Wizard Specialists - Barred Schools

Hviti · Post by **Hviti** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:57 am

Hi, I have a couple of questions about specialist wizards and barred schools:

Where does the information on barred schools for specialist wizards come from? I can't find it in the d20srd for some reason.

Why is there one guild (evocation) which has two barred schools, but all the others only have one?

Kelemvor · Post by **Kelemvor** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:44 am

I believe that the original concept of opposing schools is from the 2nd edition Player Handbook

In that incarnation

Abjurer opposes Transmutation, Illusion
Conjurer opposes Divination, Invocation
Diviner opposes Conjuration
Enchanter opposes Invocation, Necromancy
Illusionist opposes Necromancy, Invocation, Abjuration
Invoker opposes Enchantment, Conjuration
Necromancer opposes Illusion, Enchantment
Transmuter opposes Abjuration, Necromancy

With fewer schools and spellsets, this was worked slightly differently when introduced on the MUD. It was also amended when the spell system was upgraded last year.

For exact details of what method was used in that most recent spell upgrade, you'll need a response from Dalvyn, Mask or Kregor though

Hviti · Post by **Hviti** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:05 pm

The only guild on that list that has their full restrictions is evocation; is there a particular reason it's the only one with two barred schools?

Kelemvor · Post by **Kelemvor** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:47 pm

As I said, you will need to wait for a more complete answer.

I appreciate this is of particular interest to anyone who plays an invoker, but patience...

Selveem · Post by **Selveem** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 1:44 pm

I believe I know the answer to this one, let me explain:

With the conception of Zareth, who was born to be a wizard of the Invoker's school, many were wary of his seemingly innate knack for deciphering and performing magic. So impressive were his abilities even in his youth, his elders were filled with envy and arrogant jealousy.

During these years, the wizards of many schools began attempting to close their doors to him. It was the Church of Oghma and the Church of Mystra that began feeding his desire to evolve his abilities.

After a number of years, a school, "The School of Wonder," accepted his admittance. Having heard nothing from him and his disuse of his noble sirname - he was just as anonymous as any other passing face.

They trained him to the best of his abilities. He pored over every text with scrutiny, "This is good... but I can do better." It was this same attitude that allowed him to excel quickly. Not based solely on his ability, but because he was nearly unbearable most of the time as few understand the conceited nature of the blue-blooded child.

As his mastery of the craft excelled towards perfection, the Gods became acutely aware of the power that Zareth was able to manifest through the Weave. Conspiracy amongst the Gods and the final bribery of Shar, it was placed into the head of Arken that those he taught should conduct themselves in a higher caste than that of the rival guilds. For they would bar one school, but to prove superiority, the Invokers should decline two.

And thus it was Shar that granted peace amongst the Gods. The secrets are kept, mortals left in their place, and risk of ascension to Immortality was abated.

But Shar got something else.. More than the bartered-for contract..

Hviti · Post by **Hviti** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:13 pm

Kelemvor wrote:As I said, you will need to wait for a more complete answer.

I appreciate this is of particular interest to anyone who plays an invoker, but patience...

Yes; I wasn't intending to repeat the first question. Rather, I was attempting to add to the question based on the information you provided. My apologies for any confusion on that score.

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 4:30 pm

Check here?

All specialists on FK should have 2 schools of opposition; if someone only have one, then it's most likely a bug.

Selveem · Post by **Selveem** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 4:37 pm

Dalvyn wrote:Check here?

All specialists on FK should have 2 schools of opposition; if someone only have one, then it's most likely a bug.

I thought this was intentional because FK is fairly limited in many of the spells we have and the ability to code them so they are useful in the FK world?

Enig · Post by **Enig** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:03 pm

As much as it saddens me to do so, I feel obligated to fess up (well, it's not as if I was hiding it, I guess!

) Anyways, I can't speak for any of the other specialist guilds, but abjurers are only barred from transmutation.

Hviti · Post by **Hviti** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:09 pm

Dalvyn wrote:Check here?

All specialists on FK should have 2 schools of opposition; if someone only have one, then it's most likely a bug.

As per the wizard helpfiles...all schools except for invokers have only 1 barred school.

Hviti · Post by **Hviti** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:14 pm

Selveem wrote:
Dalvyn wrote:Check here?

All specialists on FK should have 2 schools of opposition; if someone only have one, then it's most likely a bug.
I thought this was intentional because FK is fairly limited in many of the spells we have and the ability to code them so they are useful in the FK world?

...then why should invokers get the extra limit/penalty?

Selveem · Post by **Selveem** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:13 pm

Hviti wrote:
Selveem wrote: I thought this was intentional because FK is fairly limited in many of the spells we have and the ability to code them so they are useful in the FK world?
...then why should invokers get the extra limit/penalty?

My apologies, I might not have been clear enough. I was basically saying that I thought it was a bug that Invokers are barred from 2 and others are only barred from one.

Didn't mean to confuse.

At this point, I don't know if it's feasible to impose the same limitations on other specialist groups. As it stands, there is less reason to choose specialist wizards above mages, but... In the future, if/when the bonuses to overcome spell resistance is factored in.. it may be worth it.

I can't really cast my vote as to what I think should be done, since I have an Invoker. But my suggestion would be to open an additional school for them. I know Enchanters can't cast Evocation, maybe Invokers can't cast Enchantments? I dunno.

Tavik · Post by **Tavik** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:45 pm

Invokers, don't feel left out! Transmuters are barred from both their opposed schools as well (abjuration and necromancy).

Tempus · Post by **Tempus** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:05 pm

As stated by Dalvyn, every specialism should be barred from two opposing schools. If the helpfiles say otherwise they are most likely wrong - unless someone of a given school can show me a spell which they have access to and shouldn't (that would be most appreciated).

Enig · Post by **Enig** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:11 pm

Tempus wrote:As stated by Dalvyn, every specialism should be barred from two opposing schools. If the helpfiles say otherwise they are most likely wrong - unless someone of a given school can show me a spell which they have access to and shouldn't (that would be most appreciated).

At the moment Enig has access to every illusion spell through the first five spell circles. He can't cast from six and up yet so I can't speak for them, but I'd hazard to guess that they're available to abjurers too. That said, the only spells he can't use are from the transmutation sphere, which is consistent with the help file. I'm quite certain he actually has access to illusion spells, because he uses them fairly frequently.

Incidentally, I, of course, was under the impression that abjurers were only supposed to be barred from transmutation. If it's decided for certain that they shouldn't use transmutation or illusion, I'm sure the lot of us (all two of us, as far as I know) will be happy enough to cut out the illusions.

Hviti · Post by **Hviti** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:39 pm

Which two schools is each guild supposed be be barred from in FK?
As far as I can make out, these are the currently barred schools:

Invocation: Conjuration and Enchantment
Transmutation: Abjuration and Necromancy
Abjuration: Transmutation and Illusion (Illusion not currently barred)
Conjuration: Evocation and ? (Divination according to the previous post)
Illusion: ? (Necromancy, Evocation, and Abjuration according to the previous post)
Necromancy: ? (Illusion and Enchantment according to the previous post)
Enchantment: Evocation and ? (Necromancy according the previous post)

Conjurers
Illusionists
Necromancers
Enchanters

Could members of these guilds please confirm whether or not they have their proper barred schools?

Kregor · Post by **Kregor** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 12:56 am

As touched upon earlier, when we upgraded the spell system in the 3.0 release of FKMud, we discussed the way to best handle opposition schools. The simplest solution, though divergent from core 3E, was to go by 2nd edition preset schools of opposition. Clerics had their domains set by their deity choice, rather than selecting them, another divergent, so, why not.

As to what the opposition schools were, basically the schools oppose each other in a compass type fashion, to figure out the opposition schools, you take the one directly across the compass, plus the school one tick clockwise. (How's that for geeky?)

Doing that, you come up with the list directly above, however, which is, in fact:

Invocation: Conjuration and Enchantment
Transmutation: Abjuration and Necromancy
Abjuration: Transmutation and Illusion
Conjuration: Evocation and Divination
Illusion: Necromancy, Evocation, and Abjuration
Necromancy: Illusion and Enchantment
Enchantment: Evocation and Necromancy

Divination (which we have no Diviner's guild because, quite frankly, the bulk of high-level divination spells are things you just can't put into code.) Would only have one opposition, because of the mechanincs that actually, ALL wizards, even Conjurers, could cast "lesser" divination, ie, those of 3rd level or lower, so the advantage wasn't as big for a specialist of the school. (That, and I really think it was for the sake of hey, Johnny the Diviner can predict the future, but he lost half the offensive and and all the defensive spells off his spell list... between conjuration and abjuration, that's almost all of them.)

But wait, there's one with THREE oppositions. The only logical explanation I can come up with this is, when the move from 1st ed to 2nd ed came along, they had just made the transition from Illusionists being a stand-alone class of their own, to just being a specialty school for a regular wizard (hence, the reason for the murder of Liera in FR canon). Well, in the process, TSR wrapped a whole bunch of really GOOD illusionist spells into the wizard spell list, so Illusionists had a very potent mix of pseudo-offensive, pseudo-protective, and utilitarian spells. So, in my mind, it was TSR making a balancing decision because the other schools had a hack job devoted to them in comparison (which the move to 2nd edition, IMO, pretty much was, simply for the sake of stirring up core book sales again).

Anyway, this is a problem, if three oppositions are still the de facto on FKMud (I cannot recall, and we need to check! *nudges*). Because the spell lists on FKMud, and 3E D&D for that matter, are no longer heavily weighted for the illusionist (Phantasmal killer and Weird notwithstanding). We are subjecting the illusionists to a coded disadvantage if they are opposing three schools, and it really just needs to be a little closer to 3E.

Hviti · Post by **Hviti** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 1:32 am

Kregor wrote:Invocation: Conjuration and Enchantment
Transmutation: Abjuration and Necromancy
Abjuration: Transmutation and Illusion
Conjuration: Evocation and Divination
Illusion: Necromancy, Evocation, and Abjuration
Necromancy: Illusion and Enchantment
Enchantment: Evocation and Necromancy

So, are those (except for the illusionists') how the barred schools should be in FK?
Furthermore, is there a way to confirm whether or not they are indeed set in that way?

Kregor · Post by **Kregor** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 4:56 am

Marty can

Jaenoic · Post by **Jaenoic** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 5:01 pm

For what my opinion's worth, I don't think we should be adding more restrictions to specialty wizards. As outlined in another post they already are lacking as much draw as the mage class; with the addition of an extra restricted school who would want to play a specialty wizard instead of a mage?