Brew!

A place to suggest new commands, feats, skills, ...
Ungtar
Sword Grand Master
Sword Grand Master
Posts: 478
Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2014 7:28 pm

Brew!

Post by Ungtar » Thu Jun 25, 2015 2:52 pm

I love this skill. I'd like to suggest some changes and open it for discussion.

1. Let me alter the adjective of the potions I create in some fashion to make them more roleplayish. For example, a dwarven potion might be "A stout ale" which then cures wounds, etc. The actual spells the potions contain could still be displayed in the long description.

2. Open up the higher level spells to be brewed, based on the skill level of the brewer. If I reach grandmaster under the current code, I really do not get anything out of it except decreased chance of failure.

3. Allow harmful spells to be brewed and instead of quaffed and affects applied to the user, have them apply the effects as if the spell was cast. For example, a potion of sorrow thrown at the enemy would then add the effect as if the spell had been cast. (Sort of an alchemist power to be able to throw combat potions.)

As always, increased capability brings in increased chance of abuse, but I think a fine job of mitigating that across the game has been done so far.

Tyeslan
Sword Grand Master
Sword Grand Master
Posts: 489
Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 2:55 am
Location: The frozen north of Alberta, Canada.

Re: Brew!

Post by Tyeslan » Thu Jun 25, 2015 4:08 pm

I personally love options one, and three.

One would make it so that it can be tailored to the RP of the person using it, and add a flavour of fun.

Three would likely take some huge code work, but would be an awesome option for fights especially for those people who want a brawling character. It would probably use the concentration skill also. It might check when you go to toss it to see if you will drop it, and shatter the potion, or if it will successfully deploy against the enemy.

I think two has been addressed before. I would have to comb the forums, and see, but it was an abuse issue with the spells/prayers, and what they have been kept to level three, and lower.

dolifer

Re: Brew!

Post by dolifer » Fri Jun 26, 2015 11:52 pm

I, too, have always wished Ungtar's first suggestion was available. It'd just make things more fun, and I really can't see any harm in it. Plus... I never really understood why brewed potions are suddenly identifiable by everyone. Even though good RPers just act out that they don't know what's in the potion, I hate the idea of even a barbarian who could look at a flask and go, "Yep, that's a cure wounds potion."

The second suggestion... Well, Even opening brew up to level four spells could get ridiculously over-the-top, as that's the wizardly level for what I feel is one of the strongest spells in the game, stone skin. I can see people of all classes running around with bags full of stone skin potions, soloing areas that really shouldn't be soloed without even a small chance of being severely harmed. Maybe stone skin could be one of those left off the brewing list, but still, divine and arcane spells alike start to get really powerful at the fourth circle and above for brewing.

Not sure how I feel about number three... In standard rules, which would make sense here, also, flasks thrown like that hit everything five feet around the impact point.. This could effectively allow, say, a "mass flame arrow", or "mass silence", considering the way fights are lain out on this MUD, and that'd be just too much. Even if the thrown flask would hit just one target, though, I think I'd enjoy it, but I can imagine things getting a little out of hand with that, too. Fighters are suddenly psudo-battlewizards, and wizards and priests suddenly won't have to worry about running out of spells because, well, I know I'd carry hundreds of harmful potions on me at that point.

Other suggestions I have regarding this skill:
Maybe up the XP gained from brewing a bit.. The helpfile says each brewed spell grants XP, but I've never noticed an XP increase even after ten-hour brewing sessions.
Also... I'd love to see the level of this skill dropped some (along with scribe, for that matter). I just think it's at a very high level requirement right now that doesn't really fit well with what you get out of it.

Ungtar
Sword Grand Master
Sword Grand Master
Posts: 478
Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2014 7:28 pm

Re: Brew!

Post by Ungtar » Sat Jun 27, 2015 2:51 am

What if the higher level potions were gated somehow by additional component requirements? Like powdered beholder eye or dunewinder spice.

Yemin
Sword Grand Master
Sword Grand Master
Posts: 1589
Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2014 3:08 pm
Location: On the back of castle oblivion

Re: Brew!

Post by Yemin » Sat Jun 27, 2015 3:19 am

Ungtar wrote:I love this skill. I'd like to suggest some changes and open it for discussion.

1. Let me alter the adjective of the potions I create in some fashion to make them more roleplayish. For example, a dwarven potion might be "A stout ale" which then cures wounds, etc. The actual spells the potions contain could still be displayed in the long description.

2. Open up the higher level spells to be brewed, based on the skill level of the brewer. If I reach grandmaster under the current code, I really do not get anything out of it except decreased chance of failure.

3. Allow harmful spells to be brewed and instead of quaffed and affects applied to the user, have them apply the effects as if the spell was cast. For example, a potion of sorrow thrown at the enemy would then add the effect as if the spell had been cast. (Sort of an alchemist power to be able to throw combat potions.)

As always, increased capability brings in increased chance of abuse, but I think a fine job of mitigating that across the game has been done so far.
Tweak number 1 would be nice.
The second i'd have to say no. There's a reason there's a level cap on potions, scrolls and wands in dnd, in large part to what Dolifer said.

And I'm not sure why the game divorced itself from 3.5e in this so decisively. since wizards get Scribe scroll at level 1 and can pick up brew at level 3 in the tabletop. Suddenly making them high level skills has actually been detrimental to the game from what I can see. Instead of wizards being the careful literate planner. Their deprived of one of the main methods by which they can keep from running out of spells early on so a bunch start picking up, or wasting feats on a great sword as a matter of survival or to keep from getting bored like I did the 30+ levels of daggering or quarterstaffing. Scribe is such a higher level skill even. Almost every wizard in the game I know off at high levels has almost every spell in the game because it has been augmented to a state where its relatively cheap to scribe scrolls past spell level 3. Don't get me wrong. This is both a partial gripe and a partial nod of the head because there are a couple good points because on the flip side a mud like this does need wizards to know alot more spells than is sensible for a tabletop but i'm not sure it should've been let to get to the degree its at now.

Option 3 would be a good idea if splash weapons were introduced into the game and sold by gonders, or as part of alchemy. The code effectivley would be potion of inept / amateur fireball for alchemist's fire, inept/amateur ice storm for alchemist's cold and so on. I don't think it should be included under the brewing skill for the simple reason that there are already things that do that in the FR universe and if the game wants to stick close to that universe it'll make alchemy more expansive. As for offensive items. Staves could fill that void if they were made rechargeable or they auto recharge every game day or at the rate that turn undead and such does.
I trained up double-edged bananas because the uber-plantain of doom I scored from the beehive quest was the best weapon in the game. Now it's being treated like a bug and they have gimped its damage! That's not fair! My character is ruined!

dolifer

Re: Brew!

Post by dolifer » Sat Jun 27, 2015 8:37 am

Ungtar wrote: What if the higher level potions were gated somehow by additional component requirements? Like powdered beholder eye or dunewinder spice.
For many higher-level, buffed up chars, even these sorts of things are relatively easily obtained. I know my wizard can get a load of pretty much any rare component without much effort, anyway. I haven't been able to come up with something that could make that particular suggestion possible yet, but maybe there's something.

...And yes, what Yemin said about the skills' levels. Don't get me wrong, I love, love, love my greatsword-swinging, bull's strength/enlarge-person-dependant, part-barbarian wizard, but when she first started out, without those high-damage weapons, things were very difficult for a while, without the ability to brew and scribe her spells.

User avatar
Maetha
Sword Apprentice
Sword Apprentice
Posts: 84
Joined: Sat May 02, 2015 6:15 am
Location: Material Plane

Re: Brew!

Post by Maetha » Sun Jun 28, 2015 3:34 am

As a reminder, part of the detriment to scrolls and potions is that they require time and effort to make/obtain. Part of why they were useful skills- but not gamebreaking ones at low levels- in the tabletop was because they were a way -around- your limited spell list. The fact that things aren't based on Caster level here as they are in the tabletop further negates their usability since getting the full benefit from a spell would require a caster to have a decent amount of time invested into the spell (And I don't know about you guys, but I have a 14 INT Cleric who uses Bulls Strength constantly- and it's still only at Adept.)

Another reason they were not all that great was because of the costs associated with making them. 3.5e's crafting system was notoriously unfriendly and hard to understand. Unless you have a friend willing to hand you things (which happens here on the MUD, I admit) you're looking at paying more coin than you can afford to pay if you want to function without having extreme luck with quest rewards or haggling with other adventurers (which makes way for more RP anyway.)

The last detriment is carrying -around- all of these scrolls and potions- potions moreso since of course they don't require UMD to use like Scrolls do. They also have the disadvantage of only affecting the drinker.
The second suggestion... Well, Even opening brew up to level four spells could get ridiculously over-the-top, as that's the wizardly level for what I feel is one of the strongest spells in the game, stone skin. I can see people of all classes running around with bags full of stone skin potions, soloing areas that really shouldn't be soloed without even a small chance of being severely harmed. Maybe stone skin could be one of those left off the brewing list, but still, divine and arcane spells alike start to get really powerful at the fourth circle and above for brewing.
I don't see that as being much more different than simply asking for a boon in the town square. And before you say "Roleplay required" so would be getting the potions unless they were made available at stores- which I don't see occurring. Stoneskin is powerful, but it also is hardly game-breaking.

TL;DR More cheap potions of cure, pl0x
This is the kind of thing that makes the Gods think we're fools.

Caethos- Half-Elf Red Knight Cleric
Ithaca- Wild Elf Warrior
Plathine- Human Pirate
Schezalle- Drow Executioner Rogue

Yemin
Sword Grand Master
Sword Grand Master
Posts: 1589
Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2014 3:08 pm
Location: On the back of castle oblivion

Re: Brew!

Post by Yemin » Sun Jun 28, 2015 4:26 am

I've found most spells to be pretty decent at apprentice myself, but that might be due to my playstyle or something. and wow adept? I have a 20 int wizard who's only got those to journyman lol. but then thats definitely down to playstyle.

Getting back to topic, I think the most important thing to concentrate here is the crafting of custom name potions. It would add a completely new dimension to the rp in magicking which is always cool, and also, i just finished a potion order and beyond the fact that I think brewing should be treated more like crafting, as in it happens in the background so we can actually play the game. Its beyond tiresome to go through 20+ potions of dragonskin + heroism looking for the one that just has dragonskin in it.
I trained up double-edged bananas because the uber-plantain of doom I scored from the beehive quest was the best weapon in the game. Now it's being treated like a bug and they have gimped its damage! That's not fair! My character is ruined!

User avatar
Maetha
Sword Apprentice
Sword Apprentice
Posts: 84
Joined: Sat May 02, 2015 6:15 am
Location: Material Plane

Re: Brew!

Post by Maetha » Tue Jun 30, 2015 9:31 am

Yemin wrote:I've found most spells to be pretty decent at apprentice myself, but that might be due to my playstyle or something. and wow adept? I have a 20 int wizard who's only got those to journyman lol. but then thats definitely down to playstyle.
I literally didn't sneeze on the character without at least putting up Bulls Strength- so.
Getting back to topic, I think the most important thing to concentrate here is the crafting of custom name potions. It would add a completely new dimension to the rp in magicking which is always cool, and also, i just finished a potion order and beyond the fact that I think brewing should be treated more like crafting, as in it happens in the background so we can actually play the game. Its beyond tiresome to go through 20+ potions of dragonskin + heroism looking for the one that just has dragonskin in it.
Second.
This is the kind of thing that makes the Gods think we're fools.

Caethos- Half-Elf Red Knight Cleric
Ithaca- Wild Elf Warrior
Plathine- Human Pirate
Schezalle- Drow Executioner Rogue

Vaemar
Sword Grand Master
Sword Grand Master
Posts: 665
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2015 11:21 am

Re: Brew!

Post by Vaemar » Wed Jun 08, 2016 1:19 pm

At present it is possible to find by mobs potions of cure critical. However since the limit for brewing is third level spells, no player character, no matter the class, can brew a potion of cure critical. The workaround is brewing potions of triple cure serious, but frankly I find no justification for the situation. If mobs can brew cure critical so should player characters, in my humble opinion.

I think then that at least the threshold for brewing spells should be raised to 4th level spells.

This would have added benefits as potions of stone skin and other useful, but not excessively overpowered, spells.

Yemin
Sword Grand Master
Sword Grand Master
Posts: 1589
Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2014 3:08 pm
Location: On the back of castle oblivion

Re: Brew!

Post by Yemin » Wed Jun 08, 2016 2:55 pm

My view on this has altered slightly, but not to the degree that I think player made 4th levle spells or NPC 4th levle spells should really be a thing.

We currently can get some 4th levle spells brewed through clerics though.

How my view has changed isn't because it is a core part of 3.5 dnd and path finder. It is mostly because through roleplay, I have come to understand that made available to players, it would be terrible for the game environment as largely, players do not have any kind of IC enforced regulatory system for these services.

Under the services section of path finder. The language is, what I believe is deliberately worded to make it seem that services bought from wizards and clerics tend to be given reluctantly, at great cost to the customer and sometimes not at all if it means the wizard or cleric will actually have to do any serious work for it that takes them away from their own interests.

This is of course outside contracts with city states or governments to do with schooling or providing services to established officials.

Generally, How i see it on the table is that without increase of cost a wizard won't leave his tower or place of leisure to cast a spell on you. You generally have to go to him, and then also provide any costly spell components at her request.

All this tends to put a big damper on PCs readily going to seek a wizard everytime they need a potion or something the higher level they get. They would rather, as a matter of course, recruit a wizard into the party as a PC or as a follower with leadership feat / skills.


The table environment does not exist here in any degree as far as I have seen. thus I believe 4th level and above potions would further promote solo status. I do believe in some systems to support solo play, but this isn't one of them. It'd tip the scale too far.

I will digress shortly to state that i've attempted to remedy the lax environment surrounding magical crafting because magic is a dear part of almost any game I have ever played but it is a no go currently. I hope to try again in the future however.

I also, don't believe the solution is an OOC one, or at least, not directly an OOC one.

And lastly, I do agree however that some consistancy should be maintained. No NPC should be brewing or selling level 4 and above potions unless they're a cleric of these established gods with access to the proper domains. It may seem draconian, but it is my view on it. That, or the NPC has access to these others, as they would in temple stores, NPCs with religious affiliations, etc.
I trained up double-edged bananas because the uber-plantain of doom I scored from the beehive quest was the best weapon in the game. Now it's being treated like a bug and they have gimped its damage! That's not fair! My character is ruined!

Vaemar
Sword Grand Master
Sword Grand Master
Posts: 665
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2015 11:21 am

Re: Brew!

Post by Vaemar » Wed Jun 08, 2016 3:46 pm

Yemin wrote:The table environment does not exist here in any degree as far as I have seen. thus I believe 4th level and above potions would further promote solo status. I do believe in some systems to support solo play, but this isn't one of them. It'd tip the scale too far.
I really don't get your point. At present you can buy a 4th level potion, like cure critical, from a mob, and cheaply too.

Then what would make it any different than getting it from a PC?

At least the latter involves two PCs interacting, the first only a PC and a mob.

But to put it bluntly I simply disagree that 4th level spells would make things unbalanced.

Apart from stone skin, restoration and a few others the rest would be spells already available like tongues or neutralise poison. Neutralise poison in particular is so unbalanced to be brewed by a priest that you can have it cast on you by any mob healer.

Yemin
Sword Grand Master
Sword Grand Master
Posts: 1589
Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2014 3:08 pm
Location: On the back of castle oblivion

Re: Brew!

Post by Yemin » Wed Jun 08, 2016 4:17 pm

I think the question is, how cheap is cheap.

To be blunt the problem I see is player made potions being given away for cheaper than cheap, or for free.

Also, most NPC potions tend to perform the minimum amount the spell can do. This tends to mean that a potion of cure critical from a NPC isn't as good as a PC triple or even a double cure serious but that requires testing. I know other potions, armor, heal etc tend to behave like this. Also, I did agree however that PCs should be able to brew these potions though that NPCs should be under the same restraints as PCs.
I trained up double-edged bananas because the uber-plantain of doom I scored from the beehive quest was the best weapon in the game. Now it's being treated like a bug and they have gimped its damage! That's not fair! My character is ruined!

Vaemar
Sword Grand Master
Sword Grand Master
Posts: 665
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2015 11:21 am

Re: Brew!

Post by Vaemar » Wed Jun 08, 2016 4:28 pm

Yemin wrote:I think the question is, how cheap is cheap.

To be blunt the problem I see is player made potions being given away for cheaper than cheap, or for free.
Well, I think it should be up to the caster if they want to give away the time needed for brewing, not little, and the cost of the components, again not often so cheap like gem powder for example. I mean, it is like in real life, if you want to throw your money out of the window it is mostly up to you.

As for the potions, the ones I saw were priced about 2 platinums each. A fair price in my opinion and in fact I saw among the characters with access to them no real abuse. In the end one used them only when in dire need, not too differently from PC-made ones. At least, again, in my experience.

P.S.
I also start to really wonder if it were not better to have a system where the highest level of brewable spells is determined by the skill and not set as the same for everyone. Perhaps a system where the skill identifies the max level could have some merit. In particular skill 1-5 → 1st level spells, 6-10 → 2nd level, 11-15 → 3rd level, 16-20 → 4th level, 21-25 → 5th level.

Yemin
Sword Grand Master
Sword Grand Master
Posts: 1589
Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2014 3:08 pm
Location: On the back of castle oblivion

Re: Brew!

Post by Yemin » Wed Jun 08, 2016 4:53 pm

As for brew determined levels I suppose I wouldn't mind that.

Though, what I stated has been my experience as a longterm, invested caster.

I haven't really experienced brewing to be anything like a real life. crafting trade. At higher levels, the cost of gem powder is mostly ignored. Components do not get used up as they once did and so even brewing a theortical 10 potions of stone skin x 3 the usesof gem powder at a guess would just about use perhaps 1 or two pinches at my current caster's skill level with it, that's some 8 platinum. 8 platinum is an amount gained by clearing out the howling peaks or killing a few dummies around waterdeep.

I'm not an advocate for components getting more expensive unless all the components that in dnd cost less than 1 gp are removed and so cost nothing to balance that direction out.

I currently see the only way of making this work is some IC regulation that is semistrictly to strictly enforced by a majority of brewers. Though i'm of course open to any suggestion that works.

Besides, it may be assuming far too much but the relative lack of implementations in this area since I began playing lead me to conjecture that the staff are cautious about making magic even more common place than it is.

I do have a question though. Is this source of cure critical potions in an area very well populated by the mud? Or is it in the underdark? That alone should say what the intent is for them. I've personally never seen potions like that for that cheap in my usual haunts but It's possible i simply missed htem.
I trained up double-edged bananas because the uber-plantain of doom I scored from the beehive quest was the best weapon in the game. Now it's being treated like a bug and they have gimped its damage! That's not fair! My character is ruined!

Vaemar
Sword Grand Master
Sword Grand Master
Posts: 665
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2015 11:21 am

Re: Brew!

Post by Vaemar » Wed Jun 08, 2016 5:00 pm

Yemin wrote:Or is it in the underdark? That alone should say what the intent is for them.
The ones I saw are in the Underdark. But I am aware there are some more expensive alternatives in more accessible places.

Yemin
Sword Grand Master
Sword Grand Master
Posts: 1589
Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2014 3:08 pm
Location: On the back of castle oblivion

Re: Brew!

Post by Yemin » Wed Jun 08, 2016 5:19 pm

*nods*

I would say then the price is a result of that harsher locale. The ones i've seen in my usual haunts have been more expensive than they are really worth.

Somewhere in the middle between 2 and 30 platinum would be fair for such on the surface I guess.

But going back to the topic at hand. I don't see opening up higher levels to potion making to actually help the mud at the moment. I would rather see NPCs handed out the same restrictions and be given reasonable prices for their goods.

I think though,we may have a very different experience of potion use in our respective time here and so this is why our views oppose on this matter.
I trained up double-edged bananas because the uber-plantain of doom I scored from the beehive quest was the best weapon in the game. Now it's being treated like a bug and they have gimped its damage! That's not fair! My character is ruined!

Areia
Sword Grand Master
Sword Grand Master
Posts: 482
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:11 pm

Re: Brew!

Post by Areia » Wed Jun 08, 2016 6:39 pm

Stone skin, death ward, freedom of movement, divine power, restoration, ice/fire/shock shield, etc., etc. These are all fourth level spells and I think would be much too powerful in easily-obtained potions. Man, what Areia would do for potions of death ward + freedom of movement.

I think what I've seen, especially on my newer, lesser-known wizard, is that a fair percentage of noncasters would rather buy fifty potions or just get a friend (or a complete stranger) to buff them up and go off alone than actually take that caster along in the adventure with them. It seems to make lower level casters feel much less useful than they are if another PC can and will just brew up for free everything the novice can cast. I think making higher level spells brewable would only worsen this issue, in addition to encouraging more solo play in general.

Edited to clarify some things.
Nascentes morimur, finisque ab origine pendet.

Vaemar
Sword Grand Master
Sword Grand Master
Posts: 665
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2015 11:21 am

Re: Brew!

Post by Vaemar » Wed Jun 08, 2016 7:36 pm

Areia wrote:I think what I've seen, especially on my newer, lesser-known wizard, is that a fair percentage of noncasters would rather buy fifty potions or just get a friend (or a complete stranger) to buff them up and go off alone than actually take that caster along in the adventure with them.
I don't question the frustration of the experience. But frankly this is not a justified reaction. The players who would do that are hardly going to take the caster with them anyway, regardless of the levels of potions available. It is probably better to look for somebody else to play with, at least this was my experience.
It seems to make lower level casters feel much less useful than they are if another PC can and will just brew up for free everything the novice can cast. I think making higher level spells brewable would only worsen this issue, in addition to encouraging more solo play in general.
In some cases solo-play is a consequence one lives with unhappily. Take for example the Underdark where it is rare to be in more than three characters together.

Yemin
Sword Grand Master
Sword Grand Master
Posts: 1589
Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2014 3:08 pm
Location: On the back of castle oblivion

Re: Brew!

Post by Yemin » Wed Jun 08, 2016 7:55 pm

Since the underdark is the minority, I would propose fixing the underdark, rather than revamping A class wide system to suit that area. Like I said above, there are other, more direct methods of supporting solo play without using a tool that exists for something else in their place and I would be in favor for those other methods.

I do feel you are right though. People who exhibit the described behaviour will not change with a simple restriction or laxing of certain OOC mechanics. It is an IC disease that requires an IC solution in my opinion.
I trained up double-edged bananas because the uber-plantain of doom I scored from the beehive quest was the best weapon in the game. Now it's being treated like a bug and they have gimped its damage! That's not fair! My character is ruined!

Post Reply