Crafting Anew

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hasryn
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Crafting Anew

Post by hasryn » Fri Feb 28, 2014 6:40 am

It's been awhile since crafting has been changed to its newer system, and Mask fisked some of the bugs in it and enhanced it with auto-continue with coin in your inventory. But the gains are too low. I was talking to a dwarven priest and he said it took 3 years to get a gain in it and pretty far up the skill ladder with it.(previous skill training was in old system so that's moot) Honestly it should take a year tops to gm a trade. It's there for rp and utility. It taking that much longer than any other kind of skill to gm is just a bit off. So far I've gotten two gains in quite a few months since I started using weapon smithing and the gains are very very low. At higher levels it should be far higher seeing as you succeed more. But it seems to get slower and slower.

Also even if we can't get a system to enchant jewelry/armor/weapons made with these crafts perhaps having a one shot for each skill with a grandmaster to craft one magical piece. Kind of Aegis fang with bruenor once he made his MAster work piece. It could require hefty components we'd have to search out.

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Re: Crafting Anew

Post by Eechi » Fri Feb 28, 2014 3:13 pm

I like this idea as I feel with players crafting items and the amount of time and energy it takes to build it up to grand master, they should be able to create the best armour in the game.

Instead of running around looking for an NPC that sells the best set or doing quests until the piece you want drops, the extra added layer of having a player be able to craft something would add to the game.

I realize that some players are in the game that can create GM armour but they are very few and far between as I understand it.

Also the idea of being able to craft GM armour and be able to enhance it with the use of another trade such as Enchanting... so adding a AC modifier, or adding a strength modifier.. would add another layer to crafting.

So be able to create the best set of armour in the game would require a GM armoursmith and a GM enchanter and my thought would be you don't need to be both.. so a GM armoursmith could make the armour and take it to a GM enchanter to put the enchant on it.

Just an idea to help players build the set of armour they want to go with their class or play style.

I suppose the problem with this could be your friends craft and enchant an amazing set of armour and put it on your newbie character to power level. It can also take away from the idea that building up your armour is a large part of the game as you need to search for specific pieces of armour to go with your class.

Could we make it so GM armour and weapons can only be used by level 50 characters? this way you go through the process of leveling your character and building a set of armour and than have the option to swap pieces of gear from players into spots you need them at top level.

Just throwing out ideas here.

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Re: Crafting Anew

Post by Benorf » Fri Feb 28, 2014 4:32 pm

I think I had thrown out an idea a while back of using glory as part of an enchanting process.

I think that the concern with these ideas is it will flood the market with amazing armor, and rendering RMI stuff null. However, if enchanting required the use of glory, which is mostly a finite resource, it would avoid that.

That being said, I like the idea of GM'd armor being amazing and requiring level 50 to use (Though I don't know how you would explain it in game). And if there was an NPC enchanter that required you to do a quest and then spend glory to personalize and enchant an item, it could create some cool flair for characters, Allowing you to specialize in a specific way.
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Re: Crafting Anew

Post by Timaeus » Fri Feb 28, 2014 6:35 pm

Hasryn misquoted, it has taken over 14 months to gain 3 increases skill levels adept3 to expert1 expert2 and expert3 where it currently rests and over a thousand platinum with 18 int and 18 wis and trade focus armorsmith feat on the character in question. It should not take several years of rarely missing out on offline crafting days to reach GM in a trade that for other than RP purposes gives no benefits in code over npc bought items. A GM armorsmith can craft masterwork full plate that is identical to full plate on several vendors. Some materials will alter the dex bonus allowed by one.

Outside the skill increase rate there are other issues with crafting that make it unwieldy and a less than worthwhile endeavor that is something to be dreaded rather than enjoyed. I will highlight a few of them for now and go into detail when I have more time this weekend.
  • Cost - Why a large platinum cost for crafting items? The time investments are already significant to gather the raw materials.
    Ingot/Ore Quality - There are too many levels of ore and ingot quality 3 is more than suitable. Quality should be more focused on the crafters skill level in the appropriate trade.
    Ingot/Ore Finding - Finding veins of higher grade ores is too low of a chance, mining trade feat should increase the chance to find higher level ores.
    Mining Success Rates - At GM mining the success rate for extracting ore is less than 25%, far too low. This is with trade focus mining feat.
    Items craftable - Crafts should allow more items to be made such as bags for leatherworking, return of crates/boxes/chests for woodworking.
    Leatherworking - Should not require multiple hides per item, one per item is realistic given the animals that can produce skins.
    Enchantable Items - There should be some way to enchant items that are made by Grandmaster crafters. Limiting the number of enchantable items a crafter can produce should be implemented along with the ability to enchant items. One per month or a lifetime cap based on a stat like charisma are a couple of ideas towards that goal.
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Re: Crafting Anew

Post by Selveem » Fri Feb 28, 2014 6:46 pm

Being one of those people who are already Master and are working to GM, it's really difficult for me to gauge the changes since it was last modified.

What I can tell you is that Werthic, my crafter, has 797 hours of _playing time_ which have mostly been with crafting with the old system since the new system basically just makes me stay logged off of him.

I dislike the new system because it's fake investment. People have said in the past, "Well sitting around and just crafting the entire time is boring." Yeah, maybe so, but not playing your crafting character just to ensure that what little gains there are to be had are gotten is even more boring.

There's no reason for me to play my crafter beyond obtaining materials, using the construct command, and logging off.

Speaking of which, why are "materials" (In-Game currency) needed just craft? What the hell did I just spend all that time mining, smelting, and re-smelting the materials for if I am paying for the materials? I'm not renting a damned hammer, because I have a hammer. I'm renting the forge? Why is that so expensive? And, if I _am_ renting the forge, I can make my own for much cheaper: tongs, hammer, slack tub, anvil, charcoal, hearth, bellows with a tuyere.. Did I miss anything? 20+ platinum when I'm using my own materials, my own hammer, my own skill? Give me a break.

And Glory, I'd rather not get started about. In my opinion, Glory should be used for really special things, not something as basic as enchanting stuff. Enchanting has its own costs; let's use them. Want a time investment, too? Why not. Just please, don't make another fetch quest.

In summary:
  • I'm fine with increasing the gains.
  • I'd like an logged-in option with even higher gains if the logged-out option remains. Give me a reason to PLAY my character I'm working so hard on.
  • Stop making me mine and smelt if I just have to pay for the materials anyhow.
  • I don't give a crap about people using masterwork armors; why should anyone care?
  • Enchanting would be nice, but do not require Glory.
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Re: Crafting Anew

Post by Selveem » Fri Feb 28, 2014 6:50 pm

Aaaaaaaaand then I read the post that was created while I made mine.

Timmy makes a good point I've complained about before and would like to voice my agreement: get rid of all the stupid levels of ore and smelted metal. It serves no purpose than tedium.
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Re: Crafting Anew

Post by Hrosskell » Sat Mar 01, 2014 4:32 am

I wrote up a proposal a while back that addressed a lot of current crafting concerns in this thread. Personally I think that FK has an amazing way to build a character--but once your character arrives at end game, the only content is what you make yourself--which is great when there are other people that you mesh with around, but can even become difficult after a year or so of playing with the same people/in the same zones.

The proposal included ways to blend RP, craft, and PvE adventures in the form of "bosses," for lack of a better word. A series of high-end dungeons that ended in highly tuned fights against enemies with massive health, moderate damage, and unique interactive options could reward items used to enchant weapons/armor solely made by PC crafters. These items would eventually render RMIs useless, but it would be far easier to complete the challenges to get the items by "gearing up" in RMIs.

Then I realized I had invented WoW in 2013 and decided to scrap my proposal. x_x; That being said, it's now 2014 and I still haven't thought of a better way to bring an end-game PvE scenario, or difficult to access but rewarding enchanting, or a worthwhile goal for crafters to FK.
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Re: Crafting Anew

Post by Selveem » Sat Mar 01, 2014 2:00 pm

Ah, and: There is still no crafting option to craft armors for non-humanoids.
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Re: Crafting Anew

Post by Gwain » Sat Mar 01, 2014 7:07 pm

Construct
=========
Syntax: construct armor <location> <material> [armortype] [size] [masterwork]
Syntax: construct weapon <weapontype> <material> [size] [masterwork]
Syntax: construct arrowhead <raw material>
Syntax: construct bullet <raw material>
<Currently disabled> Syntax: construct barding <location> <material> [armortype]
Syntax: construct jewellery <ring|earrings|bracelet|necklace|tiara|torque...
...circlet|buckle|nose ring|anklet|armlet> <material> [gem]

Arrowheads are used with the fletch command to make arrows and bolts.

* Over time, an increasing number of trades will convert to the new
craft system. At present, armoursmithing and weaponsmithing are being
piloted with that system. Please see the craft process helpfile for
details.

The materials used for construct can be on the floor of the room you are
in. To specify them, you may want to use several keywords, grouped in quotes.
For example: construct armour body 'low ingot iron' 'splint mail'

For more detailed information, please see the helpfile relating to the specific
item you hope to construct:

(A) Armoursmithing (B) Craft
(C) Craft Process (D) Fletching
(E) Lapidary (F) Masterwork Items
(G) Mending (H) Tailor
(I) Weaponsmithing
The ability to create mount armour exists, its just disabled, probably because of issues that need to be hammered out or abuse. Its not as important anyway as the game no longer really supports non humanoid chars that would use this armour or need master crafted barding. There are dozens of available sets of barding, armours for mounts in the game.
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Re: Crafting Anew

Post by Grenwyn » Sat Mar 01, 2014 7:39 pm

Gwain wrote:Its not as important anyway as the game no longer really supports non humanoid chars that would use this armour or need master crafted barding. There are dozens of available sets of barding, armours for mounts in the game.
Isn't that true of PC armor as well?
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Gwain
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Re: Crafting Anew

Post by Gwain » Sat Mar 01, 2014 7:45 pm

Not according to most of the posts above mine, no :D
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Re: Crafting Anew

Post by Selveem » Sat Mar 01, 2014 8:19 pm

I want to preface this for everyone by stating that I value Gwain and all his contributions to his game. He is someone who has worked hard to bring things in the game and make special things for us.

My responses have nothing to do with him as a person but that I disagree with the some of the assertions.
Gwain wrote:The ability to create mount armour exists, its just disabled
There's no difference. If it's in-game and disabled to players, it's not "in-game." Otherwise, FK can brag that we "currently the game supports over 100 different player races" but there's only a few of them enabled for players.
Gwain wrote:[...]probably because of issues that need to be hammered out or abuse.
Abuse such as giving armor to a war fox or something? I'm really curious as to what would constitute "abuse" in this sense.

I feel like the word "abuse" gets floated around FK a lot to the point that it's lost its original meaning; in FK it seems to mean something more like "an action or concept I disagree with."

Regardless, it's not like the race files can't be locked down to what wear locations are available for different races, so I have a hard time buying that one.
Gwain wrote:Its not as important anyway as the game no longer really supports non humanoid chars that would use this armour or need master crafted barding. There are dozens of available sets of barding, armours for mounts in the game.
I concede that, at present, there are no more of these types of players being created through the system. Still, I find it difficult to accept that just because a player has a character who falls into this category and would -like- to be able to protect said character, they should be denied that opportunity just because the races are no longer available for player creation.
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Re: Crafting Anew

Post by Selveem » Sat Mar 01, 2014 8:26 pm

Gwain wrote:
Grenwyn wrote:
Gwain wrote:Its not as important anyway as the game no longer really supports non humanoid chars that would use this armour or need master crafted barding. There are dozens of available sets of barding, armours for mounts in the game.
Isn't that true of PC armor as well?
Not according to most of the posts above mine, no :D
In truth there is no -need- for crafting on FK. It's fluff and something that a few of us simply would like to do.

There are plenty of full sets of armors in the game, but that doesn't mean everyone wants to wear the same armors available to everyone else. There's something far more personal and endearing about wearing armor that your buddy crafted for you. It makes the armor, at least to me, far more valuable than that other +2 super special magical gear other people may be wearing.

Crafted gear represents a large amount of time, stubbornness, and love that have been focused on a single skill that takes far longer to raise than any other skills in the game. Even level 9 spells you at least get to utilize multiple times throughout a single in-game day.

I think it's important that we keep this in mind before dismissing the crafts as a hobbyist interest only.
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Re: Crafting Anew

Post by Kinni » Sat Mar 01, 2014 11:04 pm

I'd like to take a chance to steer things back on track to some degree.

The current armour and weapon-smithing crafts are designed in a way that, simply put, encourage people to log off their character. This strikes me as the very opposite of what a game should strive to do.

That being said, crafting is indeed a "fluff" and shows a certain devotion of players and staff alike that it is used and offered. Kudos on that note! I think the focus here needs to be on two topics:
1) reconsideration of the off-line encouraging crafting process
2) personalizing crafted pieces

On the topic of personalizing crafted pieces, I would like to see something like the following:
* Player visits an armour-smith PC for a set of finely crafted armour.
* Player then chooses to visit a jewelery/lapidary artist that can add an emblem, filigree, edging or something of the sort.
* Finally (perhaps), player takes his finely crafted and specially adorned armour to an enchanter who casts a spell and and the piece is enchanted with a random benefit, just as a random enchantment would have been supplied in RMI.

My thought it, going through this process is not unlike a quest and the random enchantment would be more in line with the RMI that is awarded from like-wise quests in game.
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Re: Crafting Anew

Post by hasryn » Sun Mar 02, 2014 9:02 pm

Aye well said Kinni. Hopefully your first point would naturally remedy the overlong way of gains in said crafts because they just aren't coming enough.

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Re: Crafting Anew

Post by Selveem » Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:58 pm

Speaking of costs of forging, I've noticed that even selling full plate armors barely makes up the cost of actually forging them (not including all the materials wasted).

It's really disheartening to craft your armor and then see this:
FK wrote:<100%hp 100m 98%mv> value cuir
Jonathon tells you 'I'd give you 2 platinum, 1 gold, 1 electrum for a full plate cuirass.'
That's with no other items for sale that were PC crafted.

There's no reason why PCs should get ripped off so badly, so I'd like to see crafted items sell for no less than 1/3 their value, ever.

-

Also, if we're going to keep five different levels of quality of ores, I really would like to see more predictable (in a positive way) results. As an example, my GM smelter smelted 19 outstanding-grade silver ores. Here were the results:

2 Outstanding-Grade Ingots
1 Superior-Grade Ingot
5 High-Grade Ingots
6 Average-Grade Ingots
5 Low-Grade Ingots

Basically, you're looking at a 90% chance at GM to decrease the quality of your smelted ore overall and 25% chance that your ore will go from the highest quality to the absolute lowest.
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Re: Crafting Anew

Post by Gwain » Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:38 am

Npc merchants have changed to mirror the actual economies of their setting in the realms, so there are a few that pay far more for treasures than others did previously.
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Re: Crafting Anew

Post by Gwain » Sun Mar 09, 2014 9:52 pm

I'd like to suggest items like gorgets for lapidary or armour design and adding cesti or knuckles for pugilism for the weapon crafting trade.
Justice is not neccesarily honourable, it is a tolerable business, in essence you tolerate honour until it impedes justice, then you do what is right.

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Re: Crafting Anew

Post by Casamir » Sun Mar 09, 2014 10:10 pm

Or seeing different weapon types in the brawling category, even if its a superficial rename of the cesti. Being able to produce spiked gauntlets, simple brass knuckles, claws, katars, or push daggers.
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Re: Crafting Anew

Post by Gwain » Fri Apr 15, 2016 2:40 am

I suppose raising this thread from the undead is a bit untimely, but here goes:

My recent foray into leatherworking:
- It takes multiple skins to make anything, and the code does not take into account realistic elements like size. For example it takes a fair amount of elephant hides to craft a small pair of gloves. - this seems to be a cut and paste of the multiple ingot crafting for the smithing trade. It's terrible because you need all your hides to be the same quality to work, unlike mining where you go room to room to get a chance at multiple pieces of metal that can be processed to the same quality. So for leather making you need the following, leather from the same type of animal and leather the same quality. But then...

- When you go and make that armour in the current system you end up with generic brown armour from any skins you use, including unique ones like dragons. The old crafting system yielded unique armours like armour of a bear hide or something else.

- Like everything in the new crafting system it's completely offline and allows for little or no smoting rp.

This is not an easy fix, it would take hard code to make it even the shadow of its former self. At this point I don't even know if it's worthwhile to fix unless its being utilized by more than one player. As it goes tanning and skinning are still fun and yield interesting pieces so that may be enough.
Justice is not neccesarily honourable, it is a tolerable business, in essence you tolerate honour until it impedes justice, then you do what is right.

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