Wizard Specialists - Barred Schools

[Layna]

I'd just echo Kregor's earlier comment here about illusionists:

Anyway, this is a problem, if three oppositions are still the de facto on FKMud (I cannot recall, and we need to check! *nudges*). Because the spell lists on FKMud, and 3E D&D for that matter, are no longer heavily weighted for the illusionist (Phantasmal killer and Weird notwithstanding). We are subjecting the illusionists to a coded disadvantage if they are opposing three schools, and it really just needs to be a little closer to 3E.

In the interests of full disclosure - I do have an illusionist

Additionally, I'd really like to see specialists get some sort of a boost on the back of this change, otherwise the allure of specialising rather than becoming a generalist mage is further deadened. I'm just not convinced that the ability to grandmaster a handful of spells and one extra spellslot is really enough to make up for losing two schools of magic and not being able to cast out of school spells as well as a mage.

[Takket]

To begin with, the only wizard I play is a transmuter which have had two barred schools from the beginning so this change does not affect me in the least. That said, the list does seem lopsided and rather random. I may have missed it, but what was the reasoning behind barring three from illusionists? I don't have one so I don't know if it's warranted or not, it just seemed odd. The few other things that came across as odd were that necromancy and invocation are barred from three schools, and transmutation, divination, and conjuration are all barred from only one (that's taking into consideration that it's been made clear that a diviners guild will never be implemented).

The easiest way I can see to even out all of it would be to change the conjurer's opposing guild from divination to transmutation (leaving evocation there), remove necromancy from illusion, and to change invocation on enchanters to conjuration. So basically...

Abjuration opposes Transmutation, Illusion
Conjuration opposes Transmutation, Invocation
Diviner doesn't matter anyway
Enchanter opposes Conjuration, Necromancy
Illusionist opposes Invocation, Abjuration
Invoker opposes Enchantment, Conjuration
Necromancer opposes Illusion, Enchantment
Transmuter opposes Abjuration, Necromancy

Again, none of this is going to affect me at all anyway. It's just a suggestion to try to make things a little more even for all the other schools.

[Hviti]

Additionally, I'd really like to see specialists get some sort of a boost on the back of this change, otherwise the allure of specialising rather than becoming a generalist mage is further deadened. I'm just not convinced that the ability to grandmaster a handful of spells and one extra spellslot is really enough to make up for losing two schools of magic and not being able to cast out of school spells as well as a mage.

What's that you say? Make specialists a more viable choice?

There were several suggestions in this thread:
http://www.skynet.ie/~martin/gallweycom ... php?t=7552

Not sure if any of them are practicable. It would be nice to see some considered - if changes are being made, now might be an appropriate time.

Thanks very much for the action on this.

[Layna]

I have WAY too much free time. As far as I can work it out, after tallying up the numbers, things stand like this (not including level 1 spells, which everyone can cast):

Level 2
Abjuration 1
Conjuration 4
Divination 2
Enchantment 2
Evocation 1
Illusion 2
Necromancy 1
Transmutation 11

Level 3
Abjuration 5
Conjuration 4
Divination 2
Enchantment 6
Evocation 2
Illusion 1
Necromancy 5
Transmutation 8

Level 4
Abjuration 3
Conjuration 4
Divination 1
Enchantment 3
Evocation 4
Illusion 1
Necromancy 4
Transmutation 4

Level 5
Abjuration 2
Conjuration 3
Divination 0
Enchantment 3
Evocation 1
Illusion 2
Necromancy 1
Transmutation 3

Level 6
Abjuration 2
Conjuration 2
Divination 1
Enchantment 1
Evocation 2
Illusion 2
Necromancy 2
Transmutation 8

Level 7
Abjuration 2
Conjuration 4
Divination 0
Enchantment 3
Evocation 1
Illusion 1
Necromancy 2
Transmutation 2

Level 8
Abjuration 1
Conjuration 1
Divination 1
Enchantment 3
Evocation 1
Illusion 2
Necromancy 2
Transmutation 2

Level 9
Abjuration 0
Conjuration 1
Divination 0
Enchantment 4
Evocation 1
Illusion 1
Necromancy 3
Transmutation 0

Which means that when we make the change over to being in line with canon rules:

Abjurers have 16 spells they can grandmaster and 50 they are barred from.
Conjurers: 22/20
Diviner: 7/22
Enchanter: 25/33
Illusionist: 12/49
Invoker: 13/47
Necromancer: 20/37
Transmuter: 38/36

Obviously not all the spells are of equal power, but I thought I'd throw the numbers out there for people to consider. I know a massive amount of work was done with the overhaul of the spell system, and a ton of new spells were brought in. But it still seems a little bit... unbalanced when it comes to the sheer number of spells that certain types of specialists will either be able to grandmaster, or won't be able to cast at all. Poor abjurers!

Additionally, I fail at formatting that in a less long-winded way. -_-

[Sithiel]

Abjurer opposes Transmutation, Illusion
Conjurer opposes Divination, Invocation
Diviner opposes Conjuration
Enchanter opposes Invocation, Necromancy
Illusionist opposes Necromancy, Invocation, Abjuration
Invoker opposes Enchantment, Conjuration
Necromancer opposes Illusion, Enchantment
Transmuter opposes Abjuration, Necromancy

I hope that meets with everyone's approval

Umm, Why does illusionist oppose 3 schools and Diviner (Do we even have a divination school?) only opposes one

[Layna]

Kregor's post on page 1 of this thread explains this Sithiel - that's how it's set out in canon, not by the FK admin team.

And no, we have no Diviners' guild because frankly, the majority of the divination spells just cannot be translated to game mechanics.

[Zorinar]

I have noticed the barred-school restriction issue for some time now but never got around to posting about it. Thanks all for bringing this topic up. A few things I would like to bring up myself. The rest of this post is slightly off topic, sorry.

1) There appear to be some issues in terms of the quantitative number of spells available for Grand Master in the specialist schools. It would be nice to see a few more spells added to the schools lacking, like Invokers, Illusionists and Abjurers. I know adding spells is probably not a priority but I just wanted to bring it up.

-slightly more off topic-
2) It would also be nice if the spells displayed on the SPELLS list were in game or had more availability. For example, some spells are only taught by PC players. Although this is a great reward avenue for role play it is also a negative. Some of these players are hording the spells and will not release them but under very special circumstances, if even at all. Some of the older players with this knowledge log in less and less, although many like to keep some spells secret. I would like to see this change in some way.

-even more off topic-
3) A few comments suggested that there isn't a lot of advantage to being a specialist at the moment. I think there is huge advantage, to be honest. For example, (assuming I have understood the posts on other threads correctly) a mage could cast Polar ray at no higher than spell level 16, (Adept) while an invoker could cast it at 25, Grandmaster. The difference is Huge. Other schools can also see such amazing differences, such as the Transmuter's ability to polymorph or the conjurers ability to summon etc..

-back on topic:)-
4) Illusionist already have a low number of specialty spells, I think a three school barred system would be a heavy burden on them.

5) Since there is no Divine School, how about making conjuration opposed to Necromancy and Invocation? Kind of makes sense to me that Necro's would summon undead and Conjurers would summon non-undead. Probably would make sense to have Necromancers opposed to Conjuration as well, in place of another one of their already opposed schools.

[Brodnur]

I have a necromancer and though he is barred from learning spells from the Illusion sphere, he is able to learn spells from the Enchantment sphere, at least up to level 5 spells so far that I have found trainers for.

[Hviti]

Well, by the list Tavik compiled, Necromancers are only barred from Illusion, though by the FR canon/Kregor's posts it would be Illusion and Enchantment.

However, as this has been unresolved for about a year and a half, I'm now unsure whether it's not just supposed to be this way and Invokers/Transmuters are supposed to have 2 barred schools while the rest have 1.