Text additions and requests for blind and other players

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tiyari
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Text additions and requests for blind and other players

Post by tiyari » Mon Mar 09, 2015 5:49 pm

If this topic needs to be moved, I understand. I don't remember where I wrote the one from a few months back.

Theia and I have come up with a list of things that would help in screen reader accessibility for blind/visually impaired players. I have written these out in hopes that admin will consider our requests.
My hope is that this could help other players, not just those dependent on screen readers or other text-only identifiers and indicators.

-- A way to see which language someone is speaking. Currently, with the color-coded text, we have no way of knowing, if we know several languages, whether a person has switched from common to another.

Something like:
say Hello.
Tiyari says in elven, 'Hello.'

Introduce a command that would allow people to see in text which language is being spoken.
Example, using the say command for lack of another:

say (dips her head respectfully, while saying) Be greeted.

The code could introduce "in common", and the appropriate apostrophes around the text following the closing parenthesis

It would be helpful to see which language is being spoken when smoting, however I have no idea how that could be done without the example I gave above.

-- A way to see which spells, in the memorize list, are available to cast. They are all in color at this point, so inaccessible. We see the entire list, but have to guess at which we can actually cast.
An example might be mem, showing all the spells you have memorized, and a separate command for only the ones you have energy to cast in that moment. The second command could be updated each time the "You regain enough power" message comes up.

-- Allow a way to toggle the map on or off, and/or shrink from 9 by 9 to 3 by 3, even in daylight, depending on how much information a person wants/needs.

Also allow the turning off of the map in the wilderness, so we can see room descriptions without pppppfffp in the middle of them.

Note: Screen readers read from left to right, down a line, left to right.
By the time it wades through and has rattled off all the letters in brief mode, a person could easily be dead. There is a way to silence the screen reader while it is prattling, but that still leaves a second or two lost in what may need to be a split-second reaction.

-- Make witch lights have color names if colored in game, i.e. red ball of lighht, so we can enjoy others' creativity too!

-- The same with colored clothing, armour, jewelry, etc, that is not already named with colors, i.e. white studded leather leggings instead of studded leather leggings.

Note: I would be willing to help with this if someone could introduce me to the code, and anything else that would help in fixing such things. I'm aware that the clothing idea may simply be too massive an undertaking, since so much may need to be changed. It is a hope, something others may enjoy.

-- Make a format for score that allows quick and easy access, not a wall of text.

1. carry weight, pets, level, etc. (not necessarily in that order.

2. stats, and only stats.

3. armor and other boosts.

All of these would be top to bottom, not tables. It would cut down on a huge block of text that does not even read in the correct order when using speech.

If any of you have suggestions and constructive things to add, please do so. I remember someone offering to help clientside with some things, but so much of this would be beneficial if done gameside, in case a player does not have the technical know-how to make these changes on their end. I admit I have no idea how most of this could be done within my client. I admit uncertainty to whether admin will see these requests as valid needs, but I hope that you will at least consider them.
Thank you so much.

Tiyari/etc

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Re: Text additions and requests for blind and other players

Post by Terageld » Tue Mar 10, 2015 1:03 am

The map toggle is a great idea. Not because I am blind, but that I occasionally find that the map bugs out sometimes with Mudlet, the client I use to play. The language indicator would be helpful too. Maybe have a "default" setting language and every language other than default would show the prompt "Bob says, in *language*" My character, Terageld, speaks dwarven too. It's sometimes confusing when talking to my dwarf friends, wether they are speaking common or dwarven.
On a unrelated note, I find blind people that play this game to be amazing. I can't imagine living without being able to see. Still, Terageld would walk into Market Square and look at Father Dolifer. I think in my head "Wow, this guy can't see and he still has better stuff than me..." Just thinking about playing FK blind, makes my head spin a bit. I can imagine all the things you have to put up with, like hearing "A kobold warrior is DEAD!" every time when you fight or "I asw't oxlwsatan nos" when you try to talk to foreign shopkeepers.
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Re: Text additions and requests for blind and other players

Post by dolifer » Tue Mar 10, 2015 3:51 am

Most of the things mentioned here can absolutely (admittedly with some knowledge of your client and a bit of playing around) be taken care of client-side. I haven't gotten to playing with the wilderness map yet, but it's on my list. I use zMUD, which is unfortunate since I've heard so few others use it and I'd be more than glad to send out my aliases, triggers, etc.

I've been playing around with the mem list, and setting up different commands for different parts of the score sheet wasn't too difficult. The color issue with clothing and such, I think, would be far too much to take care of fully with not enough reason to do so. Yeah, I like hearing what color this or that might be, but it's also sometimes more fun to make it up in your head as you go along. :D

But yes, one or two of these things might be great to deal with server-side. I'd also be willing to help out with anything I might. I'm not too familiar with the code used in MUDs, but it can't be much different from all the languages I'm used to playing around with.

Finally, I've run into a significant number of blind users who aren't fully familiar with the capabilities of their screen readers. Many of them can indeed read colors and reread text slower with different cursors, and some can even be added to with one's own scripts. MUD client programming along with a few additions to your screen reader's functionality can make for a much smoother experience. I mention this not directed at anyone in particular, only in general to maybe help out a few blind players who might be less familiar.

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Re: Text additions and requests for blind and other players

Post by tiyari » Tue Mar 10, 2015 8:57 pm

I use VipMud, made by GMAGames. Its trigger and alias system is virtually the same as zMud, which I used to use some ten years ago. Part of my reluctance to switch to MUSHclient is that I haven't the foggiest idea how to alias or trigger sounds or simple alerts clientside.

As someone who loves color, the more description I see the better. I'm sad that so few things are described on FK! And so many armours/pieces of jewelry/clothing don't have colors in their names. Some do, if you know where to look, but it's something I do sorely miss from other games I have played.

I know how to use my screen reader (if I'm understanding you correctly), but so much of what I mentioned I haven't a clue how to do clientside, on any of them.

I think certain sizes for the wilderness map would help everybody. 9/9 is a huge grid to wade through, IMHO, and when it is spliced in the middle of a room description...ugh. Quite difficult to read, let alone understand.

I don't have a clue with the score sheet or the memorize list.

Re blind people being amazing... that's like telling you that you're amazing because you can see or hear or drive a car. It's second nature, and extremely awkward when anyone calls attention to how incredible I am because I do things that so many seem to find marvelous.

I think it was Xryon (sp?) offering to help a couple months ago. Dolifer, I'm interested in anything you can share.

I hope for others, though, that clientside is not the only option. I cringe at what I've seen on other games: soundpacks made, distributed with alias and trigger files, illegal aliases and/or triggers included. I don't want to be even a part of anything potentially under the radar. I've seen blind people flock to games, and things get tremendously out of hand. We need help, but ... conservatively. I for one am sad when I see any group of people monopolize admins' time, anywhere. That is surely not my intent.

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Re: Text additions and requests for blind and other players

Post by Yemin » Mon Mar 16, 2015 12:52 am

Alot of things can be solved with a solid soundpack. Color sensitive triggers and such are also possible in vipmud and combining these with a capture script, you can form your own casted / uncasted list since I believe expended spells show up in red and ready one in green.

Unfortunately no one's made a sound pack for FK and I myself don't really plan to be that elitist with this game in particular. But if it helps I could pm anyone who's interested in making such for fk some of my other soundpacks i've made for other games and capture trigs / aliases so you could emulate it from those.
I trained up double-edged bananas because the uber-plantain of doom I scored from the beehive quest was the best weapon in the game. Now it's being treated like a bug and they have gimped its damage! That's not fair! My character is ruined!

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Re: Text additions and requests for blind and other players

Post by tiyari » Fri Mar 20, 2015 2:28 am

Hi Yemin,

I find that if I keep colors turned on in VipMud, the client has, in the past, been prone to crashing quite a lot. I've kept it off for a long time now, which is frustrating because I would llike too turn itt back on.
But the developer hasn't made changes to the clientt in some five years, so I'm at a bbitt of a loss.

Thoughts?

And have any admin seen this? Is the concensus from admin that we just need to do the things I wrote about on our own?

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Re: Text additions and requests for blind and other players

Post by Xryon » Fri Mar 20, 2015 2:10 pm

Just wanted to hop on and say that I am still working on the things I discussed a few months ago. This semester got way crazier than I (foolishly) expected, and I've lacked time to work on anything but school-related work.

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Re: Text additions and requests for blind and other players

Post by Yemin » Tue Mar 24, 2015 12:24 pm

tiyari wrote:Hi Yemin,

I find that if I keep colors turned on in VipMud, the client has, in the past, been prone to crashing quite a lot. I've kept it off for a long time now, which is frustrating because I would llike too turn itt back on.
But the developer hasn't made changes to the clientt in some five years, so I'm at a bbitt of a loss.

Thoughts?

And have any admin seen this? Is the concensus from admin that we just need to do the things I wrote about on our own?
I've not encountered that before. If its a matter of time. Could always have the trigger turn color on, and then off after its finished executing.

I don't really play much to at all anymore but i'd still be willing to help / test whatever you produce Xryon
I trained up double-edged bananas because the uber-plantain of doom I scored from the beehive quest was the best weapon in the game. Now it's being treated like a bug and they have gimped its damage! That's not fair! My character is ruined!

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Re: Text additions and requests for blind and other players

Post by tiyari » Wed Mar 25, 2015 7:56 am

I was playing around yesterday with color tags in VipMud, and having color turned on gameside and in my client. I didn't realize so many things are color-coded.
In the lady's boutique in Waterdeep, for example, the cloths don't let you pick what color you want--they're already colored, so you pick the color/cloth all in one. I would rather see silk with options for color.

Xryon, I'll be very curious to see what you come up with.

I saw a forest room earlier that had the map above the description. I could read the desc! It was nice.

I'm sorry this has turned into a client discussion not a game one, entirely.

--Tiyari et al

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Re: Text additions and requests for blind and other players

Post by Yemin » Mon Mar 30, 2015 6:59 am

In the words of Lady pompadom from the lady's emporium
"WAT! You want to pick the color design of your own outfit

Oh my dear balls and marbles deary no... I thought you were paying me to make you look fabulous but if not, the street's that way. Have fun shopping around for your own materials and ending up less tasteful than a northern half-orc barbarian."
*blows nose and tosses silken handkerchief to your feet then buys a fresh one for 2 gold from her own shop just to flash money*

Thems the Breaks partna. For the most part Tiyari I just find little fix me's as I go along until I've played the mud for so long I'm used to its quirks I have to deal with as a blind player and can deal with them without thinking about it cos its alot of effort vs little reward if 3 months in I start making something and 5 months in I hit up against, something I can't deal with mechanically, or would have to turn a game into work just to play it, which wouldn't be fun.

Luckily, thats mostly not the case with FK far as I could tell
I trained up double-edged bananas because the uber-plantain of doom I scored from the beehive quest was the best weapon in the game. Now it's being treated like a bug and they have gimped its damage! That's not fair! My character is ruined!

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Re: Text additions and requests for blind and other players

Post by Gwain » Mon Mar 30, 2015 5:34 pm

The code I set up in the lady's emporium emphasizes material over colour because up until that point the only other customizable clothing stores were about colour. The idea is to mix and match as you customize your outfit. If colour is a concern it would be easy to add a sign to the room description detailing what colour is what material instead of an overly complicated code change. I can get around to it when I'm done my other areas or someone else can add it. I'd rather not change the code of the area though, it's very complicated.
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Re: Text additions and requests for blind and other players

Post by Yemin » Tue Mar 31, 2015 12:44 am

I'd be down for a sign that details which material is which color sure. Sounds like a fair deal
I trained up double-edged bananas because the uber-plantain of doom I scored from the beehive quest was the best weapon in the game. Now it's being treated like a bug and they have gimped its damage! That's not fair! My character is ruined!

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Re: Text additions and requests for blind and other players

Post by tiyari » Wed Apr 01, 2015 5:42 am

What if you want pink or red or white velvet, not purple?

:)

I jest, but I am serious, too.

I come from other games in which you can pick the material and color separately. It feels limiting to, if one wants brown clothing, be stuck with a cloth type that perhaps a char may hate.

But.. and this is far more important in the long-run. . . I don't want to diminish the need for some of what I've requested. Not because I expect or want the imms or coders to do everything at my whim, not because I want anyone's lives to be made difficult by my requests. . . but because I am not just thinking of those of us who are tech or computer-savvy, but in fact, those who are not. What if, for example, someone came in, stumbled upon some of the things that may or may not be dealt with via work-arounds, gets frustrated and leaves? Is that not shooting the very playerbase in the foot by limiting its numbers?

I really don't mean to be a pest or a bother in any way. I'm concerned, though, that saying, well we can just do these things clientside will present mixed messages. On one hand I have concerns, on the other there are those who feel that most of these things can be done via their client. Both have validity, to be sure, but I hope that, just because the clientside work may be possible, that the real need is not diminished. I'm trying to think of someone who, honestly, wants to get into the RP and other aspects of the game, and not beat their proverbial head against the wall with aspects of the color or other indicators for important things in game.

By the way, to whichever admin/s ran that event on Sunday, thank you so much for putting colors in the descriptions of the wreaths. That was a huge help!

I know that this thread isn't just about blind players. Every single player, past, present, future, has wanted or will want things that may or may not be possible. But maybe they are. I don't know, which is why I came here to bring the concerns up.

All my talk about things I hope for or would like is my own preferences talking. There are things I would like, and things I feel the game needs, and it's hard to know where the line between the two are, and where the line is between being mindful of helping as many as possible, or not helping any at all.

Ramly Tiyari et al

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Re: Text additions and requests for blind and other players

Post by Gwain » Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:05 am

tiyari wrote:What if you want pink or red or white velvet, not purple?

:)

I jest, but I am serious, too.
Sounds like something you can build into an area you design/build. :D The code is complex but has been done in many ways so far. Instead of adjusting an existing area's code, add another area to your specifications.
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Re: Text additions and requests for blind and other players

Post by Yemin » Wed Aug 26, 2015 11:04 pm

In a spurt of unusual levels of motivation I've gotten most of a very basic soundpack done for playing FK on vipmud that I plan to share soon ish. I'm finding it difficult to get a few of the triggering lines I need though so If someone could post here to help me out I'd be grateful.

I currently only need the various states of health, specifically the top line that you see when you glance at someone. From perfect condition all the way down to dying.

Thanks
***#done.
I trained up double-edged bananas because the uber-plantain of doom I scored from the beehive quest was the best weapon in the game. Now it's being treated like a bug and they have gimped its damage! That's not fair! My character is ruined!

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Re: Text additions and requests for blind and other players

Post by Yemin » Sat Sep 05, 2015 5:33 am

One facet that could be improved from our end is the format of colors and materials offered in certain NPC merchants that offer special wares.

Often the options are surrounded with a number of .... on either side and the options tbh make no sense when I try to navigate them individually.

Could they be put into a numbered list instead?
Thanks
I trained up double-edged bananas because the uber-plantain of doom I scored from the beehive quest was the best weapon in the game. Now it's being treated like a bug and they have gimped its damage! That's not fair! My character is ruined!

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Re: Text additions and requests for blind and other players

Post by Beskytter » Fri Sep 25, 2015 10:05 am

I'm not sure how useful it would be, but I can actually do voices and such to bring together a 'soundpack' for the game. It wouldn't be /perfect/ as such, unless we take our time to work through each of the areas to iron out exactly what we want it to sound like, but if it would help make this game playable to teens, young adults, and adult adults with impairments I'd be happy to put aside time for it.

My voice range is deep, though I can do a cackly witch when needed, but I'm also good for goblins (with variations that aren't just tone and/or pitch), orcs, and of course men of various professions. I'm also willing to go collect background sound bytes, unless some one has done this already from the big internet, depending on the level of detail we're going for.

PM me if you're interested in talking about this, but I warn that I work almost every single day for long stretches of the day which will make my replies slow (just slow, I will respond).

P.S. If you just want a voicing of your character, PM me with a description of how you think they sound and I can work on getting a sample set of text for you. RLW examples help guide me. If you're wanting female voices, I can ask my wife.
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Re: Text additions and requests for blind and other players

Post by Yemin » Sun Sep 27, 2015 1:29 am

Thanks Bes, I was going to focus more on things like that after the first version which is almost finished is done.

currently, I'm just working out a way for the triggers that control the sounds for when you check other PCs health status to not fire multiple times as the same descriptions for damage to limbs is used for the overall health of the char..., I think i've got it figured out but will need to test it then implement.

That and a couple dozen small fixes and improvements and I'll probably be dropping a link here for it soon after.
I trained up double-edged bananas because the uber-plantain of doom I scored from the beehive quest was the best weapon in the game. Now it's being treated like a bug and they have gimped its damage! That's not fair! My character is ruined!

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Re: Text additions and requests for blind and other players

Post by Yemin » Tue Jan 12, 2016 10:31 pm

First version is complete. I'm having a friend test it for me but I'd like to get an idea of how many people if any would be interested ina sound pack for VIPmud that:

cuts out most of the combat spam that config +gag doesn't
Has speech and tell sounds to alert you when there's other spam.
Stoen skin and mirror image alerts.

Among a few other things that I really should look through so I can put in a list.
I trained up double-edged bananas because the uber-plantain of doom I scored from the beehive quest was the best weapon in the game. Now it's being treated like a bug and they have gimped its damage! That's not fair! My character is ruined!

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Re: Text additions and requests for blind and other players

Post by dolifer » Wed Jan 13, 2016 9:43 am

I'd love to have something like that. Don't use that client currently, but for those perks, I'll switch. :D

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