Elminster Open Discussion

For the discussion of general topics about the game.
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Lirith
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Elminster Open Discussion

Post by Lirith » Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:26 am

Edit by Talos: Reserving this spot for discussion around the Elminster Open, leaving the main thread for the recording of bouts.
Thoril wrote:Logged the bout as best I could, my client is a pos when it comes to scrolling history.
I love reading these logs. Does anyone else have the initial spar rounds to add?

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Re: The Elminster Open

Post by Rakthar » Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:41 am

Just posting to concede my victory against ibrech since i won by using a spell that it didn't dawn on me was too OP, illusory pit.
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Re: The Elminster Open

Post by Ailyn » Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:52 am

Rakthar wrote:Just posting to concede my victory against ibrech since i won by using a spell that it didn't dawn on me was too OP, illusory pit.
'

Speaking of, going forward Illusory pit should be another banned spell. It is already known it is broken, and thus to keep things fair, not be used in a tournament setting. Also, going forward, Disintegrate should be banned too, as it is also stated somewhere that it should not be used for sparring to begin with.
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Re: The Elminster Open

Post by Rakthar » Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:05 pm

Someone gave also the option of rematching if the other party so desires, if not, i'll just concede.
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Re: The Elminster Open

Post by Alitar » Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:09 pm

I'd put the "Orb of" spells on that list since they are bugged/broken and not allowing the save they're supposed to give. With that said, the mentioned list of spells aren't yet banned so I'm not certain it's fair to concede a match over a matter of "sportsmanship" that doesn't have a ruling against it. Sure they're "dirty" spells but they're not /illegal/ spells. Just my thoughts.
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Re: The Elminster Open

Post by Rakthar » Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:14 pm

It's not about being legal/illegal, it's more about fairplay, admitting i didn't know and accepting the win does no good for the others that might fall prey to that, since it's outright broken
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Re: The Elminster Open

Post by Areia » Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:14 pm

Illusory pit should be banned (it should also be disabled completely but that's for another topic).

I'd be happy to provide logs where, more than not, orb spells miss completely and just give a free round to the opponent, so I can't bring myself to agree that there's anything wrong with them. There's a working mechanical way to avoid them, multiple spells of similar and lower level that can completely nullify them without even worrying about having to avoid, and they're no less difficult to dodge than harm or the other priestly touch spells. As my logs show, some PCs are very good at handling them. That a castter's player just happens to know what spells best harm what classes and builds is a product of quite a lot of trial and error over months and years, no bug. Areia prepared a ton of fortitude-save spells to win her first wizard bout and would do likewise in fighting thieves, while orb spells she completely eschewed because those classes happen to be good at dodging touch spells. I'm not sure anyone would suggest she avoid fortitude spells to fight wizards in the future, though. One of my fighters is positively horrible at avoiding touch spells, another is excellent at it. It's called balance between builds. Some PC make-ups are better at some things while being worse at others and vice versa.

As for disintegrate, yeah, it just does damage, enough to bring a wizard down to DYING in one shot if it hits, but just damage. There are myriad ways to avoid, resist, and recover from it, too. I like to think these sorts of events are excellent ways to see what works and what doesn't with your PC's strategies, but that's just me. It's been lots of fun so far. :)
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Re: The Elminster Open

Post by Alitar » Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:02 am

The issue with the "Orb of" spells lies with them not functioning as they're supposed to. They're fourth level spells that shut out any character who's touch AC isn't huge. Hit is meant to cause damage and make the target roll save vs the secondary affect, as it stands hit just causes that second effect automatically on hit, without a save. A fourth level spell that all but auto-hits most any cleric or fighter and blinds them for the whole fight? Or stuns them?
Don't know how long the stun lasts, but either way it's function is off the mark.
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Re: Elminster Open Discussion

Post by Simossus » Sat Oct 07, 2017 5:49 am

Bug Reporting threads have long been issued on 'Orb of element' but never seem to see the light of day. It's a frustrating one; but I would like to think that if it were just a simple fix, liken to what softcode our IMMs can play with, it would have been attended to.

Currently, the spells can be deemed on a scale anywhere from 'a load of phooey' to 'goshdarntootingsonuva'. The point being is that they are broken. It being a ranged touch spell doesn't exclude that fact; nor does it lessen the puckering factor when spellcraft gives you a heads up on what's heading your way.

It is a fantastic source of damage and utility in way of stunning/auto crits in its current rendition. Some of these outlier spells and prayers that raise eyebrows could also have contributed to the power creep of BBEG NPC abilities. I see the need as it were.

tldr; orb of fire/cold/acid has been known to be suspicious in veering from the normal for a spell of its level. The allowance of a massively inflated DC against a fortitude saving throw, or downright lack of a fortitude check, should not be acceptable in, at the very least, the remainder of the Elminster Open.

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Re: Elminster Open Discussion

Post by Areia » Sat Oct 07, 2017 6:33 am

So these things are in fact supposed to have a save attached to them?

The helpfiles for them don't mention that saving throws are meant to be a part of the spell like most other helpfiles do. And honestly, the only people I've ever heard complain about them are players of clerics and low-dex fighters. I always took those in conjunction to mean that the spells are working fine and the complaints are just gripes about not being good at everything. Sort of like how everyone who just happens to not play wizards or certain clerics wishes timestop had a save attached. I assumed the touch AC mechanic is meant to be the saving factor in this case, sort of like it is for harm, chill touch, etc. Highly dependant upon BAB and str/dex, both of which are super low for wizards and thus make melee- and ranged-touch spells risky to use against most save... clerics and low-dex fighters.

They're not, at least as far as I've ever seen, part of the standard spells list in D&D, so I've never seen the descs from the rulebooks (if there are any). Just did a quick web search and didn't find any descs either. I guess maybe all the above might help explain my confusion.
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Re: Elminster Open Discussion

Post by Alitar » Sat Oct 07, 2017 7:23 am

Spell compendium has them, page 151 for orb of fire according to this.

http://dnd.arkalseif.info/spells/spell- ... index.html
This will explain why the griping. Also, it "dazes" but we don't have that here. Dazing is way lighter a pain than stunning as well.
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Re: Elminster Open Discussion

Post by Areia » Sat Oct 07, 2017 7:46 am

And voila, my mind is changed. Funny how easy it is to make people see your side when namecalling and random other bashing is avoided in favor of civil and substantive discussion, huh Hrosskell? :D

Thanks. Alitar. I think they should be banned, as while the damage portion of the spells works as intended, the secondary effects seem, as Sim said, either incredibly difficult to save against or outright missing (my guess being the latter), thus giving an advantage to conjurers and other wizards against PCs of high fortitude that they should not have.

I'll post a suggestion elsewhere regarding the spells and their helpfiles. Like I mentioned, I think a lot of my misconception came from their being not standard spells and the helpfiles not being clear.

Thanks again, Alitar. :)
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Re: Elminster Open Discussion

Post by Yemin » Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:39 pm

In my oppinion there is o such thing as a dirty spell. If its broken enough and has been reported multiple times as all spells apart from disintegrate in this thread mentioned so far have been. And the Staff are still allowing us to use them, I'm inclined to simply say tough luck.

The FK versions of spells differ wildly to the actual spells original form, earth reaver being one. The orbs, illusory pit, acid fog etc. This opinion doesn't reflect on what I think the spells SHOULD actually funtion like, but in context of their use in a contest of whom is the strongest. It becomes a growing source of distaste to allow a class to enter it and then begin nit picking at its rough edges. Unfortunately wizards have a lot of rough edges for competitions like this. Its why ICly, my main wizard almost never spars and certainly doesn't enter contests like this.

I Personally thought Aldren was it? staing out was a wise move since he stated his reasons were exactly this.

In short, this is an excellent source and evidence for why these spells should be changed, fixed or removed, but by no means is it cosure to start banning spells and abilities once the competition has begun
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Re: Elminster Open Discussion

Post by Skylar » Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:40 pm

Yemin wrote:And the Staff are still allowing us to use them, I'm inclined to simply say tough luck.
They're not, in this instance.
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Re: Elminster Open Discussion

Post by Yemin » Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:22 pm

My mistake, I wasn't aware they had been.

Fair enough.
I trained up double-edged bananas because the uber-plantain of doom I scored from the beehive quest was the best weapon in the game. Now it's being treated like a bug and they have gimped its damage! That's not fair! My character is ruined!

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Re: Elminster Open Discussion

Post by Areia » Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:51 am

I haven't actually seen where staff has said it's been made illegal? Either in the tourney or in regular play in general. Might have just missed it, though.

But yeah, that's sort of one reason Areia will likely be dropping out, that people tend to pick on powerful wizards. a lot. for things that aren't the wizard's fault or, most times, aren't even known to be "dirty".
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Re: Elminster Open Discussion

Post by Ailyn » Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:56 am

Really, the only spells that should be removed from a tournament are the instant death(obvious reasons), Invisibility(free actions of buffs while a fighter just stands there), illusory pit(again, opponent forced to do nothing all match and almost no save against it). Limiting time stop to one per match for buffing is fine and considering I have never even seen it used, no issues with it. These are just my own opinions though after hearing everything. They may or may not matter.
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Re: Elminster Open Discussion

Post by Alitar » Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:49 am

Illusory pit was made illegal in the tournament, the others were not.
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Re: Elminster Open Discussion

Post by Yemin » Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:21 pm

Ailyn wrote:These are just my own opinions though after hearing everything. They may or may not matter.
Opinions always matter to me at least, whether they are contrary or supportive of my own.
I trained up double-edged bananas because the uber-plantain of doom I scored from the beehive quest was the best weapon in the game. Now it's being treated like a bug and they have gimped its damage! That's not fair! My character is ruined!

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Re: Elminster Open Discussion

Post by Hrosskell » Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:36 pm

Alitar wrote:Illusory pit was made illegal in the tournament, the others were not.
Cite this, if you will.
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