New killmode

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Algon
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New killmode

Post by Algon » Sat May 30, 2015 12:43 am

I am not sure if it would be possible, with with the tournament tonight, I had an idea.

Killmode group

The way it would would would be...if Bob was fighting John and they both intend to use area spells, Bob could go...killmode group John.

This would put the two in a killmode where their area spells only effect each other, that way the crowd would be able to watch the fight without getting hit as well.

Like I said, it may not even be possible code wise, but could be useful for tournaments.
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Re: New killmode

Post by Yemin » Sat May 30, 2015 2:48 am

Reminds me of the friends / foes list for area spells I suggested a while ago.
A command to make a list of people in the same room that your offensive spells would only effect. It may not work that way but I imagine whatever code handles groups and area spells could be flipped on its head so area spells effect only the group
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Re: New killmode

Post by Nimboro » Sun May 31, 2015 11:38 am

I like it. D&D spells that affect an area can hurt friend and for alike, but we have no ability to micro manage directions. The killmode group suggestion does enable combatants to 'aim' their spells away from an audience, so it has an if translation to the ooc code. I wouldn't have Searos blowing up his buddies in a tourney after all!

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Re: New killmode

Post by Dranso » Sun May 31, 2015 6:56 pm

Awesome idea. I'm not 100% sure but lately i have been using area spells such as acid fog and earth reaver and I have been able to target just one NPC out of a group of them by typing cast "earth reaver" vrock for example instead of just typing cast "earth reaver". There might be other spells this does not apply to tho.

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Re: New killmode

Post by Valyn » Sun May 31, 2015 7:00 pm

I think allowing this to spellcasters would be overpowered.

In D&D area spells are much less useful than they are in FK. In FK, if you're grouped, they manage to hit ALL of your enemies in a room, whereas in D&D they would only hit enemies in a sphere (how often are your enemies likely to be grouped together in a 60 foot diameter circle out in the wilderness) and additionally, you would not be able to use area spells on enemies your allies were engaged in melee with without hitting your friends.

Currently, this makes spellcasters way more effective in fights than they would be in D&D. One of the only existing counterbalances to this is that if a spellcaster is unwise and only memorizes area attack spells, they cannot engage enemies in an environment where there are ungrouped friendly MOBs or friendly PCs nearby. Adding this killmode would do away with one of the last remaining pieces of balance that brings spellcasters closer to the power level of the other classes in the game.

We *could* do something really complicated like some MUSHes I've seen out there, where, round by round, we can start typing where we walk, etc, but I feel like something like this would drastically increase the learning curve in combat.

In short, I'm arguing that we should leave this the way that it is, as it would only really serve to increase the power of spellcasters by removing some of the consequences of not memorizing non-area affect spells.

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Re: New killmode

Post by Lirith » Sun May 31, 2015 7:48 pm

I don't see how this would be unbalancing since it would only be of use when in a tournament or PVP. If you were adventuring, why would you group to only do damage TO the person you're adventuring with? It'd make no sense, so essentially is useless outside of a tournament.

I think this is a good idea. The tournament last night was a case in point where wizard fights had to take place with only the competitors in the room and no spectators able to watch.

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Re: New killmode

Post by Althasizor » Sun May 31, 2015 7:55 pm

I'm actually a fan of this suggestion because it specifically does nothing to imbalance the game.

There's no need for a huge write-up, but just a few points:
1a. FK assumes spellcasters are also unwise enough to stand 5 feet from every melee attacker.
1b. Given the above, area spells assuming your enemies are within 60 feet is actually pretty reasonable.
2. We don't have metamagic rods. That actually makes a pretty big difference in how wizards in FK use their feats, because D&D also has Selective Spell, which pretty well does what group does.(Shape Spell would also allow the effects of this 'killmode')
3. Most of the 1-turn-winners for casters are not area effects, and thus unaffected by this.

Let's be real, this 'killmode' would really do nothing to the game's balance. It would, however, add plenty of entertainment to the game. Needing to walk away to use your effective, non-slaying spells in a tournament setting isn't any fun for the performers or the spectators.
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Re: New killmode

Post by Trillarel » Mon Jun 01, 2015 9:07 am

I think the major point of this killmode would be to avoid killing spectators/friends in otherwise no-kill PvP events. So no, not imbalancing.

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Re: New killmode

Post by Kinni » Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:06 am

An alternative solution to the spectator dangers might be something other than the killmode entirely. In a MUSH I built, we had "observation" style rooms. For example, let's consider the stadium...

The inner ring of the stadium is one room with its own VNUM. Anything that happens in this room would be "echoed" to the stands, which too is it's own room with a different VNUM. This would allow people to view the battle without being code-wise subjected to the effects of spells. If desirable, you could reverse the echo so people in the battle area could also hear the roars and the like coming from their adoring fans in the stands. It has been a while since I've touched any of the code here, so I'm not sure how possible/difficult the implementation would be, but there you have it.
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Re: New killmode

Post by Valyn » Wed Jun 03, 2015 8:02 pm

Spellcaster balance issues of D&D vs FK

As a Wizard in D&D, you can choose to cast a spell or move away from aggressors. It's not just assumed that you're more than 5 feet away, it takes actions. If you want to move and cast you can't cast a full round spell. Here spellcasters have no such restrictions.

In D&D, sure, your enemies are probably in a 60ft group. Also, your melee allies are probably in that same 60foot group and would also all need to save vs your area spells, should you choose to use them. Spellcasters here do not have that issue. They automatically get to hit every enemy in the room (even in IMM quests where you're out on the world map and there are 20 mobs in a room - less likely they're within a 60ft radius) and avoid ALL of your allies. This is definitely a balance issue, but one we're unlikely to solve without a much slower combat system without a bigger learning curve.

In PK situations on FK there are usually innocent bystanders which force good characters to have to either harm bystanders or choose not to use area spells. This killmode would allow spellcasters to selectively target spells which are supposed to hit everything. This would make it more or less impossible for someone to run into a crowd to try to hide from area spells since the idea of this killmode means that a spellcaster could now cast acid fog in the Market Square and selectively hit one person.

In D&D the ability to avoid targets with an area spell costs a feat point and a spell slot 1 level higher. I think if we want to implement this ability for spellcasters we should require the same - and even then, the D&D feat only lets you "shape magic" to avoid hitting one person in a large area

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Re: New killmode

Post by Tyeslan » Wed Jun 03, 2015 8:27 pm

I believe you are looking at this too grandly. This would be used for tournaments, or large gatherings. It would be something that people would need to agree upon, and have little room for abuse.

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Re: New killmode

Post by Gwain » Wed Jun 03, 2015 8:38 pm

I agree, I can't see people abusing this in any way possible, it quite literally keeps you from killing spectators or spectators from killing you when using aoe spells. They can't attack your opponents and you can't attack them, what can go wrong? How can that be abused?
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Re: New killmode

Post by Yemin » Wed Jun 03, 2015 9:52 pm

Valyn wrote:Spellcaster balance issues of D&D vs FK

As a Wizard in D&D, you can choose to cast a spell or move away from aggressors. It's not just assumed that you're more than 5 feet away, it takes actions. If you want to move and cast you can't cast a full round spell. Here spellcasters have no such restrictions.

In D&D, sure, your enemies are probably in a 60ft group. Also, your melee allies are probably in that same 60foot group and would also all need to save vs your area spells, should you choose to use them. Spellcasters here do not have that issue. They automatically get to hit every enemy in the room (even in IMM quests where you're out on the world map and there are 20 mobs in a room - less likely they're within a 60ft radius) and avoid ALL of your allies. This is definitely a balance issue, but one we're unlikely to solve without a much slower combat system without a bigger learning curve.

In PK situations on FK there are usually innocent bystanders which force good characters to have to either harm bystanders or choose not to use area spells. This killmode would allow spellcasters to selectively target spells which are supposed to hit everything. This would make it more or less impossible for someone to run into a crowd to try to hide from area spells since the idea of this killmode means that a spellcaster could now cast acid fog in the Market Square and selectively hit one person.

In D&D the ability to avoid targets with an area spell costs a feat point and a spell slot 1 level higher. I think if we want to implement this ability for spellcasters we should require the same - and even then, the D&D feat only lets you "shape magic" to avoid hitting one person in a large area
Apart from the crowd cenario most spells can be targeted in tabletop. The spells that don't allow you to choose a square or intersection of origin are rare.

I.e., I originate my fireballs 15 feet away from the target, ergo I've never actually hit an ally whilst playing a sorc blaster cannon in dnd before but no we've barely fought in a crowd.

Personally I feel that FK wizards are already drastically nerfed compared to dnd wizards the reasons for such not quite in line with this topic's purpose but feel free to start a different thread or pm me and I can list a host of reasons.

With that in mind a blanket command to select your targets would be fair. Considering I've seen NPCs on FK do this exact thing recently. Seems kinda cheap that PC casters can't.



Also, its been mentioned before but most AOE spells can already just hit a single target with the proper syntax, Its risky though and I'd be much happier to see code to remove human error from the equation.
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Re: New killmode

Post by Gwain » Wed Jun 03, 2015 10:03 pm

It won't ever happen. AOE spells were implemented in 2005-2006 to put them in line with tabletop practices, before that all spells were targeted. There were cries of dissent back then, requests to make aoe optional via combat commands were turned down.

Killmode group won't be used by wizards, rather it will be a killmode used by spectators so that they are immune to aoe spells in tourneys and demonstration matches they are not part of.

The only way this can be abused is if:
1. The opponent turns it on to avoid being affected by spell damage, then turns it off to attack: Easy solution, make the option impossible to use in combat situations or once combat is comence, make killmode revert to stun or kill the second you try to kill someone with it.

My advice is to stop seeing this new killmode as a way for wizards to use aoe spells on single targets, instead think of it as a way for players to be spectators to battles with aoe spells involved without being harmed or joining in by code.
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Re: New killmode

Post by Valyn » Wed Jun 03, 2015 10:06 pm

I think this works if you would use the killmode in reverse like that - I do not like giving Wizards the ability to solo target area spells, otherwise it makes non-area spells irrelevant.

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Re: New killmode

Post by Althasizor » Wed Jun 03, 2015 10:30 pm

I really don't think hitting one guy with fireball instead of a room full makes phantasmal killer irrelevant.
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Re: New killmode

Post by Hrosskell » Thu Jun 04, 2015 1:22 am

It also doesn't change the value of AoE spells vs. equivalent level single target spells. For example, fireball should almost always do less single target damage than lightning bolt whether it hits 1 enemy or not.

I'm all for this. The only thing is, I'd prefer it worked off of area code and was limited to appropriate venues (there are a number of public access venues for sparring/spectating in the world) so that you can't just toss this killmode on, walk into MS, and fireball/flamestrike a single person. Having seen people who chose to use these massive spells in a crowded place with abandon and face the IC consequences, I don't think we should suddenly validate that kind of stuff.
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Re: New killmode

Post by Yemin » Thu Jun 04, 2015 4:55 pm

Hrosskell wrote:It also doesn't change the value of AoE spells vs. equivalent level single target spells. For example, fireball should almost always do less single target damage than lightning bolt whether it hits 1 enemy or not.
P.S. could we have lightning bolt as an area spell.. since it is a line I mean, if we're assuming AOE spells hitting everything that isn't in group represents wizards running around placing themselves to hit all enemies anyway :P

Also, I've never tested it but I really hope fireball doesn't do less damage than lightning bolt. Their supposed to do exactly the same amount on SRD just different energy types.
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Re: New killmode

Post by Algon » Thu Jun 04, 2015 8:15 pm

Hrosskell wrote:It also doesn't change the value of AoE spells vs. equivalent level single target spells. For example, fireball should almost always do less single target damage than lightning bolt whether it hits 1 enemy or not.

I'm all for this. The only thing is, I'd prefer it worked off of area code and was limited to appropriate venues (there are a number of public access venues for sparring/spectating in the world) so that you can't just toss this killmode on, walk into MS, and fireball/flamestrike a single person. Having seen people who chose to use these massive spells in a crowded place with abandon and face the IC consequences, I don't think we should suddenly validate that kind of stuff.
I would be completely agreeable to having this only available in certain rooms. Sparring fields and the like. This is not something that would EVER be used for anything other than sparring/tournaments. Just simply a way for people to be able to watch the show without having to worry about being hit with a massive fireball.
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