What do you think should be considered "proper" roleplay before/when using the new "teach" command.
What conditions and precise or vague guidelines should be given to the players (in the help files for example) about "teach".
Please share your opinions and experiences.
New teaching system: policies
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Dalvyn
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Things to perhaps consider:
- How much roleplay (time-wise ?) should you perform before using "teach"?
- Should you spam "teach <student> <skill>" till you cannot teach anymore, or should you roleplay each attempt ?
- If you shouldn't spam it, what's a reasonable amount of time to wait before using "teach" again with the same skill on the same target?
- What should teachers ask of their students for lessons?
- ...
- How much roleplay (time-wise ?) should you perform before using "teach"?
- Should you spam "teach <student> <skill>" till you cannot teach anymore, or should you roleplay each attempt ?
- If you shouldn't spam it, what's a reasonable amount of time to wait before using "teach" again with the same skill on the same target?
- What should teachers ask of their students for lessons?
- ...
Forewarning - Personal Opinion to follow:
In the past I have taught a few spells and skills to others. I personally feel that apprentices should learn through IC roleplay what each spell/skill does. A day of verbal lessons explaining how you preform a spell/skill with perhaps a paper on harder spells (Example a paper on the dangers of teleport before one would teach them teleport.. not a three page thing but even 1-2 paragraphs). Followed by a day of watching the spell/skill followed by a few days (or weeks) or practice where each practice you can get another "teach" level. For fighter's it's a bit easier to do this in RP spar teaching how to parry, how to dodge, how to follow through an attack etc.. For mages it is a bit more difficult because it becomes to the point on how to practice and the IC responsabilities or the two involved. Face it.. NO mage gets a spell "right" the first time trying it. It just doesn't happen. But that second or third time they get it right and with practice just perfect it.
I have always loved the thought of apprentices and LOVE that the teach system now supports it. I have always cringed from people learning spells from scrolls with little to no roleplay and I also know in the past people has passed by coming to me for a spell because I used to make them work for it. I would love to see people work for their spells or skills and would love to see the actual RP to it all.
In the past I have taught a few spells and skills to others. I personally feel that apprentices should learn through IC roleplay what each spell/skill does. A day of verbal lessons explaining how you preform a spell/skill with perhaps a paper on harder spells (Example a paper on the dangers of teleport before one would teach them teleport.. not a three page thing but even 1-2 paragraphs). Followed by a day of watching the spell/skill followed by a few days (or weeks) or practice where each practice you can get another "teach" level. For fighter's it's a bit easier to do this in RP spar teaching how to parry, how to dodge, how to follow through an attack etc.. For mages it is a bit more difficult because it becomes to the point on how to practice and the IC responsabilities or the two involved. Face it.. NO mage gets a spell "right" the first time trying it. It just doesn't happen. But that second or third time they get it right and with practice just perfect it.
I have always loved the thought of apprentices and LOVE that the teach system now supports it. I have always cringed from people learning spells from scrolls with little to no roleplay and I also know in the past people has passed by coming to me for a spell because I used to make them work for it. I would love to see people work for their spells or skills and would love to see the actual RP to it all.
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Jaenoic
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I've only ever taught weapon skills in the past, but this is the way I did it and thought it worked well.
Explain the basics of holding the weapon and demonstrate, have the student try. Teach to inept.
Explain the basic strikes and blocks, demonstrate and have the student try. Teach again.
Explain some of the concepts behind fighting with that weapon, ie balance, and using it to your advantage. Have a small sparring session so the student can try applying the concept. Repeat as necessary until the student can apply the concept. Teach again.
And go on like that until I believe the student has learned enough, or until I can no longer teach. Usually the latter happens first, as I think at the time you could only teach to novice or something like that.
Total RPing time: Maybe around 45 min- 1hour.
What I asked of my student was only that they try their best to learn, and that they not use what they learn against what my character's beliefs are, of course.
I think that teaching at intervals is more appropriate than lump-sum teaching. With things more complicated than weapons, like spells, I think that teach should be spread out perhaps over a couple of days, to roleplay research and the like.
Explain the basics of holding the weapon and demonstrate, have the student try. Teach to inept.
Explain the basic strikes and blocks, demonstrate and have the student try. Teach again.
Explain some of the concepts behind fighting with that weapon, ie balance, and using it to your advantage. Have a small sparring session so the student can try applying the concept. Repeat as necessary until the student can apply the concept. Teach again.
And go on like that until I believe the student has learned enough, or until I can no longer teach. Usually the latter happens first, as I think at the time you could only teach to novice or something like that.
Total RPing time: Maybe around 45 min- 1hour.
What I asked of my student was only that they try their best to learn, and that they not use what they learn against what my character's beliefs are, of course.
I think that teaching at intervals is more appropriate than lump-sum teaching. With things more complicated than weapons, like spells, I think that teach should be spread out perhaps over a couple of days, to roleplay research and the like.
As the player of a character that has been both the taught and the teacher, I've come up with a few rules I place on myself as far as teaching goes.
First, I keep my lessons about a half an hour (this varies with what is being taught. I would spend probably only 5-10 minutes on something like dig, but closer to an hour on something like polymorph).
Second, I make it two way. I don't just tell the student everything, I make them think and answer questions.
Third, I generally (not always) make the student demonstrate the taught skill after I teach it to them.
And finally, I make an effort to explain in an IC manner how not to abuse what has just been taught in an OOC way (e.i. disintegrate is a bad idea in spars...)
Obviously, these are self imposed rules and suggestions for others. As far as what I would recommend for policy:
1) Minimum of 10 minutes LEGITIMATE RP.
2) Teaching more than once should require additional lessons at least 5 minutes in length and detail what is being taught that would make them better.
3) Lessons should consist of common sense (hold sword by handle, pointy end goes in opponent) and/or creative and well thought out "theories" as to how something should work (look through the yuan-ti eye at the mirror when casting magic mirror).
4) Explain how not to abuse something if it can easily be abused. (steal pack = abyss)
First, I keep my lessons about a half an hour (this varies with what is being taught. I would spend probably only 5-10 minutes on something like dig, but closer to an hour on something like polymorph).
Second, I make it two way. I don't just tell the student everything, I make them think and answer questions.
Third, I generally (not always) make the student demonstrate the taught skill after I teach it to them.
And finally, I make an effort to explain in an IC manner how not to abuse what has just been taught in an OOC way (e.i. disintegrate is a bad idea in spars...)
Obviously, these are self imposed rules and suggestions for others. As far as what I would recommend for policy:
1) Minimum of 10 minutes LEGITIMATE RP.
2) Teaching more than once should require additional lessons at least 5 minutes in length and detail what is being taught that would make them better.
3) Lessons should consist of common sense (hold sword by handle, pointy end goes in opponent) and/or creative and well thought out "theories" as to how something should work (look through the yuan-ti eye at the mirror when casting magic mirror).
4) Explain how not to abuse something if it can easily be abused. (steal pack = abyss)
Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you walk into an open sewer and die. ~Mel Brooks
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Dalvyn
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Check the other thread describing the system.
Without any feat, you can teach any skill (including spells, weapon skills, languages, ...) that your guild gets at level 20 or before then.
Then you can buy the Teacher feat (twice) to improve how well you can teach. With Teacher, you can train your students to higher level, and you can teach skills before you are expert.
And/or you can buy the Scholar feat (twice) to become able to teach higher-level skills/spells/whatever. With one Scholar feat, you can teach skills that your guild get at level 30 or earlier, as well as tardes. With 2 ranks in the Scholar feat, you can teach anything you know.
Without any feat, you can teach any skill (including spells, weapon skills, languages, ...) that your guild gets at level 20 or before then.
Then you can buy the Teacher feat (twice) to improve how well you can teach. With Teacher, you can train your students to higher level, and you can teach skills before you are expert.
And/or you can buy the Scholar feat (twice) to become able to teach higher-level skills/spells/whatever. With one Scholar feat, you can teach skills that your guild get at level 30 or earlier, as well as tardes. With 2 ranks in the Scholar feat, you can teach anything you know.
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Dalvyn
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One day after the announcement that the new teach system is in (a system which has been more than 8 months in coming), and I already have to warn up people about a possible abuse of it that was witnessed recently. Am I very disappointed about it, and is saying so an understatement ? Quite a bit, yes.
The "teach test" option was added so you could check whether you can actually teach more to your student BEFORE starting to roleplay the lesson, to avoid situations where you would spend 10 minutes rolepaying a lesson that could actually not happen.
It is NOT to be used as a way to investigate who you might be able to teach in a crowd of people by systematically checking everybody, as in:
As clearly stated in this thread and the other thread describing the teach system, this command was introduced to back up with code roleplays between masters and students. To back up with code ... ROLEPLAYS ... between masters and students. It was not introduced as a way for people to seek out quick, dirty, and easy preys that they could assault with "teach" in order to gain some skill increases.
The teach command has been so long in coming because it is fragile, in the sense that it rests on the assumption that there is some underlying roleplay, and that assumption cannot be code-checked. Rest assured that if it is not used properly, then the command will just be removed, and 8 months' worth of discussion and work would be lost. I, for one, would have a very hard time making rational decisions should that happen, which means that I would certainly vote for the infringing players to be just slain, eaten, banned, and cursed by Beshaba should that happen.
To answer to this possible abuse of "teach", we are going to have to code more restrictions on it. The restriction we currently consider is to make it so that "teach (test)" only works if the teacher and the student are grouped. That still does not completely rule out the option of abusing the command, but it makes it impossible to fish out randomly for students.
The "teach test" option was added so you could check whether you can actually teach more to your student BEFORE starting to roleplay the lesson, to avoid situations where you would spend 10 minutes rolepaying a lesson that could actually not happen.
It is NOT to be used as a way to investigate who you might be able to teach in a crowd of people by systematically checking everybody, as in:
Code: Select all
teach test PC1 magic missile
teach test PC1 fly
teach test PC1 armor
teach test PC2 magic missile
teach test PC2 fly
teach test PC2 armor
teach test PC3 magic missile
teach test PC3 fly
teach test PC3 armor
... and so on ...The teach command has been so long in coming because it is fragile, in the sense that it rests on the assumption that there is some underlying roleplay, and that assumption cannot be code-checked. Rest assured that if it is not used properly, then the command will just be removed, and 8 months' worth of discussion and work would be lost. I, for one, would have a very hard time making rational decisions should that happen, which means that I would certainly vote for the infringing players to be just slain, eaten, banned, and cursed by Beshaba should that happen.
To answer to this possible abuse of "teach", we are going to have to code more restrictions on it. The restriction we currently consider is to make it so that "teach (test)" only works if the teacher and the student are grouped. That still does not completely rule out the option of abusing the command, but it makes it impossible to fish out randomly for students.
Stumbled across the new helpfiles the other day
What is the minimum intelligence needed to teach someone something?
Either I am blind and missed it, or it hasn't been mentioned in the helpfiles for "teacher feat" or the "teach" command.
I ask because my priest has taken the teach feat once, and is planning on teaching a bit of Elven (which he is adept at, so having the teacher feat should enable him to teach it, yes? Unless I misunderstood that as well, hehe). I did a "test teach" and was told that my intelligence was too low to teach.
Seeing as I'm planning on developing my priest's intelligence so he is able to get the linguist feat at some point (it's going to be a long, hard road, isn't it?
) I know I'll be able to teach eventually... But some kind of guideline would be nice to know 
What is the minimum intelligence needed to teach someone something?
Either I am blind and missed it, or it hasn't been mentioned in the helpfiles for "teacher feat" or the "teach" command.
I ask because my priest has taken the teach feat once, and is planning on teaching a bit of Elven (which he is adept at, so having the teacher feat should enable him to teach it, yes? Unless I misunderstood that as well, hehe). I did a "test teach" and was told that my intelligence was too low to teach.
Seeing as I'm planning on developing my priest's intelligence so he is able to get the linguist feat at some point (it's going to be a long, hard road, isn't it?
) I know I'll be able to teach eventually... But some kind of guideline would be nice to know -
Raona
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What specifics I had access to I did put into the helpfiles - the helpfile on the scholar feat is quite explicit. However, it would seem even a normal intelligence (perhaps approaching smart) should suffice to teach, given that "smart" is sufficient for the first rank of scholar. I'm extrapolating wildly, though - hopefully someone who knows for sure will say more. If they do, a request - let me know if you would or would not like to see it appear in the helpfiles!
My intelligence was "average," and I've just spent a stat point on it, taking it up to "smart." Hopefully this is enough to let me teach a bit, but I haven't had a chance to try it out
EDIT - I have now tested it! So it looks like an intelligence level of "smart" is needed before any teaching can take place.
(And, yes, the Scholar helpfile is perfectly explicit about required stats, which is great )
PS - I was supposed to mention this in my previous comment, but it got somehow cut out before posting: The new teach helpfile is great, really clearly spells out expected RP-ing. Hopefully this will have a positive knock-on effect in-game So far I've only ever had one PC character teach me a skill, and we spent at least 30 RL minutes on it, just for one use of the "teach" command, which was great fun! It adds so much more to the experience ^_^b
EDIT - I have now tested it! So it looks like an intelligence level of "smart" is needed before any teaching can take place.
(And, yes, the Scholar helpfile is perfectly explicit about required stats, which is great
)PS - I was supposed to mention this in my previous comment, but it got somehow cut out before posting: The new teach helpfile is great, really clearly spells out expected RP-ing. Hopefully this will have a positive knock-on effect in-game
So far I've only ever had one PC character teach me a skill, and we spent at least 30 RL minutes on it, just for one use of the "teach" command, which was great fun! It adds so much more to the experience ^_^b
Last edited by Peverell on Sat Mar 15, 2008 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: New teaching system: policies
I have a question regarding the policies on the Teacher and Scholar feats.
There are some races that have pretty decent penalties on their race, (I think Orcs have it the worst), that mean meeting the stat requirements for these feats.
Just to go over them again, to have Scholar 2, you need to have
1: Four feats to use.
2: "Brilliant" intelligence
3: "Wise" wisdom
4: "Charismatic" charisma
Some races, Orcs and Dwarves in particular, are at a significant disadvantage to meet these requirements.
Orcs are -2 int and -2 Cha.
Dwarves are -2 Cha.
This means that both of these races have to sacrifice a decent amount of stat points (a huge amount, for Orcs) to even be eligible and a feat (for Dwarves only, as most require it to compensate for being small sized) before they can even begin looking a these feats.
Is there an application process involved for characters such as these to meet the requirements without having precisely the stats needed?
There are some races that have pretty decent penalties on their race, (I think Orcs have it the worst), that mean meeting the stat requirements for these feats.
Just to go over them again, to have Scholar 2, you need to have
1: Four feats to use.
2: "Brilliant" intelligence
3: "Wise" wisdom
4: "Charismatic" charisma
Some races, Orcs and Dwarves in particular, are at a significant disadvantage to meet these requirements.
Orcs are -2 int and -2 Cha.
Dwarves are -2 Cha.
This means that both of these races have to sacrifice a decent amount of stat points (a huge amount, for Orcs) to even be eligible and a feat (for Dwarves only, as most require it to compensate for being small sized) before they can even begin looking a these feats.
Is there an application process involved for characters such as these to meet the requirements without having precisely the stats needed?
This land shall come to the God who knows the answer to War. -Ninety-Nine Nights
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Caelnai
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Re: New teaching system: policies
heh. I have a PC that wants to follow this path and I was working at it from creation, spending a pile of points just to get the poor, ugly girl to "Average" charisma.Selveem wrote:Is there an application process involved for characters such as these to meet the requirements without having precisely the stats needed?
Never occurred to me to apply for it...I'm just hording every point I can get in glory to pay for her future.
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Dalvyn
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Re: New teaching system: policies
Actually, the "names" associated to the stats might have been changed at some point. The requirements are not that high.
Requirements to teach :
Int >= 12 & Wis >= 12 & Cha >= 12
For Teacher-1 : Cha >= 14
For Teacher-2 : Cha >= 15
For Scholar-1 : Int >= 14 & Wis >= 13
For Scholar-2 : Int >= 15 & Wis >= 14
It uses the base stats, not the stats modified by magical objects.
(I'll admit that the Cha requirements might be a bit high ... perhaps decreasing them all by 1 point would be better. And yes, I agree that 4 feat points is a lot for that, but at least you can still buy additional feat points with glory.)
Requirements to teach :
Int >= 12 & Wis >= 12 & Cha >= 12
For Teacher-1 : Cha >= 14
For Teacher-2 : Cha >= 15
For Scholar-1 : Int >= 14 & Wis >= 13
For Scholar-2 : Int >= 15 & Wis >= 14
It uses the base stats, not the stats modified by magical objects.
(I'll admit that the Cha requirements might be a bit high ... perhaps decreasing them all by 1 point would be better. And yes, I agree that 4 feat points is a lot for that, but at least you can still buy additional feat points with glory.)