Market wards

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Grenwyn
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Re: Market wards

Post by Grenwyn » Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:51 pm

Zethanon wrote:Con: Good luck healing while you bleed out cause heal doesn't work.
The one time this happened to me in the market, "aid" came to the rescue.

I still blame Kaden (not really).
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Re: Market wards

Post by Areia » Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:50 pm

Woohoo! I've been hoping to hear from more. :D Although I'm still disappointed not to see anyone answer my point about alternative behavior (i.e., walking out of the room and back when you're done doing your wizardly business) making no less spam for others.
Yemin wrote: Also, I cast no less now than I ever have, feel free to suggest they put up wards wherever in public my casters Might be.
Taking the replies in whole thus far, this pretty much sums up my conclusion on it. Not to be smartass-y or anything. But honestly, to echo Lorelie's sentament, IC actions do equal IC consequences. the one (yes, it's one) PC that I have who often partakes of magic has very, very, very good IC reason to do so based on lots of past experience. I guess if the community supports an environment where past IC experience doesn't influence a PC's mindset, well, alrighty then. It just makes zero sense to me why a wizard who's been actively hunted by more persons/groups than I can recall almost nonstop for the past X years of her life wouldn't get a little paranoid, and thus keep magic to protect her (and her friends) active as best she can. I see it no differently from all the fighters, clerics, and paladins who keep their full plate armors on 24/7, which funny enough, my fighters don't do because they also have no reason to be so paranoid as that. My other wizard doesn't keep her magic active, in part because she's a Mystran, and in other part because she's never had to deal with all the stuff Areia has.

For the record, I don't see the wards as IC consequences at all. It's IC punishment for what those bothered by casting have consistently called OOC rudeness. I also would never support punishing the entire community for what is supposedly only two PCs' actions...

SO ultimately, to those who say Areia's or anyone else's IC actions are rude OOC, I guess I'd reply that I find it genuinely rude to be belittling legitimate RP, that does no more OOC harm than any of the other myriad activities found in PC-heavy rooms, and just waving hands at whatever IC background there might be to the behavior. So Areia'll just keep it up elsewhere, whether or not people want to hang around her there, because it's perfectly reasonable for her to be as worrying a person as she is, even to the detriment of her social life.

So whether one can call that problem fixed seems, to me at least, questionable.

(Sorry for fifty thousand edits. My brain's on low speed today.)
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Re: Market wards

Post by Gwain » Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:49 am

Maybe change the wards to allow cure light spells for healing characters about to die otherwise? That way we can at least save them in the ms.

Personally, I'll really miss Areia in the market, but if that's how you feel then there is nothing I can do about it.
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Re: Market wards

Post by Alitar » Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:04 am

As I see it, the wards allow you an IC reason to excuse yourself to recast your buffs rather than flooding the market with them. No one is belittling anyone's rp reasoning for wanted to be buffed, we're just enjoying market where the spam, and stress, of spell-slinging is less hectic.
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Re: Market wards

Post by Grenwyn » Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:30 am

Areia wrote:Woohoo! I've been hoping to hear from more. :D Although I'm still disappointed not to see anyone answer my point about alternative behavior (i.e., walking out of the room and back when you're done doing your wizardly business) making no less spam for others.
If you're only casting one spell, that's true. Any more and it's cheaper (in screen real estate) to walk outside.
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Re: Market wards

Post by Areia » Fri Sep 15, 2017 5:16 am

Grenwyn wrote:If you're only casting one spell, that's true. Any more and it's cheaper (in screen real estate) to walk outside.
That's kinda what I mean. Most everyone is only casting one thing now and again, but they have to deal with the restrictions too. To be honest, I don't think I often saw more than three spells going off at a time back when you could, and that was even a lot. So I'm still just not sure where the complaint comes from. The exception of course being when baddies were planted right there, which naturally meant you'd see more.
Gwain wrote:Maybe change the wards to allow cure light spells for healing characters about to die otherwise? That way we can at least save them in the ms.
I'd be all for that, too, and for the social-type spells you mentioned earlier. Really, anything that gives more freedom to the folks who never did anything to deserve restriction in the first place is good in my view.
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Re: Market wards

Post by Yemin » Fri Sep 15, 2017 11:23 am

A facet of the reason I also started this thread is partly that the MKC due to game culture has become a central meeting place. Part of the environment there is not really condusive to what the room is being used for.A market is loud, wide, open and serves as a good place to meet up to plan or then go elsewhere if you need somewhere central to meet. It has buyers and vendors moving all over the place. At most hours of the day, it is also crowded and likely has a pick pocket or two. It isn't normally where people would usually meet to talk for long stretches of time.

For anyone who's spent any length of time with Mers in different settings, you will note that he doesn't cast much to at all if say he's in a meeting, back in his days when he was in a faith.

I personally don't take it well when people break that line between IC and OOC. As you can see, it just causes confusion and toxicity. I want to address it here since it has come up and I feel no need to pretend I wasn't one of the ones asked to stop, both IC and OOC. Continuing to do so has a level of conceitedness I'm not comfortable with.

At first I was asked to stop IC, which as I've highlighted make sno sense for the setting. I responded in an IC manner that my character naturally would. Had it been any other character, Lustria, Soelle etc. They probably would not even been asked, because its not in their nature or personality to go out in public expecting trouble. This is mostly why I said it is down to roleplay.

I was then asked to stop OOC and the situation became toxic. Which, naturally it always does. I have literally never had the IC / OOC barrier break in any positive way in the past. If something is OOC The only way to solv it constructively is to begin and end it in that sphere. Looking back at the log of the affair, I can say that there was wrong done from both ends when things went there. Both from mine end and the person asking me to alter my IC behaviour.

With all that said, there is a very similar parallel between the line of conversation between this thread, and that conversation from a year ago. And that is when the issue came up. I did then as I have in this thread offered a solution that would both make sense and solve our issues. Back then it was offereing to help the person figure out gag client commands, and now it is having the market simply mute casting. And this time at least in part I have been met with a very similar response, if not in wording but in spirit.

Asker from a year ago in a PMto myself:

Code: Select all

My short answer: No. If you can't be considerate that is your own issue. I will not use triggers considering I have never had to in the several years I have played, and shouldn't have to because someone feels the need to prove a point? I will send in a complaint next time I see you casting in the market, and ask that anyone else that I have heard complain about your actions, do the same.
Its Ironic that Lorelie mentioned that the answer given to a seemingly reasonable request was screw you, because personally, this is all I see to what I think is a reasonable request to fix both problems. The solution I offered back then to that individual is probably easier than what i'm asking for now code wise. And coming from the perspective of someone who's written a half done soundpack just so I can play a game in my spare time with a similar experience to everyone else. The response is simply unbelievable.

Had I wished to prove some kind of grand point. All my characters would probably start behaving the same in *spamming* spellcasting. But as I log on here to roleplay each character to their own personality and have fun while doing it, I don't.

With that said, i cut everyone slack unless its clear they don't want me to. I think well of the majority of people who have had a contrary want to my wants in this thread so far. But from where i'm standing, the only reason people insist on using the market in a weird way which contributes to this issue is that some of you have been here a really long time and had things the way there are a really long time and so any request to shift may come off as obsurd.

As the asker said, they've been here for years and never had to use triggers. To clarify for the less tech savy, client side triggers dont' send commands to the MUD so no rules are broken. Personally, I don't find not having to have done something for years as a legitimate reason for anything. Suddenly the great terrible something will come down and tare down your world. New things come up that you might not have noticed before. Its not a big deal to change with them.

Would it, with all this considered be unreasonable to begin perhaps meeting up somewhere with four walls and a door? Even if said door is uncoded. Waterdeep is full of such unused places. A bunch of them really close by if your character or you are bothered by the legitimate noise that occurs in a market.

If anything, there should be a lot more casting goign on in the market. People can go there to buy spells, or the spells of a group ready to head out.

In summary, some people equate casting in the market as rude because it OOCly annoys them. I find the people who ask Mers to stop casting when outside faintly confusing OOCly, perhaps annoying when it crossed the IC/OOC barrier, but I don't equate my annoyance to people purposefully being rude. The two things are seperate affairs entirely. Something outlighted by OOCly lumping of all people Areia in the rude section. From what I'v seen the guy / girl is nice to the point of getting taken advantage of whenever OOC has popped up in the past. The assertion of rudeness is unfounded. If perhaps some begin acknowledging the IC environment they're playing in and finally go visit Filiar as the town crier keeps yelling. There would be no coded response deemed necessary at all. Either muting, gagging or the current MKC wards.

Occasionally even I forget and start meditating right infront of an enemy just because he is not coded aggressive, but its not something that I or anyone should be doing in spiting the environment in way for convenience really.

As a side note, i do Concur with Areia's mention. The only spells I ever refreshed regularly were the defensive ones, which take perhaps 40 minutes to an hour rl to drop? It was confusing to me at the time when I was seemingly singled out when I saw some people walk in with mirror image active. And well, you think spell spam is annoying..., oh boy. Look over there at those 10 ****s. And to further clarify, I find this annoying but it also does not make me think they're being rude. The person who did this was an evil, walking into an area that was predominantly populated by Goods and neuts. He/She could have just relied on the OOC PVP policy to give fair warning but that would be pretty close to Metagamming in my book so I saluted her/his props to understandable behaviour.
I trained up double-edged bananas because the uber-plantain of doom I scored from the beehive quest was the best weapon in the game. Now it's being treated like a bug and they have gimped its damage! That's not fair! My character is ruined!

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Re: Market wards

Post by Grenwyn » Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:39 pm

Yemin wrote:A facet of the reason I also started this thread is partly that the MKC due to game culture has become a central meeting place. Part of the environment there is not really condusive to what the room is being used for... It isn't normally where people would usually meet to talk for long stretches of time.
Not for important conversations, perhaps, but a market is a great place to meet people. Usually any important conversations that start here end up moving somewhere quieter.
Yemin wrote:I did then as I have in this thread offered a solution that would both make sense and solve our issues. Back then it was offereing to help the person figure out gag client commands, and now it is having the market simply mute casting.
I don't really like the idea of gagging/muting spellcasting for a couple of reasons:
  • If someone is casting a spell, I'd like to know about it.
  • Muting spellcasting in game usually requires not one, but two metamagic feats: silent spell and still spell. Attaching that to a room (one where a lot of roleplaying happens!) makes this feat investment quite a bit less attractive.
  • From a game design perspective, "rooms where you can't cast" are an established part of the game. Some are caused by wild magic areas, some are deliberate wards; but this mechanic is one that crops up often enough that it doesn't seem far-fetched or forced. A room where casting is muted would, to me at least.
  • In terms of "realism," it doesn't really "make sense" to hear conversations but be clueless to any spellcasting that's going on.
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Re: Market wards

Post by Althasizor » Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:01 pm

I'd just like to point out how ridiculous the continued accusation that people who disagree just "aren't being IC enough" is. I personally don't think it's particularly un-IC to ignore a town crier's regularly delivered messages, and it doesn't do anything constructive when 80% of your posts are full of snide shots like that. I'm also not sure why you're trying to turn this into an IC vs. OOC debate, or why you keep ignoring that the wards exist ICly and aren't just some OOC bandaid, or insisting that they can't possibly be IC because it's not like there's a powerful archwizard sitting on Waterdeep's council of Lords or anything(Oh.)

So, to be clear: If people don't like spell spam, -they- should go somewhere else, rather than one person just walk a room away to spell up?
What are you talking about? What, that guy?
That was like that when I got here.

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Re: Market wards

Post by Yemin » Fri Sep 15, 2017 3:50 pm

Althasizor wrote:I'd just like to point out how ridiculous the continued accusation that people who disagree just "aren't being IC enough" is. I personally don't think it's particularly un-IC to ignore a town crier's regularly delivered messages, and it doesn't do anything constructive when 80% of your posts are full of snide shots like that. I'm also not sure why you're trying to turn this into an IC vs. OOC debate, or why you keep ignoring that the wards exist ICly and aren't just some OOC bandaid, or insisting that they can't possibly be IC because it's not like there's a powerful archwizard sitting on Waterdeep's council of Lords or anything(Oh.)

So, to be clear: If people don't like spell spam, -they- should go somewhere else, rather than one person just walk a room away to spell up?
Pretty much yes, Going elsewhere to sit around a table for a drink and chat is normally what people would do if they wanted to talk somewhere without having to raise their voice. If an area is too loud to meditate in then its probaby too loud to talk comfortably in as well since again you can meditate everywhere else in the game pretty much and its left to each individual to judge when and where their character could pheasably meditate, judging by how you're allowed to talk whilst doing it. Its left to you to judge how hard it is to do and your chars ability to do it with distractions about. I don't really know what you mean by snipe shots. My posts are what they are. They aren't accusing anyone of anything particularly violently offensive, just pointing out that its a situation similar to meditating infront of a guard after you've killed his budies a room away. Something I myself have done, if there are any shots being made, they're at myself.

Also, the market is loud Gren, you can hear the people talking because you're huddling close in a group. It can be assume that when people are casting, they step away to do that within the same OOC *room* but just a few steps to make space for hand gestures. Or that they're doing it right there but your character naturally tunes it out as they do the stuff going on around them. The room is large. The word room is innately deceptive. The same argument against being able to hear people and not hear casting can be made for why you can even hear anyone at all if they're not using the yell command.

This isn't a he said she said whom is wrong situation where because more people have to move 3 or so rooms away to the singing sword that they are innately at fault for some great offense. Makes more sense than one person walking 200 feet away to cast one spell then coming back to rejoin a busy market place group standing around.

But this is all the what if, having casting muted would solve both our issues.

The only reason to stay would be the pretty fountain.

As for why this is more an OOC measure than IC has already been explained. If it were IC there would be more consistency within the setting for the measure. Also, you can't really do anything with silent an still spell that you would want to do in the market without an OOC pvp warning. I have both feats on a char and can't say I'd be at all upset at having a room that muted spellcasting.

Either that, or a MUD based version of a gag so people don't have to do it themselves? If need be, making an alias for a gag is as much effort as walking in and out if you don't want to employ one client side.

Just brainstorming, perhaps it could be an improvement to the current config brief so you don't have to deal with bla bla chants in combat either but would still see the end results, that'd be pretty useful for me as wel. There are, lots of OOC options to deal with this OOC problem that doesn't really impact the IC environment

Lastly, I'd kindly ask you to take a step back and a breath Alt, I may be wrong but it seems your getting more heated about this than is really warranted. This has all just been an opinion. My opinion, if people read it and consider it with some merit, fantastic. if not then well at least its out here for others to read later and have a think about.
I trained up double-edged bananas because the uber-plantain of doom I scored from the beehive quest was the best weapon in the game. Now it's being treated like a bug and they have gimped its damage! That's not fair! My character is ruined!

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Re: Market wards

Post by Lorelie » Fri Sep 15, 2017 4:09 pm

To summarize:

1. There was an IC issue, people attempted to solve the IC issue but it was not resolved.
2. Another party took it OOC and things turned toxic.
3. This other party took it further by filing an IC request to address the problem.
4. The request was taken IC and an IC solution was implemented.

If you want it changed, take it IC. It really is that easy. It has been changed in the past so there is no reason to believe that it will not be changed again.

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Re: Market wards

Post by Yemin » Fri Sep 15, 2017 4:48 pm

I see, I'll give it a try.

Thanks.
I trained up double-edged bananas because the uber-plantain of doom I scored from the beehive quest was the best weapon in the game. Now it's being treated like a bug and they have gimped its damage! That's not fair! My character is ruined!

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