Newbie Feedback

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Lyndin
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Newbie Feedback

Post by Lyndin » Tue Jun 06, 2017 12:11 pm

I've spent about six or seven hours exploring Waterdeep and Daggerford, and I cannot find a Constitution Trainer that can take me to 16. Even after asking other players for advice, I've only found four or five Constitution trainers. CON 15 is as high as they can take me so far. This is frustrating because it makes 15 constitution and below seem like a trap option in character creation. On this character I went 14 constitution and 14 wisdom, in complete ignorance for how the game environment works. Advancing that to 16 constitution and 14 wisdom is proving to be MUCH more difficult than it would have been if I started with 16 constitution and 12 wisdom.

I'm catching on to the fact that a certain amount of insider knowledge (where to find spells, skills, components, etc.) is considered desirable here. I do not think that punishing certain attribute distributions in this fashion is particularly productive, especially since anyone who is aware of the issue is going to simply distribute their stats to avoid the issue when making new characters.

Please consider raising the minimum attribute ceiling for all attribute trainers to 16, which is maximum available in character generation. It would eliminate the problem with trap options, and reduce the risk of new players finding themselves frustrated at levels 1, 5, and 10, without meaningfully changing the game balance in any way. I understand this could be an onerous chore for builders (dag, the map is large), but fortunately this is the sort of thing you can accomplish with a simple sanity check in the code.

Skylar
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Re: Newbie Feedback

Post by Skylar » Tue Jun 06, 2017 1:01 pm

I can agree with the sentiment. Having a trainer not able to hit 16 seems a bit like an oversight or a relic of elder days at FK when things worked a little differently. Stick it out though, I'm sure someone will help you find it if you just persevere a little longer. Good luck and welcome to FK!
"Some of us try hard to make the world a better place than it was when we found it. I know that's what I try to do. I won't always be successful, but that's life."
~Kara Zor-El

Thurgan
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Re: Newbie Feedback

Post by Thurgan » Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:21 pm

I do see your point, and it would indeed be an undertaking to change that many old world trainers that are in existence. However, there are at least 2 npcs in waterdeep that will train con to 16 or above. And they are not hidded away on the 13th floor of a temple through an additional maze of rooms either.

You will find that skills, spells, and attribute trainers are scattered around greatly. This is both a blessing and a curse. It kind of forces you to get out there and explore, and learn the areas instead of having a one stop shop.

I know the trainers in most newbie areas do train all stats to 16. I havn't used the revamped waterdeep starting area yet really so I can't vouch for those specific trainers.

If you are a rough time finding something specific, new player or not, then I would suggest spending some time in the market square rping or other common areas and pose your questions that way and you will be surprised

Lyndin
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Re: Newbie Feedback

Post by Lyndin » Wed Jun 07, 2017 1:37 am

Thank you both for responding!

I'll give Market Square another try, then. I've already spent a few nights there asking for help on this one (I'm up to 17 hours played, total, maybe 3 or 4 of them in MS?). Maybe my timing has simply been unlucky so far. The only ones I've found personally exploring the city are armorers, all of which max out at 15. Regardless of the intent of motivating roleplay, I stand by my original suggestion that they raise the minimum cap to 16 for these and other attribute trainers. Going from 16->20 seems motivation enough, since it applies to everyone who creates a character, not just everyone who knows what they're doing.

Selveem
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Re: Newbie Feedback

Post by Selveem » Thu Jun 08, 2017 12:07 am

Lyndin, we are extremely fortunate for you and others who came before you who provided such insights. Many of us have been here for so very long that we forget some of the smallest things that plague new players.

For what it's worth, I agree with you. I feel confident I'm not the only one, either.

As others have suggested, networking in-character is important. I did want to provide a word of warning, though: keep in mind it's not in every character to be helpful and/or knowledgeable. Some are not properly motivated by the question of some random stranger. Don't take it personally; it's IC! :D

Also, don't be discouraged!

Remember that every character you play has its own journey and progression. It's something I had to learn the hard way over the years. :wink:

Even if things don't/can't/won't change, discussion is good! Please do continue to provide us your experiences as all players benefit from sharing them.
This land shall come to the God who knows the answer to War. -Ninety-Nine Nights

Lyndin
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Re: Newbie Feedback

Post by Lyndin » Fri Jun 09, 2017 2:09 pm

One final bit of feedback before I go: why the heck can't unspecialized wizards learn and cast real second level spells? Glitterdust and Bulls Strength would make the grind a whole lot more tolerable, but most importantly, I would kill for the ability to turn invisible.

Vaemar
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Re: Newbie Feedback

Post by Vaemar » Fri Jun 09, 2017 2:12 pm

Unguilded wizard cannot cast any level 2 or higher spell because they need to choose whether they want to become generalist mages or specialists, joining the appropriate guild.

Once your character joins the guild of your choosing through the quest all spells will become available to them (barring, for specialists, those of their forbidden schools).

Lyndin
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Re: Newbie Feedback

Post by Lyndin » Fri Jun 09, 2017 2:31 pm

Vaemar wrote:Unguilded wizard cannot cast any level 2 or higher spell because they need to choose whether they want to become generalist mages or specialists, joining the appropriate guild.

Once your character joins the guild of your choosing through the quest all spells will become available to them (barring, for specialists, those of their forbidden schools).
Yes, I understand that is the mechanic. I'm asking why that mechanical choice was made. You start the game with level 0 and level 1 spells that must be lost upon specialization--I was warned that transmuters lose access to Shield, for instance. Why can't you allow unguilded wizards to learn invisibility before specialization?

Heck, I'll keep going.

One of the things that caught my eye at first is how close this game cleaves to the 3.X tabletop ruleset. Now, D&D is balanced around group play, and wizards especially lean heavily on their party members at low levels. This mud already heavily punishes grouping up for a low level wizard with the way XP is distributed on kills, as (at least my) wizard's wimpy melee attacks don't do enough damage to earn a whole lot of XP. I got dragged through Rat Hill and my XP progress meter did not move from kills; the quest XP was the only reward. Punishing any attempt to progress solo by locking the class's defining feature behind a questline is adding insult to injury.

I really enjoyed the community here, but some of the mechanical decisions are honestly just bewildering. Why split the kill XP up by damage done? D&D ships with group XP distribution rules that work just fine.

Why lock spell access behind a questline? Nobody on earth believes that beating dummies to death for hours on end is a respectful use of your players' time.

Why transport new players naked to their recall point on death? At least provide them the means to communicate ICly with their friends. I would guess that corpse retrieval is more difficult before level 10 than after it, since there's the additional obstruction of finding a method to communicate that ghosts apparently do not suffer.

Vaemar
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Re: Newbie Feedback

Post by Vaemar » Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:22 pm

Lyndin wrote:Yes, I understand that is the mechanic. I'm asking why that mechanical choice was made. You start the game with level 0 and level 1 spells that must be lost upon specialization--I was warned that transmuters lose access to Shield, for instance. Why can't you allow unguilded wizards to learn invisibility before specialization?

If it is of any consolation, the invisibility spell requires a rare and expensive component that is very difficult to obtain for a low level character, so even if you unlocked it, you won't be able to cast it anyway. Also, in general, many short lasting spells are not very handy at early levels because they last too little and take too much time to be regenerated.

Selveem
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Re: Newbie Feedback

Post by Selveem » Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:34 pm

Lyndin wrote:Why split the kill XP up by damage done? D&D ships with group XP distribution rules that work just fine.
I won't pretend to know all the reasons, but I suspect this was originally intended to curb powerleveling. That said, it's a personal pet peeve of mine, as well. As a player who primarily plays Fighters, I tend to group more with Clerics than any other class. Sometimes I'm grouping with them for leveling purposes. They keep me alive and I end up doing the bulk of the damage, cheating them of their own exp.

I'd like to see this changed, too! :)
Lyndin wrote:Why lock spell access behind a questline?
I partially disagree with this, but would like skills, spells, and feats to be more accessible. As an example, I believe higher Dual Wield feats are still locked to a specific alignment (evil, or a Neutral willing to commit an evil act) or class (Ranger). And, even then, you really have to go out of your way to obtain them.
Lyndin wrote:Nobody on earth believes that beating dummies to death for hours on end is a respectful use of your players' time.
I agree with you on this point, as well. I think that skill-ups should be more commonplace - especially when you consider the higher level spells you simply -can't- cast all that often.
Lyndin wrote:Why transport new players naked to their recall point on death? At least provide them the means to communicate ICly with their friends. I would guess that corpse retrieval is more difficult before level 10 than after it, since there's the additional obstruction of finding a method to communicate that ghosts apparently do not suffer.
Not a bad point. I believe the logic behind it is to condition the player towards the idea that death is supposed to be a horrible thing not to be taken lightly, but I won't pretend to understand the psychological interests of the mechanics. :) I wouldn't mind newbies keeping their stuff.
This land shall come to the God who knows the answer to War. -Ninety-Nine Nights

Thurgan
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Re: Newbie Feedback

Post by Thurgan » Sat Jun 10, 2017 7:20 pm

I don't know how true the xp being locked to damage delt truly is. I'm sure its some kind of calculation, but it really has more to do with the level of people your with. I can almost guranteee that in your case you were running through rat hill with people that were a lot higher than you to get no to little xp. As a general rule of thumb you probably want to stay within say 10 lvls or so of someone for the best xp. I have done the same with low lvl wizards many of times barely casting a spell or hitting a thing and getting lots of xp steadily.

You definitely arnt punished for grouping, that's just silly. But if your a lvl 1-10 and grouping with say a lvl 20-30 your not going to get any xp worth mentioning.

I can relate to all of your frustrations, some of them, well many of them can be mitigated by going about things differently.

I always recommend to everyone to push from lvl 5 to lvl 11 as fast as possible, because after that it gets much better...mainly because the silly death situation is much easier then.

This game can be really hard solo, especially if your unfamiliar with it. Its all about grouping, talking to people and networking. One thing that is probably compounding your frustrations is playing a wizard as a new character. They are definitely hands down the most difficult starting out and even harder for a new player.

Lorelie
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Re: Newbie Feedback

Post by Lorelie » Sat Jun 10, 2017 8:59 pm

As Thurgan said, you are not punished for grouping. Codewise you earn more XP by grouping than solo.

Lyndin
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Re: Newbie Feedback

Post by Lyndin » Thu Jun 15, 2017 9:52 am

Lorelie wrote:As Thurgan said, you are not punished for grouping. Codewise you earn more XP by grouping than solo.
The first group I joined was much too large. Lyndin hardly got any hits in, so his share was near zero. Later attempts with pairs and trios went a lot better (though part of that is probably access to bulls strength, which doubles his physical output.)
Lyndin wrote:Why lock spell access behind a questline?
This makes a little more sense to me now. In terms of XP, spells are expensive, especially if you buy them as soon as they unlock (even worse, if you buy them sooner). Second level spells are a lot easier to buy up at level 10 than level 6.

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