Crippling Strike

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Aldren
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Crippling Strike

Post by Aldren » Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:25 pm

Suggestion to update the helpfile for Crippling Strike to reflect that a thief must have a bonus feat point to train this. Sad thieves ensue.
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Re: Crippling Strike

Post by Vaemar » Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:36 pm

Thief Feats
===========
The following feats are available only to members of the thieves' guild (not
unguilded rogues, or bards), and require they have a bonus feat point in
order to train them.

(A) Arterial Strike Feat (B) Bonus Feats
(C) Feats (D) Improved Evasion Feat
(E) Opportunist Feat (F) Slippery Mind Feat

(-) Return to Crippling Strike Feat
It is explained in the "Thieves Feats" helpfile, but certainly a reminder in the single feat pages would help.

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Re: Crippling Strike

Post by Lyndin » Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:49 am

Unrelated suggestion to reduce (if absolute in duration) or cap (if it stacks in duration) the length at which someone hit with Crippling Strike is crippled. For a monster, it doesn't matter, the PC is probably going to kill it in a minute or two at most. For a PC, three real-life hours of -6 strength is possibly more punishing than death.

If not that, please extend the Heal spell to treat the damage. It fixes basically everything else, so it's odd that it can't clear this affliction.

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Re: Crippling Strike

Post by Lirith » Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:12 am

Changing this would take away one of the few real threats to other PCs that thieves have. They can't compete against most other classes 1v1 as it is and this is really the only thing that creates any sort of danger for someone fighting a thief.
I wouldn't object to NPCs being less stabby in this regard, but again it's one of those challenges that mean you need to plan for fighting a thief NPC in the same way that you might plan for fighting a wizard NPC.

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Re: Crippling Strike

Post by Areia » Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:22 pm

^ Ditto. Without this, there'd be no second thought at all to fighting a thief, and honestly, those who've seen the thief from the class's vantage know that it's ultimately only a small comfort because most other characters will have you dead quickly enough, with or without super strength.

There are many, many, many ways to defend against it, though. So it's not even like a thief, PC or NPC, can very well rely on it in a lot of situations. Just need to find out those ways IC. I've actually found the group planning for those mobs pretty fun.
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Re: Crippling Strike

Post by Lyndin » Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:14 pm

Yeah, I'm not arguing it should be busted all the way down to Short duration, but it's a bit silly that it lasts longer than resurrection sickness and cannot be healed by a spell which explicitly clears all ability damage in tabletop. I'd be fine with removing the Heal counter for the sake of balance concerns if it meant that winning the fight didn't sideline your character for longer than losing the fight would.

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Re: Crippling Strike

Post by Yemin » Thu Aug 31, 2017 4:23 pm

Agreed with Lyn, there's really no need for it to last longer than short duration. Short duration can be anywhere from a few seconds to about 5 rl minutes. I think somewhere near the top end is good since thats an in game hour.

It would still make it worth planning around fighting thief NPCs as 5 mins of this is enough to dramatically slow the party and make the zone more challenging.

I can't really get behind defending a class feature on the basis of annoying potential Pkers enough not to do it. But in this case, I'd say this has a larger effect on people not PKing thieves than it does people actively chasing that option down so I'm in favor for it getting a dramatic shorten. I'd be in favor for either builders not using a certain class feature, or a class feature being changed regardless of clas in these circumstances as more hours are spent fighting NPCs by far, than PCs.


Also, I'd like to ask, has clarification been given anywhere that dispelling it is an abuse of code? considering that has been mentioned before over a year ago and there's been no response from anyone who can do anything about this. Not to mention that in my eyes, as is this feat / skill working far beyond what it should.
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Re: Crippling Strike

Post by Benorf » Thu Aug 31, 2017 4:38 pm

I agree with Yemin and Lyndin. I personally think that it should be removable, but I do understand that we want to make rogues more applicable in PvP situations. As such, I think the duration should be reduced. Make sure its long enough to last a fight, but not so long that you're out for days.

There is nothing more frustrating to me than cruising through some PvE areas and suddenly I lose 8 str to mobs. Aaaaaand because the duration is so absurdly long, I have to stop and go back to some random inn and go afk for 6 hours while I wait for it to go away because when I play nobody is in the market square to RP with and pass the time.
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Re: Crippling Strike

Post by Grenwyn » Thu Aug 31, 2017 4:41 pm

I think it sounds reasonable to have crippling strike last as long as resurrection sickness and be removable with Heal.
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Re: Crippling Strike

Post by Vaemar » Thu Aug 31, 2017 5:06 pm

If we think that thieves will become appealing because of an annoying (and optional) feat, then we are in a sad state of affairs, since that's not the way to go, absolutely. Thieves should be appealing because they have unique and interesting abilities like use magic device or poisons, which right now are sadly underdeveloped, messy or absolutely not working as intended.

Concerning crippling strike I would like to note:

a) There should be a way to heal the strength damage, with restoration possibly or with some other means.

b) I understand that it lasts perhaps way too long, but at the same time the idea of shortening it to a mere 5 minutes does not seem even credible for what is right now one of the most powerful features of a class. A time between half an hour or a whole hour, like the jailtime, seems to me a more reasonable duration, as it would be neither so short to be ignored nor excessively punishing.

c) It was mentioned in the past that perhaps what was needed was just removing it from npc thieves. This may be viable, so that the annoying part comes as a risk only for those who really decide to PvP thieves.

d) If the problem are thieves mobs with backstab, you have always the option to bring a high level thief with improved uncanny dodge. If thieves have to rely on many other classes to visit some areas, it only makes sense that other classes do *sometimes* need thieves to clear certain areas. I don't see how this is a problem, rather an encouragement to have more varied groups.

More in general, regardless of this particular matter in which I agree with the general feelings, I am a bit worried by the latest tendency to make proposals aimed specifically at nerfing, reducing or making less viable the abilities and features of other types of playstyles or classes, in particular when they are perceived as even marginally annoying for those who do such proposals. Some of these features have been thought specifically to be that and most of the time their effects can easily be avoided by either avoiding PvP (diplomacy always wins) or by not visiting certain select areas (alone). This is particularly annoying especially when what is targeted, as in this case, is a class that is definitely not strong in either PvP prowess or ability to solo areas, so what is the point in nerfing it further?

If a nerf is indeed needed let the players of thieves give their informed opinion first.

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Re: Crippling Strike

Post by Hrosskell » Thu Aug 31, 2017 5:16 pm

I'll gladly support a nerf to thieves when we get full-round sneak attacks on eligible rounds. Otherwise, touching this class because of an NPC concern (when the NPCs can have the feat turned off) is ridiculous.
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Re: Crippling Strike

Post by Gwain » Thu Aug 31, 2017 5:38 pm

Have a crippling strike healing option that costs either a chunk of xp or kismet, 50 - 100 platinum or one glory point?
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Re: Crippling Strike

Post by Areia » Thu Aug 31, 2017 5:53 pm

Yemin: Yes, using the method that currently exists to heal the ability damage is major code abuse. Restoration (not heal) is the only thing that should heal it, and that is a bug that, last notified, is in the process of being worked out.

I've written a lot on this topic (see the ~10 threads on crippling strike that came before this lol), so I'll keep it short here.

It's not overpowered, regarding either duration or the strength of the effect itself. We have multiple spells, far more easily learned than crippling strike and able to be invoked far more often, that will impose permanent loss of levels or ability scores. This, by comparison, only lasts an in-game day ish and needs to land far more than once to really become noticeable. And as mentioned above, there are multiple ways to avoid it.

As others have said, crippling strike is honestly one of a few thief skills that works as it should currently (excepting how it is healed after the fact). Sneak attacks, poisons, magic devices, trapping, influence, slippery mind... even their reflex saves until relatively recently (thanks thousands again for that fix!) are either lacking or outright buggy. That's not a complaint, mind, it's just the state of things as they stand, and so I would be very opposed to even think about nerfing crippling strike, which actually works right, until those other things get handled.

But as ever, I'd very much enjoy a config option for crippling strike, so that a thief can turn it off for friendly spars if she wishes.
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Re: Crippling Strike

Post by Benorf » Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:05 pm

I don't think heal should remove Crippling Strike specifically. HOWEVER, as per the SRD rules, the 'Heal' spell reads as follows:

"It immediately ends and and all of the following adverse conditions affecting the target: *ability damage*, blinded, confused, dazed, dazzled, deafened, diseased, exhausted, fatigued, feebleminded, insanity, nauseated, sickened, stunned, and poisoned. ...Heal does not remove negative levels, restore permanently drained levels, or restore permanently drained ability score points."

Heal is super powerful, and according to the rules, SHOULD fix crippling strike, but for balance purposes, I think it'd be fine if it doesn't.
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Re: Crippling Strike

Post by Yemin » Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:28 pm

To clarify, I wasn't suggesting it was overpowered. Its just annoying the same way illusory pit is annoying when used over and over. The two worse game design sins are forcing players to perform repepetive action and locking a player away from the game itself.

personally, I don't see how this is a nerf, reducing duration to something more reasonable doesn't actually make it less powerful. unless there is a strategy where the player can enjoy the benefits of an ability all of that time. All its doing is giving the receiving player a negative experience far beyond and after the thief can actualy benefit from it. It sounds vindictive in design.

To be fair, I wasn't aware that you could make a high level NPC thief without going into the mess of unique mobiles. Perhaps this is a fair middle ground for this topic. But currently, I don't see what difference there is between this feature than if a wizard was to camp and refresh weaken and wave of fatigue on you for an hour or two.

i will agree that thieves, rangers and bards all need class feature help. I can see that without having played any. But this thread is only talking about crippling strike. The ability is currently unbalanced and makes the thief class top heavy towards it. From where i'm standing, any reduction in duration will have no impact on the play experience of the thief themselves.

I guess I'm asking, As part of normal play in an outside of PK, could you give me an example where crippling strike lasting 5 - 10 minutes makes a difference to your experience as a thief? That's the part I don't currently understand.
I trained up double-edged bananas because the uber-plantain of doom I scored from the beehive quest was the best weapon in the game. Now it's being treated like a bug and they have gimped its damage! That's not fair! My character is ruined!

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Re: Crippling Strike

Post by Grenwyn » Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:29 pm

Benorf wrote:Heal is super powerful, and according to the rules, SHOULD fix crippling strike, but for balance purposes, I think it'd be fine if it doesn't.
Does Crippling Strike stack? Perhaps it could remove one "instance" per cast?
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Re: Crippling Strike

Post by Yemin » Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:41 pm

It does,stack, and by the original ability from DND, it should, I don't have a problem with it stacking.

I think restoration is what should fix this. I believe that restores ability point damage originally.
I trained up double-edged bananas because the uber-plantain of doom I scored from the beehive quest was the best weapon in the game. Now it's being treated like a bug and they have gimped its damage! That's not fair! My character is ruined!

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Re: Crippling Strike

Post by Vaemar » Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:47 pm

Yemin wrote:I guess I'm asking, As part of normal play in an outside of PK, could you give me an example where crippling strike lasting 5 - 10 minutes makes a difference to your experience as a thief? That's the part I don't currently understand.
If you can visit the area X waiting barely 10 minutes after facing a group of thieves mobs, which is a pause many spellcasters will need to take anyway to recover the spells, you have one less reasons to rely on a thief PC to help you there. And this means one less opportunity to be mechanically useful for that thief PC. Consider that there are many areas where wizards, priests and fighters are often highly advisable to have, if not required. Why should thieves be made even less useful than they are now, when they are already considered the sixth wheel 99% of the time?

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Re: Crippling Strike

Post by Yemin » Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:51 pm

I don't need a thief to deal with thief PCs though. Just a throwing knife and staggered progression where need be.

I've never actually employed a thief against NPC thieves. What abilities make them good to have against thief NPCs? I'd rather have a thief with me when I go general adventuring. They're much more versatile than fighters for new zone exploration etc in my experience.
I trained up double-edged bananas because the uber-plantain of doom I scored from the beehive quest was the best weapon in the game. Now it's being treated like a bug and they have gimped its damage! That's not fair! My character is ruined!

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Re: Crippling Strike

Post by Vaemar » Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:58 pm

What abilities make them good to have against thief NPCs?
help improved uncanny dodge :P

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