Market wards

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Yemin
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Market wards

Post by Yemin » Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:41 am

A general question to ask whom thinks the Non casting wards currently on the Waterdhavian market center have a positive impact on the room itself and on the game in general. As far as I am aware. They are in place to stop people casting there because casting in that location, which is or at least used to be a central meeting place for PCs was considered too spammy.

I hold an opposing opinion that the wards are unnecessary and for me at least, they are of a negative character because:
1.The IC reason; They break my suspension of belief. I'm not sure why any large city's market place would have these kinds of wards. I can see them having non teleport wards as a self defense measure IC, but stopping a large city's own spellcasting defenders from defending the city in a large 200+ foot span area is undesirable to say the least. Especially if said city tend to face a lot of IM or story runner inspired trouble in specifically that location. It makes far more sense for example, for there to be no cast rooms near the Tormish temple in Tantras as there are now. They are mostly warriors and priests, stopping casters from assaulting the walls is smart.

2.The OOC reason; I don't see as this kind of warding is really wanted even OOC as it hasnt' been asked for or deseminated to places people meet. The lucky drunk, the gardens in Waterdeep the purple haze etc etc...
I hardly consider 3 lines of text spam. Now, this does come with an aspect I don't mind sharing. For thos who don't know, I'm a completely blind player. I use software that reads the text on my screen into an audio format and often, its necessary to have the speech read every single line outputted instead of skimming as those with sight can do. I personally find the assertion that casting in a room is spammy but I can recognize that having sight, and using it is somewhat out of my experience and has been for some number of years now. However, with that in mind, and knowing that I have made and continue to add onto a product for this MUD that cuts out genuine spam in and out of combat I don't see as the wards in the market, as they are now are a positive impact.

I even, have characters that barely even cast being banned from casting there of late and as far as I have seen the only impact the wards have had is to make the Market a less attractive place to be.

I recognise that there are plenty of other places to go be sociable IC. This isn't a suggestion based off of neeed but of preference as explained by the reasons above, and also of form. The wards affect a number of players, myself included whom weren't really consulted before they were put in. Akin to when Acid fog got broken soon after discussion began about its workings, there was no information given out about the whos and whys until the issue was pressed. So here I am, to press the issue with hopefully as much curtesy as was intended during writing.
I trained up double-edged bananas because the uber-plantain of doom I scored from the beehive quest was the best weapon in the game. Now it's being treated like a bug and they have gimped its damage! That's not fair! My character is ruined!

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Re: Market wards

Post by Althasizor » Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:55 am

The no-casting rooms around the Tormish temple in Tantras(Actually, the whole northern half of the city) is actually because it's a massive dead magic zone left over from the battle between Torm and Bane.

I'd agree though that the wards in the market aren't doing a very good job at what they're intended to do. It's cut down on the spam in the room a lot, but more because most of the time, people just congregate somewhere else entirely - most of the time in an adjacent room, or very near by - Except that the market is still recommended to new PCs as a place to go meet people.

Should people be spamming their buffing spells in the middle of having a conversation with someone? I personally think 'No', it's fairly rude, not to mention aggressive; the PVP rules explicitly outline this sort of behaviour as aggression warranting the start of combat. But it just means they're going to gather somewhere else instead.
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Re: Market wards

Post by Yemin » Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:07 am

A little off topic, I remember though that the dead magic zones in Tantras used to be far more pronounced, but then they pulled back a bit in a few rooms some time ago. I found it suspicious that the only place specifically in that portion of Tantras that was no magic was hammer wind leading up to the Tormish temple but that at the south end at the west end of that street leading up to the pub is now free to cast in.

But could be as you say since other places are still dead magic. Portions of the north though are now free to cast in.

i respect your opinion about social decorum. But like the amulets and so on, it doesn't seem like code fixed it when the amulets were changed to glow when used as a method of discouraging their use during face to face RP. Neither really should have they been changed but thats not something thats particularly disruptive to me.

The wards are disruptive and the question arises though, should you really be using code to alter behaviour that doesn't break any rule or give someone an unfair mechanical advantage. Especially when attempts in the past have resulted negatively or end up being ignored or subverted because at the end of the day, people will RP as they see fit to enjoy their roleplay.

As an aside, this also ties in to other trends in behaviour recently discussed in the Specialist post that Ailyn put up, it seemed there, that carefully crafting the environment was the only way to see a shift in behaviour as with knights over the years. Where coded support was used to support positive behaviour from paladins and knights over the years, rather than using code to restrict other types of ignoble behaviour.
I trained up double-edged bananas because the uber-plantain of doom I scored from the beehive quest was the best weapon in the game. Now it's being treated like a bug and they have gimped its damage! That's not fair! My character is ruined!

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Re: Market wards

Post by Lirith » Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:23 am

I believe that the wards were reinstated because of the frequent and sometimes near continuous buffing/spamming that was ongoing, despite requests to stop. I agree with Alth that it's rude and discourteous to the people there and personally I don't mind the bit of inconvenience at having to leave because I think people should leave anyway if they are going to cast more than one spell (e.g identify would be okay in MS, but not most others).

A bit of history for those who aren't aware: there were always wards in MS, they were removed a few years ago and when that happened the spell spam increased dramatically and only got worse over time, hence the reason why they put back.

I'm not totally against them being removed, but I would expect a repeat of the same result.

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Re: Market wards

Post by Yemin » Mon Sep 04, 2017 10:31 am

A reasonable bit of input.

Would you say that now that they've been implemented that other rooms have a similar or less amount of casting when people gather in them?

As Alt mentioned and I concur, since they have been put in, the room has simply been used less. I didn't really cover the aspect that new players are directed to go there to seek interraction as thats something that can be changed pretty easily. though for now, it is a valid concern.
I trained up double-edged bananas because the uber-plantain of doom I scored from the beehive quest was the best weapon in the game. Now it's being treated like a bug and they have gimped its damage! That's not fair! My character is ruined!

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Re: Market wards

Post by Lirith » Mon Sep 04, 2017 10:46 am

The wards were reinstated a long time ago (at a guess maybe 18 months), it certainly isn't anything recent. I don't buy it that the recent quietness of MS has anything to do with there being wards and is more that people found better things to do at times. MS is still frequently populated.

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Re: Market wards

Post by Yemin » Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:14 am

Could be,

Personally I took some time away from the game, and I think it was only perhaps 5 months after they came back that the game had its few months hiatus to get fixed up and moved to a different server. My times might be skewed a bunch as I wasn't keeping track.

I can't speak to anyone else, but my experience has been that the amount of casting I experience heavily depends on who I RP with. Ditto with myself, I have a character who is the apex of nausiating Obnoxiousness who will cast whenever he pleases. And another who was raised in a strict house hold and is very disciplined whom only casts when necessary or asked. I'm of the view that this kind of thing should be kept IC to be honest. There are mechanical reasons that encourage this kind of behaviour, but I think over time when players mature and are able to better visualize their environment, the mechanical reasons hold less sway on their behaviour and have responded with better result when I've given similar requests concerning casting to them with this in mind.
I trained up double-edged bananas because the uber-plantain of doom I scored from the beehive quest was the best weapon in the game. Now it's being treated like a bug and they have gimped its damage! That's not fair! My character is ruined!

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Re: Market wards

Post by Areia » Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:29 am

I know Areia's personally just stopped hanging around there, and I know at least a few others who have, because of them. Initially I tried to live with and work around it, but since some IC things continued with their normal frequency.. ya.

Also, I just have to take a second here to point something out because it's a thought that's amused me ever since the wards were put back up.

Compare
Areia intones as she bows, 'Pardon me briefly...'.
[At least one person most often nods here in reply.]
Areia walks west.
Areia walks in from the west.
The constable bows to Areia stiffly from the waist.
Areia nods as she passes to retake her previous spot.
to
Areia begins to chant.
You guess Areia is casting armor.
Areia utters the words, 'armor'.
A shimmering suit of armour coalesces around Areia.
...Even if you remove the bowing (an FM-only thing) and the returning smote (which I don't always do but she does always excuse herself), the number of lines generated by a PC leaving is no fewer than are made by just casting. And that's not even taking into account that most PCs don't see the "You guess blah is casting blahblah" line because spellcraft. So yeah, lol, never got how that cut down on spam. It definitely didn't for me, anyway. Before and after the wards, eating and drinking spam has always irritated me waaay more than casting ever did, but one never hears anyone gripe about the legitimately 13+ lines of get/eat/drink/put for some reason. XD

So, to answer the original question, I don't think the restriction has any positive effect and it might well have a negative effect for newbies being pointed there when fewer people (even if it's just a few casters less) are there. But I don't really have any strong feeling one way or the other as to whether it should be removed. because, honestly, I'm with Lirith in expecting OOC complaints regarding MS casting to reform if it were to be.
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Re: Market wards

Post by Althasizor » Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:38 am

I obviously can't say it's why the market seems emptier, sometimes. It -does- come and go. I know a few characters have mentioned it as why they prefer to gather in the nearby gardens rather than the market, but that's a handful of PCs at best. I have to ask, are there any other serious reasons to remove them? The only reason I can see it being an immediate problem is if you're afraid of being jumped in the market, but you could always retreat back a room as part of the pre-fight setup, and we don't really have a problem with that happening anyway.

Honestly though, no matter what kind of personality your character has, it's still rude and distracting to other players to sit and spam in their faces; I'm hesitant to call that a personality trait, but it's not a very fun one even so. And for the IC perspective..
I'm not sure why any large city's market place would have these kinds of wards.
Fireballs, I'd imagine. I'd honestly expect most cities to be armoured against magic like this, in their more public areas

Edit: Didn't see Areia's post! We should probably lynch drinkers/eaters in MS, too, I'd be down for that. And amulet spammers! Let's round up and crucify the amulet spammers.
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Re: Market wards

Post by Yemin » Mon Sep 04, 2017 12:54 pm

There isn't really any FR lore in source books or novels that supports them being there. There is more reason to allow magic but not teleport in a market setting. For merchants who sell magical gear and magical services. The reason wizards don't fireball a market is more to do, at least in waterdeep with the watch wizards than anything else. Or in Suzaille the instantly teleporting war wizards and closely kept registry. I could get into the cost but I don't think there's any real need. Suffice to say that there are more crowded locationsin a city than all churches an oligarchical government could fund wards for.

As far as I know anyway.

Its perfectly acceptable to call a character annoying, obnoxious, evil and various other unpleasantries. Not everyone here is goign to be polite or pleasant IC. I agree, to sit in someone's face and say, eat 30 melons is particularly unnecessary, though. not something I have strong feelings with either way. I'm free to go elsewhere respond with displeasure whether civil or violent or client side gag it. Killing all melons may also be an option.

I guess it comes down to what I consider spam and what others consider spam. As Areia mentioned, the solution seems to have resulted in more not less. And even just walking out produces the same number of lines outputted to someone without spellcraft.

I think if I was pressed on the question as to why, I'd most likely answer, I'd prefer to see them gone because it makes no sense to me personally, for them to be there. Implemented in the way they were and resulting in the results that we see. But hey ho, its a big big mud with thousands of rooms. I can continue to avoid them as I do now, but I did want to get a grasp of other's thoughts on it so keep them coming if you have more.
I trained up double-edged bananas because the uber-plantain of doom I scored from the beehive quest was the best weapon in the game. Now it's being treated like a bug and they have gimped its damage! That's not fair! My character is ruined!

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Re: Market wards

Post by Vaemar » Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:14 pm

Also, do note that the Market Square is no scry (absolutely unclear why) so if you can cast there it is not very fair, as you can scry other people but they cannot scry you.

If you want a gathering place without casting wards, honestly, there are other options, even if they may not be suitable for all races or faiths. But neither is the Market Square, so there is not really any difference, other than that elsewhere there are no wards.

edit: also, when I went there with a caster I recall that I could cast a spell or two, so it is not true that you cannot simply cast, you can cast sparingly.

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Re: Market wards

Post by Lirith » Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:49 pm

The wards in place in MS don't ban casting outright. They are there to make you think about whether or not you SHOULD be casting in that place as an OOC consideration to others. If you judge that it's IC and appropriate to do so, then a couple of tries and it usually will work and I think that's a good enough compromise to prevent it from happening all the time.

Let's be clear, we are not speaking of someone casting ONE spell as part of RP (again, identify is a good example, or making a character fly who comes into request it then leaves again). The problem comes when someone either casts several buffs in a row or casts the same spell over and over every few minutes for a prolonged period. This used to happen consistently. IC personality is not relevant in this, it's about consideration of others OOC and I think the vast consensus over time has been that it's annoying and interrupts the flow in the same way that too many osays do.

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Re: Market wards

Post by Areia » Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:29 pm

They definitely do. It starts out letting you cast after a couple tries, but after enough tries made you're completely cut off from casting at all, which given time will happen no less to the casual identifier than to the purposeful spammer. There's a way supposedly to start the count over and so revert back to trying a few times before casting normally, but it's expensive enough to exclude even my most veteran and richest PCs and after all, you'll eventually just be cut off completely again.
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Re: Market wards

Post by Lirith » Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:38 pm

Perhaps that is telling you something then. I've yet to see an outright ban on any of my casters of which there are multiple.

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Re: Market wards

Post by Areia » Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:52 pm

Vaemar wrote: Also, do note that the Market Square is no scry (absolutely unclear why) so if you can cast there it is not very fair, as you can scry other people but they cannot scry you.
Sorta off-topic (man, I need to get better about that), but why is that unfair exactly? There are probably hundreds of other rooms if not more from which one can scry and not be scried--I use them often and legally. :D

Lirith, that's fair enough. I guess I too just have a different idea from some about what constitutes spamming commands (I'm tots with you, Alth--death to the endless eaters! jk). But I think I even know one PC who got shut out completely for little more than identifying, as, like I say, whether you sit there and cast a hundred spells in a day, or cast a hundred over a year, eventually it'll add up to that golden number and *zap*. I'll have to ask her next we chat, though. Could be remembering wrongly.
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Re: Market wards

Post by Yemin » Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:03 pm

Lirith wrote:The wards in place in MS don't ban casting outright. They are there to make you think about whether or not you SHOULD be casting in that place as an OOC consideration to others. If you judge that it's IC and appropriate to do so, then a couple of tries and it usually will work and I think that's a good enough compromise to prevent it from happening all the time.

Let's be clear, we are not speaking of someone casting ONE spell as part of RP (again, identify is a good example, or making a character fly who comes into request it then leaves again). The problem comes when someone either casts several buffs in a row or casts the same spell over and over every few minutes for a prolonged period. This used to happen consistently. IC personality is not relevant in this, it's about consideration of others OOC and I think the vast consensus over time has been that it's annoying and interrupts the flow in the same way that too many osays do.
With respect to you Lirith, this is very much an opinion. I just today cast the same spell over and over with about a 10 minute gap between them because I was scribing / brewing whilst others were in the same room. It had nothing to do with how much or little respect I had for people in general. Thats just what the character was doing because he is a stickler for being efficient, even to the expense of others. Though ICly, it was outdoors in what is no smaller than a 50 foot area. There would have been no IC justification for complaint. In the same turn, whenever buffs fail in an area a paranoid character deems as dangerous, he or she will refresh them. Not doing so breaks character.

In contrast as I've said above, I have another character whom is completely the opposite. she rarely brews infront of people and never refreshes defenses when she's in a city because she believe sin the rule of law. Ironically I'll add, she is also banned from casting in the market even with this behaviour. And all she's ever done is heal people there.

If you're not insinuating that people who play the game like this are generally disrespectful to people OOCly then my apologies and feel free to ignore me. However, as I read it the point you were making felt accusatory at best. There are many reasons why characters behave in a certain way. But the cart blanche assumption that they're doing it to be disrespectful or that they are otherwise negatively inclined OOCly is a wildy unnecessary generalisation.
I trained up double-edged bananas because the uber-plantain of doom I scored from the beehive quest was the best weapon in the game. Now it's being treated like a bug and they have gimped its damage! That's not fair! My character is ruined!

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Re: Market wards

Post by Vaemar » Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:25 pm

Areia wrote:Sorta off-topic (man, I need to get better about that), but why is that unfair exactly? There are probably hundreds of other rooms if not more from which one can scry and not be scried--I use them often and legally. :D
It is unfair because it is the main hub for the game, not for anything else. You can stay there and meet people, while being immune to scry. Kinda too good of a deal in my book. In the other rooms you have to go specifically and you rarely can afford a social life or meet random people there. The difference is undeniable.

However it seems it is unclear if the Market Square is no scry, I frankly hope it is not.

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Re: Market wards

Post by Gwain » Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:35 pm

Before you had the limited or no casting you had times where characters would renew spells that they did not need to have on themselves in the market square as opposed to dipping out and back in. In compromise I'd welcome scrying and idenifying spells back into the square as well as language comprehension, food creation and tongues and witch light as well as light healing spells. Because those sort of seem like more social spells than the others. Also know alignment.

I would not be against removing the travel wards
That only exist in Wd so that we don't bounce into strange locations constantly.
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Re: Market wards

Post by Yemin » Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:31 pm

Gwain wrote:Before you had the limited or no casting you had times where characters would renew spells that they did not need to have on themselves
*Need to have* is the key phrase there. At the end of the day, its my belief that it isn't up to anyone but the player to decide what their characters needs to do or not do and am against using code to penalise behaviour that isn't code abuse or harassment. Especially when the coded solution results in a barely plausible IC environment.

Though, I guess the sticking point of the argument is the last two points there. Which have had multple points of view put above.

The wards so far as I have seen them have cut out lines of spellcasting and to some degree at least, replaced them with other forms of *spam*. When I was in there the other day with about 4 different conversations going at once. I technically considered all the other conversations my PC wasn't involved in just spam as well. and those conversations made up roughly 70% of what was passing on my screen. I dont' really see any difference between this and casting a spell. Its not something my PC is involved or can interact in, but its not something I feel like asking others to move to a private room to go continue their convo. It would make no sense since the market is a huge place and is simply the nature of the area I was standing in.

A market is where hundreds of people go to gather. Its loud, busy and crowded at all hours in a city like Waterdeep. I'd have more understanding for the argument that its rude if this behaviour was happening in a private booth or some other reasonably sized IC room like a meeting room. But I understand that some people play with a far softer barrier between IC and OOC.

I would be happy to see any spells return to the market at all though. Should someone give way enough to allow the social ones Gwain suggested above through.
I trained up double-edged bananas because the uber-plantain of doom I scored from the beehive quest was the best weapon in the game. Now it's being treated like a bug and they have gimped its damage! That's not fair! My character is ruined!

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Re: Market wards

Post by Althasizor » Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:56 pm

Yemin wrote:At the end of the day, its my belief that it isn't up to anyone but the player to decide what their characters needs to do
Well, them and the guy who set up the wards in the market.
What are you talking about? What, that guy?
That was like that when I got here.

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