Crafting Anew

A place to suggest new commands, feats, skills, ...
User avatar
Oengus
Sword Novice
Sword Novice
Posts: 27
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 2:04 am

Re: Crafting Anew

Post by Oengus » Thu Nov 17, 2016 4:07 am

Enchantment would be balanced if it required a base item with the enchantment to transfer to a new item. For instance if I wished to enchant a pair of +2 strength gauntlets, I would require a +2 strength item to use as a basis for the enchantment, the masterwork item to be enchanted, and the difference in cost for adding levels of enchantment. This is a little different than the Pathfinder/D&D crafting in canon, but will ensure that a flux of magical items is kept in check. Every time a new piece of equipment is enchanted, the old enchanted item is consumed in crafting.


My logic for this is the requirement to be able to produce a magic item as the basis for working enchantments. For instance to produce a work on the lowest enchantment table, the spell is often required in canon along with the cost of the enchantment process (and the radical materials to work enchanting, an enchantment kit/lab or thereabouts along with material costs). To produce greater enchantments requires that the lesser items be craftable; in essence, instead of crafting new enchantments, I propose existing enchantments be used as the component to enchant new equipment.


The trade-off is that crafting skills are not as demanding skill-point wise, which normally requires several levels of devotion just to produce a magic potion, wand, and eventually wondrous items. Instead, enchanters will be searching for the best components to work their magic with, as opposed to spending downtime just to craft. I thoroughly believe that some adventurers would not mind spending for example, 500 platinum per level of enchantment, to transfer the effect onto their own crafted gear. This customization may not be canon enchanting but it does offer a balance to keep enchantment from reaching mass-produced levels, and will allow people to continue prettying themselves. In the end that is what is most important after all: the non-essential roleplaying supplies, and to keep a party starving. Imagine if you will: necklaces of fireball made from wands, Mithril gauntlets with ogre strength, making that lucky hat truly lucky with an ioun.

To my good friend Gwain, I know your pain when it comes to a lack of crafting RP. It is few and far between when I get the chance to describe the coals blazing from red, to orange, to blue and white-hot. When I do though I certainly have a lot of fun. I tend to roleplay cleaning up and taking care of the tools more than hammering away, and at first I was a little let down I would not get the chance. That does not stop me from pretending to still work on things that will take weeks at a time when I log back in, or from jumping up and down on a cuirass to bend it around a 2x4. It would not be that hard to make a few changes to the forges in general: adding a pump bellows that described the forge heating up similar to stoking a hearth, for example. I cannot think of many changes outside of this storytelling fluff, but I do like fluff. Doesn't everyone?


To summarize I recommend:
An enchantment system involving the transference of one enchantment, onto another, destroying the original.
Cleaning up after you craft, whether you RP'ed making a mess or not.
Drink your sleep, get 8 hours of milk, stay in drugs, and don't do school.
Lay your sword unto its sheath, set down your shield, tis time to eat. Butter thy bread and slice thy wurst, rest thy boots upon the hearth! For never was a meal as fine! Bless the mead and mutton, bread and wine.

Vaemar
Sword Grand Master
Sword Grand Master
Posts: 664
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2015 11:21 am

Re: Crafting Anew

Post by Vaemar » Sat Nov 19, 2016 11:38 am

I played on a NWN persistent world where there was an original and in my opinion well done system of crafting. Essentially to enchant items it was required to gather essences and special gems. Essences were refined with alchemy skill from parts dropped from monsters, and gems were rare drops. Especially the gems required for higher enchantments were very difficult to obtain and therefore very expensive. I think we could reproduce that quite easily with components and especially some components obtained only via trades that need to be grinded, such as gems obtained through mining.

Yemin
Sword Grand Master
Sword Grand Master
Posts: 1589
Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2014 3:08 pm
Location: On the back of castle oblivion

Re: Crafting Anew

Post by Yemin » Sat Nov 19, 2016 12:12 pm

I feel that the core concept of the 3.5 magical crafting rules are a neater starting point than what's been suggested thus far.

In essence, you pay XP and gold to create what you want. Any mundaine materials are represented by the gold you pay. Staying outside of wonderous items. You generally only need a feat there which would be translated to a trade skill or spellcraft here to do it. As the crafting skill there has become a trade skill here.

Now in FK we have these materials represented as actual objects, it still boggles the mind why you stil need to pay gold. I don't really know what this gold is for. You have your ore, your own tools and in some cases your own forge or at least an unattended forge owned by no one.

I am also currently struggling to grasp why there need be all these costs for making magical armor in reference to Thurgan and Vaemar. I may be wrong and correct me if so, I think it's an attempt at balancing out the process in case of using existing magical items like magical gauntlets and leeching magic from them..., but honestly. I'd rather just pay XP, it's neater and gives people a reason to go get more of it. Plus you don't have to code different uses and acceptions for new objects like shards, gems what have you.

So, in summary, why are you suggesting we need all these special materials represented as individual objects? That's what I'm curious about mostly.
I trained up double-edged bananas because the uber-plantain of doom I scored from the beehive quest was the best weapon in the game. Now it's being treated like a bug and they have gimped its damage! That's not fair! My character is ruined!

Vaemar
Sword Grand Master
Sword Grand Master
Posts: 664
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2015 11:21 am

Re: Crafting Anew

Post by Vaemar » Sat Nov 19, 2016 12:23 pm

- Because it is consistent with how the spell component system works
- Because it is consistent with how the trades work
- Because it does not make so much sense for a retired adventurer who is now an anchanter to need to kill monsters in order to enchant magical blades.
- Because the xp + gold system is actually quite lazy, when it is not hard at all to make a better and funnier one.
- Because, last but not least, having special materials, and especially materials that are difficult or moderately boring to obtain, can stimulate interaction with a high number of other characters, from the lowbie who gets charcoal in Golden Oaks or Howling Peaks, to the svirfneblin merchant who provides Underdark materials or again with the dragonslayer who guides big expeditions into dragons' lairs, or with the hunter/miner/woodworker who can get the right hides/ore/wood for the said item. In a multiplayer game this point in particular is what we should aspire to in my humble opinion. Hence this last point alone suffices.

Yemin
Sword Grand Master
Sword Grand Master
Posts: 1589
Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2014 3:08 pm
Location: On the back of castle oblivion

Re: Crafting Anew

Post by Yemin » Sat Nov 19, 2016 1:21 pm

Vaemar wrote:- Because it is consistent with how the spell component system works
- Because it is consistent with how the trades work
- Because it does not make so much sense for a retired adventurer who is now an anchanter to need to kill monsters in order to enchant magical blades.
- Because the xp + gold system is actually quite lazy, when it is not hard at all to make a better and funnier one.
- Because, last but not least, having special materials, and especially materials that are difficult or moderately boring to obtain, can stimulate interaction with a high number of other characters, from the lowbie who gets charcoal in Golden Oaks or Howling Peaks, to the svirfneblin merchant who provides Underdark materials or again with the dragonslayer who guides big expeditions into dragons' lairs, or with the hunter/miner/woodworker who can get the right hides/ore/wood for the said item. In a multiplayer game this point in particular is what we should aspire to in my humble opinion. Hence this last point alone suffices.
I partially disagree with your first point. Some spells don't require any components at all and as far as actually craftin a +1 weapon for example. i don't remember nor can I find any resources saying it actually involves components. I'll grant you though, making a +1 weapon without crafting is possible and requires the expensive gem for magic weapon and using perminancy spell which... costs xp.

I partially disagree with your second point. Each trade is unique in and off itself. There is no need for magical crafting to follow any conventions used in say, armor smithing. I think most people include brewing and scribing as trades, even though they're technically not part of that system on FK and again, some spells don't require any material you need to farm for. Just a scroll or flask you buy and are so accessible that you could replace them with charging your bank account per use of the skill and smote success as people already do.

Your third point has validity but it doesn't make sense for a vampire to drain experience rather than doing constitution damage here either. I simply say XP because XP seems to be a catchall term / abstract cost and replenishable resource.

I'll grant you, XP + gold is pretty simple as a system. This I agree with from a game designer's point of view. Priorities on table top were not on crafting but dungeon crawling so they left it at this. It would be far more fun to have lots of cool little noodly things to gather or craft to them recraft an use as resources for yet more crafts. All of these noodly things though, take someone to code them and having begun the soft code building process myself I personally wouldn't be willing to put this much effort into it so I don't really want to come across as that guy who asks for things he wouldn't do himself. If someone does though. Excellent.

At first I really liked your final point. I feel it has the right perspectives backing it. but perhaps this is a bit over synical. However, trying to incorporate different materials at different stages will just end up with players going around in their small groups or solo hoarding them. There are plenty of ways and reason to interract across character groups and unless you're going to force it directly, it won't have the desired result.

Unless you say..., put a zhentil keep only resource that you need, and a Silverymoon only resource that you need and then a resource needed in a zone only level 10 or below can enter. It won't see any great success. or perhaps a system where you literlaly need someone of a different alignment / level in your group and in your room before you can use the command to craft? Dunno.
I trained up double-edged bananas because the uber-plantain of doom I scored from the beehive quest was the best weapon in the game. Now it's being treated like a bug and they have gimped its damage! That's not fair! My character is ruined!

Vaemar
Sword Grand Master
Sword Grand Master
Posts: 664
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2015 11:21 am

Re: Crafting Anew

Post by Vaemar » Sat Nov 19, 2016 1:35 pm

Yemin wrote:At first I really liked your final point. I feel it has the right perspectives backing it. but perhaps this is a bit over synical. However, trying to incorporate different materials at different stages will just end up with players going around in their small groups or solo hoarding them. There are plenty of ways and reason to interract across character groups and unless you're going to force it directly, it won't have the desired result.
It happens exactly the same with components right now. Shall we abolish components for the same reason? I think not.

There is quite a difference between having a system with potential for creating character interaction, even if it is not used, and not having it at all. The alternative is having people hoarding things alone OR in group, instead of having people just grinding HP, Acid Aerie, Undermountain or whatever else over and over again. It goes without saying which of the two alternatives yields for more possibilities to balance (i.e. adjusting availability of components) and immersion.

The other points are kinda moot and very subjective, since the last one, as I said, suffices. But in short, while the analogy between spells that require components and crafting is consistent, since there are already de facto enchanting mechanics such as the continual light spells, the opposite is not necessarily true. I.e. there are spells whose importance and power are kept as low and componentless, such as the curative spells, because their usefulness is low or very temporary. On the other hand when you enchant something, if you do so without components, you would be creating items out of thin air. And that's quite different from a cure light or a magic missile.

Yemin
Sword Grand Master
Sword Grand Master
Posts: 1589
Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2014 3:08 pm
Location: On the back of castle oblivion

Re: Crafting Anew

Post by Yemin » Sat Nov 19, 2016 1:45 pm

That is a largely fair response. While I prefer simple mechanics to achieve simple results and I think using materials instead of process to encourage RP is the wrong way to go about it. I can appreciate your outlook.

I never looked at components as something to encourage RP between people. I always looked at them as a method of limiting powerful spells and any RP that came from them was on the part of the players actually wanting to.

I think then, after considering your words that if you wanted the crafting system to encourage RP. I'd rather see something like needing x amount of people with the skill in group to perform it. Objects and components are messy, but straight forward grouping and skill practice is simple.

Want to make a +1 sword?
Sword is in inventory of primary caster, be it cleric or wizard, everyone in group needs to know magic weapon and hey, the process may take a few tries with everyone's skill roll involved. It may eat expensive diamonds, go and get more. At 48 plat a pop the cooperation pretty much makes itself.
I trained up double-edged bananas because the uber-plantain of doom I scored from the beehive quest was the best weapon in the game. Now it's being treated like a bug and they have gimped its damage! That's not fair! My character is ruined!

Vaemar
Sword Grand Master
Sword Grand Master
Posts: 664
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2015 11:21 am

Re: Crafting Anew

Post by Vaemar » Sat Nov 19, 2016 1:55 pm

Yemin wrote:That is a largely fair response. While I prefer simple mechanics to achieve simple results and I think using materials instead of process to encourage RP is the wrong way to go about it. I can appreciate your outlook.

I never looked at components as something to encourage RP between people. I always looked at them as a method of limiting powerful spells and any RP that came from them was on the part of the players actually wanting to.
They are one and the other. That's why I love the component-based casting of FK. :)

Having components you could also limit availability of enchantments, and make for a certain economy, as I saw on that NWN server. For example there the max enchantment modifcation was +5, but the materials needed for it were so rare a +5 item ended up costing up to 5 times a +4 one. While items from +3 to +1 were largely cheap. Therefore the best bang for your buck was +4 items. Now take these values with a grain of salt, since here the magic level is a bit lower, but I think it gives the idea of why a component based system can be adjusted better and more easily than a coin+xp one, as well as the depth of the implications, economical in this case, it involves. I believe that economy, trades and commerce could be really enhanced on FK to give a much more interesting game experience, and as I saw so far enchanting seems a very promising avenue for this, again in my humble opinion.

Having already a component-based spellcasting I also believe we have already the road paved for such a system, and that we would need only minor adjustments. Basically just the enchanting recipes.

User avatar
Jarngron
Sword Journeyman
Sword Journeyman
Posts: 130
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2016 2:21 am
Contact:

Re: Crafting Anew

Post by Jarngron » Thu Nov 24, 2016 5:25 am

Yemin Wrote:
Now in FK we have these materials represented as actual objects, it still boggles the mind why you stil need to pay gold.
That is a very, very good point. The gold was to cover all the materials that would be used individually that a GM would go insane tracking. We have the benefit of being able to incorporate these materials as growing plants, digging, carving up monster organs, and whatever else may prove to be a fun side-quest or daily job to help bring consistency to these points.

Though I like the idea of requiring certain magical items as a proof of being able to create them, I find that the end result should be these materials equal the amount and costs of magical materials to enchant, and the experience of hunting down the materials should be a lot more interesting. Maybe it is possible to make canon work.

The materials in game that currently exist, could be flagged as components for enchantment. A table then dictates what components, listed or secretive (unshown amongst other materials) could also help determine the end results. It is similar theory to the liquids table, if for instance mixing were considered there to make different types of liquids. This can also be produced via intercept progs to combine and a sequential check for each instance of the item to make it produce unique effects.

If for instance I have the hands, feet, a tooth, and innards to combine I then create individual items for each, hand and foot, hand and tooth, hand and innards, then hands, feet and tooth, hands, innards and feet, and ultimately one with all the items - including the variable combinations to start with. Each of these results in the same product, and could even be made through magical schools to produce more specific effects. Though my metaphor is grim imagine it being flowers, shiny rocks, and probably monster entrails.

This is, in fact, a very interesting thing to me because it begins to show thought into superstition and an attempt at realism with magic. Of course this references a program based on Gilles de Rais, but could be changed to require throwing your strange combination into a cauldron, and an intercept on the enchantment tools to "work their magic" and begin the descriptive process. This could be a lot more involved than merely quitting out, maybe even a different userstate entirely with its own challenges of concentration.

I hesitate to voice critiques, a game that has not only endured as a labor of love but thrived for a decade truly does not need my meddlesome theories, but I offer them nontheless because of how much I do enjoy the people, the roleplay, and the coded game.

Historically there are a lot of things that could make for fun adventure and witty components, I cannot help but imagine a fire-breathing frog taken from the belly of something used for... Well, use your own imagination.

That is one solid point however. The coin covers all of the materials that could presumably be obtained through professional supply. We have our gathering in game though, and we could certainly specify what the value is through materials. There could be a reason to seek school laboratories or spirit lodges to work together, as an end result. I believe it is possible to do all of this with complex intercept programs as-is, too.

I believe that a userstate similar to meditation would exemplify how demanding enchanting is. A growling stomach causes a concentration check, upon which failing can result in losing all progress and the materials already spent towards the process. I believe the process should be able to halt, as long as it's clear that roleplay dictates the enchanter should remand to their project ASAP. Thus, attempting to do things -while- enchanting is not practical at all, meaning the enchanter is actually bothered by their amulet and having to stop their work to speak or risk breaking concentration and failure.



Similarly, some trade skills could be featured to collect rare materials at times with intercept programs that use canon rules for collecting the materials as well. A feudal barter system is my suggestion, surprise.

. A magical bow for instance would require a bowman for the masterwork, and perhaps the crafting of an enchanted string to never break as an explanation for why this bow is magic, is the first example that springs to mind. Many materials may be secretive or left out, even encoded in their cryptic lore, altering the nature of the enchantment, like precious stones which stud themselves on the weapon. The process of enchanting the bowstring should be equitable to the canon costs of enchantment for the bow.

A magical armor is constructed as a masterpiece, and enchanted gemstones are added with descriptions for size, or consumed as a part of the ritual. A Dwarven runesmith wishes to enchant mithril, and requires the cost of ruby dust in whole rubies which he smashes, resulting in a masterwork mithril cuirass engraved with Dethek.

A magical rapier is made in Waterdeep, and the weaponsmith is even a mage, capable of his own enchantment. He paid the cost of his charcoal for the project, 50 platinum, and sets to work. When he is done with his crafting he has a masterwork iron rapier. Taking the rapier home to his nice mage library, he pays the cost of an enchantment library being built into his home - and if he can't afford these prices yet, which he most likely cannot, he seeks out a magical laboratory for his work. Finding one in the school of wonder, despite its noisiness and the troublesome neighborhood, he begins to enchant...

Which similarly to craft, specifies what he does not have yet: 5x rubies, 1x bezoar, 1x eye of toad, 2x wings of bat, 1x oakheart, 1x jar of dragon's blood

Finding the rubies from a miner, the eye from a ranger willing to skin a toad and extract the eye as well as cut off the wings, he seeks a woodsman to cut down an oakheart for him - and an Oghmite to tell him what a 'bezoar' is. He has read a book stating that 'hags hearts' substitute just as well as most hearts for any enchantment, but are worth even more for they decay within a single day, and is pressed with the options of offending wild elves or seeking out a hag - and her heart.
Then he can worry about that dragon blood.


Phyllis Syllis wishes to enchant a ring with greater natural protection. She is a priestess of Sune, and knows that enchantment is best worked with stones that have similar natures as the ones she seeks to elicit. After searching high and low she finds a diamond heart - a beautiful centerpiece for her work, though mundane. As Phyllis considers the enchanting process, she decides she really does not like the smell of the expensive incense required - and that it would cost nearly as much as buying the piece she desires on the market. Deciding to forego the months of incense-infusion with her clothes and hair, Sune hires a priestess of Mystra instead.

Gourgard the Gnome is a rogue jeweler, without the talent for casting magic. He is always seeking Ioun stones to shape and fit for jewelry, and in many cases smashes or chisels them to suit matching pairs of lesser enchantment made from a greater stone. He has made a comfortable living selling earrings and wedding rings, for those matching pairs of the same stones glow when brought close together. Just from smashing the stones, Gourgard has managed to make smaller enchantments - though rarely he has managed to shape a perfect orb or faceted gem retaining the full enchantment in a single piece by working patiently, it is all-too-easy to damage anyway. His expensive pliers are designed not to damage precious metals and must be repaired or replaced routinely, and at times he must work the alchemical kiln paying its cost in alchemy shards.

This should offer several options for obtaining the materials in many cases through intercept programs; by brute force, through skill, through attempted cunning - which can endanger the user through failure and have better chances of success with relevant trade skills for collection, making Rangers and Druids far more important as a whole. Poisoned plants, screaming undead roots, angry souls of dead children for example, bees and spiders - all resulting from trying to take one shiny leaf from a tree on a hillock in a marsh. Not to mention curious cactus fruits that are troublesome to collect without having first chopped off a piece.

The idea struck me as genuinely good, and it would take a lot of work and creativity, but FK deserves some work and creativity.
Cattle die
kinsmen die
all men are mortal.
Words of praise
will never perish
nor a noble name.

- Hávamál

Post Reply