[New Race]Kobolds

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Maetha
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[New Race]Kobolds

Post by Maetha » Tue Oct 20, 2015 2:45 am

SRD Entry Here

To get personal details out of the way, I've always been a big fan of our little draconian brethren. I enjoy their fluff and their theme. I started a guide for playing them in Pathfinder, and Svenrick and I even had the discussion that they would fit in amidst multiple settlements better than their alternative counterpart, Goblins.

That said, I personally would be willing to put in the effort to see the race included, and Svenrick has also volunteered to work on the race. On that note, would more of you be interested in playing Kobolds if effort was put into their creation? I know Svenrick and myself would- of course- play them and enjoy them purely for our own- but of course as a community, the onus for such a project would be interest FROM the community.

Do you agree or disagree? Would you play a Kobold if the option was present- and if so, do you think they (having a weakness) would be a cheaper alternative to the Goblin kismet-wise?

Some examples to support the inclusion of Kobold PCs:
Deekin, of course.
The kobolds in Rat Hill (The data is in the game, thus it would be more simple to edit them to be playable)
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Re: [New Race]Kobolds

Post by Svenrick » Tue Oct 20, 2015 3:02 am

I've had interest in playing a Goblin because I liked the idea of playing a simple monstrous humanoid to show that there are "lesser races" to interact with even if it meant being tossed around, treated poorly, and weak in comparison to other available choices because the roleplay seems atmospheric and fun, but the 200 Kismet cost for Goblins was too rich for my blood due to the fact that I'd have to exist outside most settlements and player-on-player interaction would be less likely than other options I could use the Kismet on.

I'm concerned that we would see an over-saturation of the race if it was newly implemented with a disproportionate amount of players at least trying it out so we would need self-imposed restrictions on how they behave if they are in a more civilized setting (Trying to remain unseen, incentive to play Roguish Kobolds by heavier kismet restriction [A kismet check, versus a cost preferably] on Mages/Clerics and lesser restrictions on Warrior classes.)

On the other hand I feel that it has the potential to be a good contribution toward the more "evil" or "wild" races and their presence within Faerun as well as the dynamic it would add between them and Gnomes due to their racial hatred of one another.
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Re: [New Race]Kobolds

Post by Terageld » Tue Oct 20, 2015 12:26 pm

Eh... not sure how I feel about kobolds. If we're gonna add races, we might as well add a whole bunch of 'em. Tabaxi, wild dwarves, centaurs, yuan-ti, gnolls, and giants are also races I wanna see in the game. Especially the tabaxi. I like cats.
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Re: [New Race]Kobolds

Post by Yemin » Tue Oct 20, 2015 12:34 pm

I believe at one point there were a bunch of different races in game. Far more than there are now. Averial elves, centaurs, so on and so forth. They were removed in part I think because we're a relatively small player base and there is such a thing as oversaturation of choice.

Kobold is actually one of the only monstrous race I'd play... but only because I love their tactics. Their overlooked, but kobolds are the ultimate trapsters of the Fr universe. Its what they do and what they should be good at. if your not critical with looking, entering a kobold lair incurs death without ever seeing scales. That and their possibly delusional proud draconic heritage make them pretty attractive to me... just not on FK. I've never seen a trap used by a player in the game though I've seen a few items that hint at it being possible.

In short, love the race. I don't think we need another race though. If one is introduced, one should be swappe dout. I'd be willing to play kobolds, If traps were a viable tactic to detur combat and of use in protecting yourself with.
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Re: [New Race]Kobolds

Post by Ungtar » Tue Oct 20, 2015 3:09 pm

I'm all for the diversity of choice, but I think what you'd find is the same thing you run into right now with goblins.

In addition, it'll be a monstrous race that associates exclusively with its own kind. They're no good alone. Are there enough other people wanting to play them on a regular basis? And I don't mean as an 18th alt that they bring out for 30 minutes in the morning when nobody else they know is playing.

Still, choices are good and I love, love, love monstrous races. I'd play an ogre if I could. If the people who want to do this are the ones doing the lion's share of the work then I say let them at it.

A suggestion though ... maybe before the code work is done (if it isn't in place already and easy to do), run this as an application process and see if it would be as cool as you think it would be. Every time resources are devoted to something special and then it doesn't get used, I would guess it makes the staff less receptive to future ideas.

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Re: [New Race]Kobolds

Post by Maetha » Tue Oct 20, 2015 6:48 pm

Ungtar wrote:I'm all for the diversity of choice, but I think what you'd find is the same thing you run into right now with goblins.

In addition, it'll be a monstrous race that associates exclusively with its own kind. They're no good alone. Are there enough other people wanting to play them on a regular basis? And I don't mean as an 18th alt that they bring out for 30 minutes in the morning when nobody else they know is playing.

Still, choices are good and I love, love, love monstrous races. I'd play an ogre if I could. If the people who want to do this are the ones doing the lion's share of the work then I say let them at it.

A suggestion though ... maybe before the code work is done (if it isn't in place already and easy to do), run this as an application process and see if it would be as cool as you think it would be. Every time resources are devoted to something special and then it doesn't get used, I would guess it makes the staff less receptive to future ideas.
As far as I've seen, the staff is already not receptive to ideas at all- regardless of positive or negative connotations, hence why I personally was willing to put in the effort necessary- for the sheer fact that -I- want it, so -I'd- do it.
Terageld wrote:Eh... not sure how I feel about kobolds. If we're gonna add races, we might as well add a whole bunch of 'em. Tabaxi, wild dwarves, centaurs, yuan-ti, gnolls, and giants are also races I wanna see in the game. Especially the tabaxi. I like cats.
I love gnolls and the like- but in comparison not many would play them- just the same as Orcs and Goblins as it is- with the inability to use most any "Normal" zone of rest. Part of my thought process with this whole ordeal was, if nothing else, that I'd have to design areas -for- monstrous race gathering so they would be more "viable" as characters- but if I'm going to go to that much effort, I want something personally out of it all- hence why I'd like to get to play one of my favorite races. I AM BECOME KURTULMAK, MAKER OF WARRENS!
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Re: [New Race]Kobolds

Post by Gwain » Wed Oct 21, 2015 12:00 am

Maetha wrote:
As far as I've seen, the staff is already not receptive to ideas at all- regardless of positive or negative connotations, hence why I personally was willing to put in the effort necessary- for the sheer fact that -I- want it, so -I'd- do it.
Several years ago, a fair amount of monstrous races were introduced as playable options in game. What ended up happening was that they were under played or poorly rp'd, lacked support and/or overpowered. What ended up happening after a long period of trial and error was that most of the races were closed off. Players that had existing chars were allowed to keep them. I've seen a few around, but I think that the only plausible way you'd ever see them in game is if there was enough support and demand to support them.

And I am of the opinion that the staff work with the ideas given to them as best as possible at the rate they can. Everything has a limit, soft code can only go so far, hard code is very difficult to master and people work on a volunteer basis. We have no idea what kind of backlog exists, but I think they tackle it very well for volunteers. Food for thought.
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Re: [New Race]Kobolds

Post by Ungtar » Wed Oct 21, 2015 12:35 am

Didn't I hear something about Mask having a new baby in the house?

Though it's a blessing and a joy, it's a black hole from which no free time can escape. :)

I got 5 of them!

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Re: [New Race]Kobolds

Post by Svenrick » Wed Oct 21, 2015 1:33 am

Thanks for the feedback here, guys.

It seems like a more simple type of "evil" that thrives off of bestial survival and greed rather than a more "civilized" (I use this word lightly, mind you.) dark heart like a necromancer, lawyer, or other similarly citified villains.

Kobolds are quite niche, I'll admit, but I'm seeing some support, albeit vague, for new races. Aside from Ungtar's support of Ogres are there any other races that would contribute to the game as a whole rather than this potentially small sub-section of players?

Ungtar raises an excellent point that a key issue in the proper roleplay of these would be their tendency to stick to their own race as far as roleplay and interaction goes. Are there any monstrous races that would suffer this less than Orcs and Goblins already do?

Are new races something that would even add to the roleplay to a degree that could be considered significant?

Which races were there particular trouble with?

Is there any way to balance these new races and would it add something for everyone?

Beyond the Kobolds I'd like to see more of a community among monstrous humanoids like my Mountain Orc character which I've enjoyed much more than the Drow that I played.

What is everyone else's experience in this?

A ton of questions I know, but it goes beyond our own personal desire of the Kobold. I'd rather see what everyone thinks of the bigger picture and if new races of any type are even viable in the current environment. I just ask that you keep in mind that we're more than willing to contribute our fair part to these ideas such as building necessary areas and even learning the coding skills necessary to help implement them. I can't promise that it would be done within a timely manner, but it is a project I'm willing to devote my gratuitous amounts of spare time to.

Cheers and I'm looking forward to more feedback!
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Re: [New Race]Kobolds

Post by Ungtar » Wed Oct 21, 2015 1:54 am

I question what the roleplay would be if you AREN'T a kobold and you run into one somewhere. What would be a normal IC reaction for an adventurer?

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Re: [New Race]Kobolds

Post by Maetha » Wed Oct 21, 2015 2:21 am

Gwain wrote:
And I am of the opinion that the staff work with the ideas given to them as best as possible at the rate they can. Everything has a limit, soft code can only go so far, hard code is very difficult to master and people work on a volunteer basis. We have no idea what kind of backlog exists, but I think they tackle it very well for volunteers. Food for thought.
I would appreciate this fact more if volunteers were welcomed. But when I made an effort to reach out and offer to help, I was denied and told that "only one person knows how to operate the code."

At this point, my vitriol is raising to an unacceptable level, so I'll refrain from continuing from here- this thread is about creativity and advancing the game instead of my (not Svenrick's, not anyone else's, MY OWN PERSONAL FEELINGS) experiences with the staff. I wanted to add something personal to the game, and this is my second attempt to offer freely to code and help with the hard-sector of the game and server. Of course, my own selfish whim (Kobolds themselves) is apparent, so I understand if I don't garner the support I'd hope for.
Ungtar wrote:I question what the roleplay would be if you AREN'T a kobold and you run into one somewhere. What would be a normal IC reaction for an adventurer?
Roleplay! The same thing that would happen if you ran into a goblin, orc, drow, elf, etc.
Ungtar wrote:Didn't I hear something about Mask having a new baby in the house?

Though it's a blessing and a joy, it's a black hole from which no free time can escape. :)

I got 5 of them!
Dear gods, why do you have five children?! YOU SET THOSE CHILDREN FREE THIS INSTANT, VILE VILLAIN.

Jest aside, I understand completely- being a parent of a five year old myself. They take up plenty of time, but I repeat myself- I'm fully willing to learn and do codework for the server. I love this game- even if the community has rubbed me wrong before, I would be remiss if I let it push me away from something I can and do enjoy with friends.
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Re: [New Race]Kobolds

Post by Ungtar » Wed Oct 21, 2015 2:45 am

Most muds hold on to that code as something very private and secretive. It's almost always the private work of one or two individuals. This (FK) is the norm, not the exception.

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Re: [New Race]Kobolds

Post by Gwain » Wed Oct 21, 2015 3:02 am

I'm actually not staff. I just really like them.

If they added kobolds tomorrow I'd probably make one, but probably not the day after that. Beacuse that's Svirf Day! :)

But seriously, there is always a possibility for additional things like kobolds, but the code is fickle, especially with weight and race type settings, levels, skillsets etc. I'd wait and see if solutions to wider ranging issues can be found. Though I have no authority or say over what is added and what is not in the scheme of things.
Last edited by Gwain on Wed Oct 21, 2015 3:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [New Race]Kobolds

Post by Ungtar » Wed Oct 21, 2015 3:04 am

Gwain wrote:I'm actually not staff. I just really like them.

If they added kobolds tomorrow I'd probably make one, but probably not the day after that. Beacuse that's Svirf Day!
Are we actually going to see you play a svirf on Svirf Day or are you going to be outside Blingdenstone with Gwain, catching young svirfs in a burlap sack?

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Re: [New Race]Kobolds

Post by Gwain » Wed Oct 21, 2015 3:10 am

Can't it be both?
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Re: [New Race]Kobolds

Post by Lylena » Wed Oct 21, 2015 3:17 am

Ungtar wrote:Are we actually going to see you play a svirf on Svirf Day or are you going to be outside Blingdenstone with Gwain, catching young svirfs in a burlap sack?
He collects them like he collected halflings for halfling chow. It's...for science...and preferred food tastes.
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Re: [New Race]Kobolds

Post by Yemin » Wed Oct 21, 2015 4:33 am

It takes time to mold to a game. A newcomer isn't going to be given the chance to contribute code or jump on as a builder or IM and often aren't taken seriously because in my 10 years of mudding, I've seem some incredibly vicious things happen to muds that were too open with that sort of thing. By, see, I mean read about on Forums.

Conversely, it takes time for the IMs to get to know each player and for you as a player to see the direction the IMs want the game to go in. So often in these cases, about your first 20- 30 or so on, suggestions tend to be denied or seen with reluctance. It took me about 9 months to understand what kinds of suggestions are accepted.

I say this not to reproach but just to give some perspective. Compared to the IMs in the mud I played as my main before FK and the majority of them out there... Well, lets just leave it at that i came away from my previous with very strong rl feelings about the management there involving a blunt spoon and in comparison, even my bumpiest bits on FK where I took an extended break doesn't come close.

upon thinking about monstrous races in general. I was actually curious about the recent Brasskull camp event. Was the camp moved into the underdark because uncivilised races play better with evil? I'm just generally curious. It could be interesting if we did have Kobolds to have it in like.. .the draco graveyard down there and have Drow Pcs raid and take PC house slaves or something.
I trained up double-edged bananas because the uber-plantain of doom I scored from the beehive quest was the best weapon in the game. Now it's being treated like a bug and they have gimped its damage! That's not fair! My character is ruined!

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Re: [New Race]Kobolds

Post by Maetha » Wed Oct 21, 2015 5:07 am

Yemin wrote:It takes time to mold to a game. A newcomer isn't going to be given the chance to contribute code or jump on as a builder or IM and often aren't taken seriously because in my 10 years of mudding, I've seem some incredibly vicious things happen to muds that were too open with that sort of thing. By, see, I mean read about on Forums.

Conversely, it takes time for the IMs to get to know each player and for you as a player to see the direction the IMs want the game to go in. So often in these cases, about your first 20- 30 or so on, suggestions tend to be denied or seen with reluctance. It took me about 9 months to understand what kinds of suggestions are accepted.

I say this not to reproach but just to give some perspective. Compared to the IMs in the mud I played as my main before FK and the majority of them out there... Well, lets just leave it at that i came away from my previous with very strong rl feelings about the management there involving a blunt spoon and in comparison, even my bumpiest bits on FK where I took an extended break doesn't come close.

upon thinking about monstrous races in general. I was actually curious about the recent Brasskull camp event. Was the camp moved into the underdark because uncivilised races play better with evil? I'm just generally curious. It could be interesting if we did have Kobolds to have it in like.. .the draco graveyard down there and have Drow Pcs raid and take PC house slaves or something.
First, I'd support Kobolds dealing with such events- since it would also reinvigorate Drow players, I'd think.

For the rest, I'll simply say: Complain not of your woes if you would not have them lessened. Back onto topic.
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Re: [New Race]Kobolds

Post by Yemin » Wed Oct 21, 2015 3:30 pm

Heh, a fair point.
I trained up double-edged bananas because the uber-plantain of doom I scored from the beehive quest was the best weapon in the game. Now it's being treated like a bug and they have gimped its damage! That's not fair! My character is ruined!

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Re: [New Race]Kobolds

Post by Algon » Wed Oct 21, 2015 4:50 pm

Maetha wrote: At this point, my vitriol is raising to an unacceptable level, so I'll refrain from continuing from here- this thread is about creativity and advancing the game instead of my (not Svenrick's, not anyone else's, MY OWN PERSONAL FEELINGS) experiences with the staff. I wanted to add something personal to the game, and this is my second attempt to offer freely to code and help with the hard-sector of the game and server. Of course, my own selfish whim (Kobolds themselves) is apparent, so I understand if I don't garner the support I'd hope for.
I would like to point out that you WERE contacted in regards to being helped with learning to code things and you turned down that opportunity due to the time frame not being to your liking. So please, do not come here and bash the staff because they did not move quickly enough for your taste. This is a purely VOLUNTARY thing that the staff members do. They are not in any way, shape, or form required to help you learn anything. There is a very expansive section of builder lesson and if you want to learn...stop waiting for someone to contact you and go learn.
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