Spell Power and Specialist Wizards

[Hviti]

With the introduction of spell power, a mage can now come close to equaling a specialist at any spell. With the introduction of a new teaching system, they will be able teach any of their spells, a wider range than specialist have access to. Specialists already have their nonguild spells capped below those of a mage. This leads to a question: why be a specialist? Could specialists have access to feats within their own school or their own "version" of spell power for their own school?

[Tavik]

I thought about this too. Being a specialist these days really doesn't feel that special. I recognize that specialists do get the extra spell slots, but frankly...I'd give those up in a heartbeat in exchange for the versatility and lack of limits that a mage offers. I think most people are doing this as well (which makes perfect sense). Hviti, I like the idea of adding in specialists own versions of spell power, but I disagree with the feat option. Adding in those sorts of feats are going to require that those feats be taken in order to distinguish one's self from the mages. This means you have fewer feats with which to work which again gives the advantage to the mages. Also, speaking selfishly here a moment, those of us who are already lvl 50 will not have the opportunity to gain such feats which pretty much leaves us worthless.

[Tobias]

they could be like job abilities that you gain at certain levels. Like most classes have in table top.

[Tempus]

You appear to have forgotten that sauce for the goose is also sauce for the gander...

One side effect of this change is that the penalty for mages and specialists casting 'out of school' spells is reduced. I produced the following graphs when we were discussing this change to illustrate the differences:





As you can hopefully see, specialists casting spells from outside their school gain significantly, being able to cast a L9 spell with an ECL of 19 at level 50 as opposed to a maximum of 11 at the moment. Mages gain slightly less, but are still able to cast L9 spells with an ECL of 21 compared to 16 at the moment.

Therefore, for spells which they can cast, specialists gained more than mages in absolute terms. Specialists are still the only people who can grandmaster relevant spells - for some spells this is a significant distinction.

[Hviti]

As you can hopefully see, specialists casting spells from outside their school gain significantly, being able to cast a L9 spell with an ECL of 19 at level 50 as opposed to a maximum of 11 at the moment. Mages gain slightly less, but are still able to cast L9 spells with an ECL of 21 compared to 16 at the moment.

Therefore, for spells which they can cast, specialists gained more than mages in absolute terms. Specialists are still the only people who can grandmaster relevant spells - for some spells this is a significant distinction.

Doesn't that mean that mages still cast at a higher ECL than specialists? 21 to 19 for L9 spells and higher overall along every level? Effectively, making them a "higher caster level" over more spells?

I thought spell power made GMed spells a much less significant distinction.

[Tempus]

Doesn't that mean that mages still cast at a higher ECL than specialists? 21 to 19 for L9 spells and higher overall along every level? Effectively, making them a "higher caster level" over more spells?

Yes it does - why shouldn't mages have a higher caster level over there more general spell list? The price you pay for specialising is that you are not so good at spells outside your chosen school. If you want to be a jack-of-all-trades rather than an artisan, the mage school is the one for you. But you will never be as good at anything as someone who dedicates more of their study to a particular area.

I thought spell power made GMed spells a much less significant distinction.

It does - see the graphs above . But it can still be significant (just less than before).

[Nysan]

Mountains out of mole hills a bit here. Mages still cannot GM anything so that means a specialist's GM spell will be superior to a mage's max spell level. Far as I can tell, this change increases everyone's spell power almost equally. End of the day, mages are still the same as before; they can do alot but not at the same damage or duration of a specialist.

My necromancer's chill touch is extra chilly lately, seems fine to me.

[Jaenoic]

I think what Hviti is trying to say is that the benefits of a mage greatly outweigh the benefits of a specialist. The draw of a specialist has been decreased and so there's little reason to make a specialist; instead one might as well make a mage since that class has more obvious benefits.

I think that is what he's trying to say.

[Selveem]

Specialist wizard should be able to overcome spell resistance and such easier. Part of their +1 to caster level.

[Nysan]

Those charts show specialized spells OUTSIDE the school, meaning a necromancer casting a fireball for example... unless I misread what Tempus posted. The spec school of choice spells are on different, higher levels than the ones listed, again if I read it right. Isn't that the point of specializing, being best at one school with lesser talents in other schools? Mages are not best at anything, can't GM anything. Specialized wizards will still be better at their field.

What else should specialized wizards have besides the potential for the strongest spells in their school and extra spell per slot?

[Nysan]

Specialist wizard should be able to overcome spell resistance and such easier. Part of their +1 to caster level.

Resistance expectations in their new, upcoming system... what a long discussion that would be.

[Hviti]

It does - see the graphs above . But it can still be significant (just less than before).

Exactly - thus lessening part of the point of specializing.

Edit: Also, I thought the price specialists paid for getting to cast their school's spells at higher levels was losing access to one or two other schools. Having the additional negative of lower ECLs in the lower number of other spells they can access is imo somewhat of an excessive burden.

[Dalvyn]

I would tend to agree with Spaki here.

There are 8 schools. Let's assume, for simplicity's sake that all schools have the same number of spells.

Specialists

• have 1 more slot per level [it's nice, but not terribly so, since you can stop and meditate at any time unlike on table top where you can only do that once per day]
• can GM their speciality spells [I'll write that GM -> GM to indicate that they can GM the 1st level spells (the first GM) and that they can also GM the 9th level spells (the second GM)]
• do not have any access to 2 opposed schools
• can cast the spells from the 5 remaining schools up to 23 -> 19 (meaning up to skill level 23 for spells level 1, up to skill level 19 for spells level 9).

Mages

• Can cast all their spells to 25 -> 21 (25 for 1st level, 21 for 9th level).

A numerical comparison, for what it's worth

Specialists can cast 1/8th of the spells up to 25 -> 25 (their speciality school) and 5/8th of the spells up to 23 -> 19.

An average on all that is: 17.5 -> 15, meaning that, if we consider all the spells, the average maximum ECL (for level 50 characters) is 17.5 for level 1 spells and 15 for level 9 spells.

Compare the 17.5 -> 15 with the 25 -> 21 for mages. That's quite a big difference, that even the +1 slot/level might not make up for.

[Nedylene]

Perhaps we could find a solution to make it "fair". The possibility of a feat to GM a set amount of spells outside of your school... Or +2 spell slots per level.... Or remove some of the High (8 & 9) level specialty spells from the mage guild to give those of th e specialty guild an extra edge at the high level?

[Nysan]

Rather see specialized guilds improved rather than mages reduced. Never like that 'take away to balance' mindset...reminds me of WoW too much.

[Dalvyn]

The idea of a feat is a good one I think.

That, and once teaching is in the game and scribe more common, specialists can ask other wizards to scribe the spells they can't access for them to use from the scrolls.

[Selveem]

The idea of a feat is a good one I think.

That, and once teaching is in the game and scribe more common, specialists can ask other wizards to scribe the spells they can't access for them to use from the scrolls.

I agree. A feat to GM something outside of your school. Perhaps it could have a wisdom requirement, too? You know, the ability to retain something like that...

[Nedylene]

Personally as a feat I would like it to allow you to GM a "group" of spells such as one other school of magic as well as your specialty school.

[Tavik]

Would there be any sort of allowance made for those of us who are already lvl 50 and have used all our feat points? Could we, perhaps, request that we lose one feat we do have so we can get the point back to use on the new feat?

(edited because I thought my tone was unfriendly)

[Dalvyn]

You can exchange glory points for feat points if something like this is ever brought to the game.

Watch out though ... it's always possible that we introduce much more interesting uses for glory points in the future. (I, for one, think that those who spent all their glories to get stat points made a very bad choice ... but every player manages his/her character(s) as they want).