Punch!

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Dranso
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Punch!

Post by Dranso » Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:02 am

I'm suggesting that punch no longer takes a round for itself. Since you are already holding a weapon and a shield I always thought that when my player used the skill punch that he was punching with his hand that had a sword clenched in it. I think that since he already knows second-fourth attack that when he used the punch skill that he would do a 1st attack then follow it up with a punch no longer being able to use second-fourth attack for that round.

Essentially the punch skill would sacrifice 2nd-5th attacks instead of sacrificing the whole round.

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Re: Punch!

Post by Kinni » Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:10 am

Kick too, yes?
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Re: Punch!

Post by Dranso » Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:41 am

I could see kick as a possibility. With punch I would invision it as you slash with your sword once and as your second attack you punch then lose 3rd-5th attack. Kick might be a little more different in the fact that you were already going to follow up that 1st attack with that arm anyway. But I think I could see you following up a 1st attack with a kick. Makes sense.

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Re: Punch!

Post by Rhangalas » Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:49 am

Drizzt is reknowned for kicking after a double cross down parry, so it's been done in canon, but he's a beast... so beastly, in fact, that he invented the maneuver. *shrug*

I don't play meatshields, but I don't see how it could hurt the game.
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Re: Punch!

Post by Kallias » Fri Jun 21, 2013 2:53 am

Just for the record - fiction of any kind has no bearing on canon, other than flavor text.

Edited: Obviously it's all fiction. The stories told in the fantasy novels aren't specifically canon, though.
Last edited by Kallias on Fri Jun 21, 2013 10:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Punch!

Post by Vibius » Fri Jun 21, 2013 7:43 am

Really, there is little use for punch/kick now.

Perhaps these skills could be retooled and turned the damage in what would be grapple/trip or a version that could translate well to a MUD.

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Re: Punch!

Post by Zorinar » Sun Jun 23, 2013 3:19 pm

Punch and Kick do appear to be, on their face, worthless skills now for all classes. *As long as I am understanding that they replace the entire round and do less damage than the weapon hits for that round* (And they seem to not connect a whole lot with the enemy)

In many muds these skills do an extra attack in the round, giving a small damage bonus for the fighter like classes. Since they completely replace the round of attacks here, though, they are really throw away skills.

It would be interesting for fighters if these skills at least forced a concentration check on their enemies casting spells. (or do they already do that?) This would give fighters a tool in their toolbox for fighting spell casters. It might not make a huge difference, but it would be something they could, perhaps, play around with. Additionally, Kick and/or punch could even force a dazed effect for one or two rounds like the flare spell.
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Re: Punch!

Post by Harroghty » Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:50 pm

Punch and kick were once very useful. Now they are just cool if you want to have an unarmed spar. The answer, I think, is not necessarily to modify the skills themselves but to add an unarmed feat tree. The unarmed feet tree would give another potential path for warriors (i.e. another option besides sword and shield, two-handed, dual-wield, mounted combat, etc.) and it could allow people to maybe make something like a monk out of a priest.

These skills should not be peculiar to fighters or even warriors because anyone can throw a punch, but there should be ways that certain classes can get more out of them. I believe that feats would be a good way to accomplish that.
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Unarmed Feats

Post by Rhangalas » Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:43 am

All of these are from the Modern SRD, but most of them have similar - if not exact - replications in FR.

Defensive Martial Arts

Benefit: The character gains a +1 dodge bonus to Defense against melee attacks, while unarmed.

Special: A condition that makes the character lose his or her Dexterity bonus to Defense also makes the character lose dodge bonuses. Also, dodge bonuses stack, unlike most other types of bonuses.

Combat Martial Arts

Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.

Benefit: With an unarmed strike, the character deals lethal or nonlethal damage (the character’s choice) equal to 1d4 + the character’s Strength modifier. The character’s unarmed attacks count as armed, which means that opponents do not get attacks of opportunity when the character attacks them unarmed. The character may make attacks of opportunity against opponents who provoke such attacks.

Improved Combat Martial Arts

Prerequisites: Combat Martial Arts, base attack bonus +4.

Benefit: The character’s threat range on an unarmed strike improves to 19–20.

Advanced Combat Martial Arts

Prerequisites: Combat Martial Arts, Improved Combat Martial Arts, base attack bonus +8.

Benefit: When the character scores a critical hit on an opponent with an unarmed strike, the character deals triple damage.

Brawl

Benefit: When making an unarmed attack, the character receives a +1 competence bonus on attack rolls, and the character deals nonlethal damage equal to 1d6 + his or her Strength modifier.

Improved Brawl

Prerequisites: Brawl, base attack bonus +3.

Benefit: When making an unarmed attack, the character receives a +2 competence bonus on his or her attack roll, and the character deals nonlethal damage equal to 1d8 + the character’s Strength modifier.

Knockout Punch

Prerequisites: Brawl, base attack bonus +3.

Benefit: When making the character’s first unarmed attack against a flat-footed opponent, treat a successful attack as a critical hit. This damage is nonlethal damage.

Improved Knockout Punch

Prerequisites: Brawl, Knockout Punch, base attack bonus +6.

Benefit: When making the character’s first unarmed attack against a flat-footed opponent, treat a successful attack as a critical hit. This critical hit deals triple damage. The damage is nonlethal damage.

Special: Even if the character has the ability to treat unarmed damage as lethal damage, the damage from a knockout punch is always nonlethal.

Anyways... probably not THAT useful since it isn't from FR setting, but I thought I'd share it anyways.
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Re: Punch!

Post by Anguin » Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:00 pm

I've been thinking about the idea of an unarmed feat tree - or, more specifically, a martial arts feat tree. I like the idea a lot. I'm not sure if they would make the punch and kick skills more useful (especially since priests don't get those skills), but I'm sure someone could find a way to adapt them.

I thought it would be interesting if various monasteries like St. Ramedar's or Teesha Than offered martial arts styles as feats to qualified characters - say, something like...
Crane Style
Improved Crane Style
Expert Crane Style
Master Crane Style
Each feat would have the previous tier as a prerequisite and could offer bonuses like improved damage without a weapon, improved AC without armor, adding Wisdom bonuses to AC or damage, improved saving throws, and things like that. The style would be activated buy using the config command - that is, config +crane style (or something like that).

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Re: Punch!

Post by Rhangalas » Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:10 pm

This could pave the way for a cleric subclass - monk. Since most of a monks abilities are just that, natural abilities, it might not be too hard to adapt existing spells to reflect these skills and some feat trees to optimize with. There is already a Mind Over Body feat. *wink-hint*
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Re: Punch!

Post by Baeus » Sat Apr 19, 2014 10:58 pm

Punch and Kick – Other than RP and diversity in attack types, I don’t see a reason to opt for these attacks, as opposed to bashing or taking multiple strikes. I think they should have special functionality instead and also love the idea of perhaps forcing a concentration check, but doesn’t being in combat already do that. Not sure what is or isn’t possible with the coding but I’ll shoot this idea out anyway. What about the following:

This is how I understand the process thus far: The Improved Brawling feat removes the attack of opportunity penalty, the brawl skill is your accuracy with the current unarmed combat system and punch is a separate attack skill with no real utility. Launching unarmed strikes in combat when you have a melee weapon in your hand is either to play with and humiliate the opponent or to exploit an opportune opening. For example, your opponent has overstruck and is in a position where you have the opportunity to deliver a quick punch before they can recover their balance, position or guard, but not enough time to launch a full weapon strike. Also, instead of calling it, “Punch” Brawler’s Strike opens up smote possibilities for kneeing, elbow strikes, head butts, AND punching.

Smote spins as he slaps away the attack from $Leon with his weapon, steps past and punches with its hilt.

Your unarmed strike bashes Leon and brutalizes his left arm!

You elude to the fact that combatants mix it up during a fight as opposed to punch, punch, punch. This is also something you would do every once in a while, as there is no guarantee you can connect with the head and force a stun roll. Sacrificing round after round of multiple attacks will cost you a battle against an evenly matched foe.

Brawler’s Strike – (Prerequisites: Level 10 Improved Brawling Journeyman) This skill consists of exploiting your enemy’s position to get in close and deliver strikes with knees, elbows punches and kicks. A +1 to hit is granted to this attack (this simulates you waiting for a close, weak point in the opponents guard before striking. If you miss the foe was skilled enough to see the mistake and recover). If the hit location is the head the target must make a constitution save (DC = 10 + str mod + half skill level) or be stunned for two rounds.
Synergy: Characters with the feat, “Weapon Finesse” may substitute their strength stat modifier with that of their dexterity for the purposes of the saving throw DC and the initial to hit of the strike.

Improved Brawler’s Strike – (Prerequisites: Level 30, Master Improved Brawling, Journeyman Brawler’s Strike) Similar to the skill, “Unarmed Strike” except that the bonus to hit is a +2 and the damage increases. Furthermore, the stun save must be made if the head or torso is struck.

Synergy: Characters with the feat, “Weapon Finesse” may substitute their strength stat modifier with that of their dexterity for the purposes of the saving throw DC and the initial to hit of the strike.

Tactical use for Unarmed Strike: If I was having a hard time landing standard strikes on an opponent I might throw these more often for the bonus to hit. Otherwise, a chance at a two round stun might be worth sacrificing multiple attacks. This also gives non shield users a somewhat viable stun after a considerable amount of training and dedicated skill and feat paths.

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Re: Punch!

Post by Timaeus » Sun Apr 20, 2014 10:08 pm

If you're going to make this a skill then it will be open without any prerequisites which is fine. You could then make the Improved Brawlers Strike a feat or even two with a Greater Brawler's Strike which is how I would approach this.

Brawlers Strike
(Replaces Punch Skill in the Warrior/Paladin/Ranger Tree, and is given to Bards and Thieves)
Simple and pretty much the way punch is coded now.

Improved Brawlers Strike Feat
(Prerequisites Level 20, Journeyman Brawlers Strike skill level, Improved Brawling Feat)
Baeus wrote:This skill consists of exploiting your enemy’s position to get in close and deliver strikes with knees, elbows punches and kicks. A +1 to hit is granted to this attack (this simulates you waiting for a close, weak point in the opponents guard before striking. If you miss the foe was skilled enough to see the mistake and recover). If the hit location is the head the target must make a constitution save (DC = 10 + str mod + half skill level) or be stunned for two rounds.
For the DC it should also be modified by half of the defenders skill level in Brawlers Strike
(DC=10+ str mod +half attackers skill - half defenders skill)
Baeus wrote:Synergy: Characters with the feat, “Weapon Finesse” may substitute their strength stat modifier with that of their dexterity for the purposes of the saving throw DC and the initial to hit of the strike.
I disagree with this, Weapon Finesse should only substitute the dexterity modifier to hit instead of the strength modifier for the to hit roll, damage would remain strength based much like it is for weapons with this feat.


Greater Brawler’s Strike
(Prerequisites: Level 40, Expert Brawler’s Strike skill level, Improved Brawling Feat, Improved Brawlers Strike Feat)
Similar to the feat "Improved Brawlers Strike” except that the bonus to hit is a +2 and there is a +3 to damage. Chance of stun remains only for head hits. DC gets a bonus.
(DC=15+ str mod +half attackers skill - half defenders skill)
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Re: Punch!

Post by Baeus » Sun Apr 20, 2014 10:54 pm

Timaeus wrote: I disagree with this, Weapon Finesse should only substitute the dexterity modifier to hit instead of the strength modifier for the to hit roll, damage would remain strength based much like it is for weapons with this feat.
I think we are talking about the same thing here. The way weapon finesse works here as well as 3.5 is that instead of a strength modifier adding to the base attack value to determine whether or not a strike lands, the dexterity modifier is used instead. Damage bonus is still determined by strength alone.

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