A possibility: global reset

[Pirro]

I don't have any objections, but I have one question, which may sound crass: can you give an estimate of how many stat points total a level 50 character would have after the reset?

The reason I ask is that I'd like my squire to eventually have, say:
STR 16, to be a competent warrior (someone gave him a weapon as a gift which turned out to be too heavy for him ).
CON 14, to be able to stand in the front lines of a fight
CHA 16 or higher, to be an inspiring leader
WIS 14, to be a competent leader (and a good healer)
INT 12, since in principle this could be a dump stat, but then evil will always triumph because good is dumb.
DEX 8? (I don't really care)

This is a total of 80 stat points, which seems really high. I'm 90% sure that in the current system I'd have to spend loads of glory to do this.

something like 18 Str, 14 Dex, 16 Con, 12 Int, 12 Wis, 12 Cha perhaps

That would add up to easily more than enough for me, but I don't want to assume that I should hold you to those numbers

[Dustin]

A quick summery of my two cents. If this reset is done and the changes such as fighters getting their bonus feats from 3.5 are added the other classes need their benifits from 3.5 as well. This goes beyond just feats. As I see it, feats are the fighter's biggest asset when compared to other warriors. While fighters are getting their biggest bonus, the other classes are not. The bonus feats that a ranger gets, for example, would not be enough to compensate for what the fighters get. I wrote my thoughts on this out but it was just over two pages long at 12 pt font. Is there an email address I could send my Microsoft Word document to so that the thoughts and suggestions could be considered without taking up a great deal of space on the forums. I don't know that they are worth clogging up this thread. It is alread a long read as it is.

I am not for the reset. All the old players that complain about the new players need to consider that we may not be asking for the reset either. I'm not. I've had games I loved get highjacked by change and have lost interest in them after all the work I put into them. So please lay off the attack on us as a whole. Thanks.

[Lathander]

Please lay off ALL attacks as a whole.

[Nysan]

Any updates on the future of the teaching system? Stat reset is important, but not the only thing in the OP.

[Lathander]

No updates on anything. All these comments are being considered in our private discussions. That doesn't mean that everyone will end up getting his/her way, but at least we listen. Whatever happens will happen because we believe it to be in the best interest of the mud.

[Tavik]

I've got to group myself as a long term player in favor of the reset. There seems to be the notion that those that are in favor of the reset are one's who've not had their characters long enough for the reset to have any major effect on them. This is not true. My characters will definitely feel an impact from this just like the other old characters (I've been around for about 9 years now so if I'm not qualified as a long term player with "old" characters, please forgive me). To me, the benefits of this change outweigh the drawbacks. Obviously, others feel differently. I would just ask that for the purposes of this discussion the "sides" not be viewed as new players for the change old players against.

One of my concerns, however, regarding the reset is that without being able to see the actual numbers, it makes it a bit more difficult to plan out and efficiently recover from the change. I REALLY, REALLY don't want to derail this into reasons for and against viewing numbers. I'm simply stating that it would be more advantageous and helpful to see the numbers so that we can better gear our characters towards what we want them to be.

Now then, for the long term goals of old characters, I think RP should be primary. I like the idea of glory bought dwellings as it does (to a small extent) generate RP and eliminates the grinding we have to do as high level characters to generate cash.

I really do think bestowing titles is a great start. However, I do think there should be some responsibility attached to the titles earned. The reason I bring this up is because while I can maybe aspire to attain the title of "Grand Champion Fighter of Waterdeep" if there aren't any responsibilities or duties associated with it, it just becomes a title that people can either choose to RP with or just shrug off since the title doesn't really mean anything. Now if the title grants the bearer the ability to allow students into the fighters guild for cheaper or free after training with them for a bit, then the title becomes MUCH more important, generates RP for a lot of people (indefintely I might add), and gives people a goal to reach. The elected officials is a great start for this, but I don't think it should stop there. I think PC guild leaders should be brought in as well as PC run organizations (which have been brought up in the past and I believe are, in fact, in the works).

One last thing I would suggest would be to reset a character's XP gain rate back to that of about a level 20 upon reaching level 50. Really, once you reach that point, skills/spells/trades/etc. become the point of interest and at that point, it's hard to learn anything else because you gain XP so slowly. This may seem easy to abuse, but really, if people speed through their levels to reach 50, then they neglect their skills and such, and so upon reaching 50, they won't be as capable as they would otherwise and will have to resort to weak, slow XP giving areas. On the other hand, those that take their time through the levels will be a lot more capable at the higher levels and will gain XP quickly, but will have a lot less left to learn. Plus, this only takes the character up to however high the trainer can take them, so it doesn't mean you'll get GM at skills any quicker than normal, it just eliminates the need for endless grinding for high level characters.

[Lathander]

One of my concerns, however, regarding the reset is that without being able to see the actual numbers, it makes it a bit more difficult to plan out and efficiently recover from the change

We recognize that IF there is a reset, the process will need to include a way for players to make the best decisions regarding their characters' stat redistributions. Do not interpret this to mean that anyone will or will not see their stats.

Please remember, we imms have mortal alts too. We hold ourselves to a very high standard regarding our own play and ethics online. Anything that affects your play, affects the play of our own characters as well.

[Glim]

I haven't really voiced my opinion because I am not really sure which id prefer. I am against the reset only because I am lazy and itd be a hassle to retrain feats and stats, but it might actually be nice to get another chance to rethink your character and actually have his (or her) stats reflect how you view them now at a high level, if they don't already. Skills, I would mind, but just stats and feats, not so much.

It might even let me rethink my feats and free up some for the teacher feats.

Quick question as far as clarity goes. How will this affect stats that have been lost? For example, Glim, in my early years, reincarnated a bit too much, thus, his con is horrible. Id say seven or eight. Would this reset it back at 10?

Also, if you have spent a feat on weapon proficiency to gain a weapon skill outside your guild, are you going to keep that or will it be removed?

[Elenthis]

Despite that I've never once had to reincarnate on Elenthis, I must say, the answer I'd love to hear from the imms right now is "Yes...now would be a great time to wipe the slate clean for those of you who have lost CON from Death."

[Lathander]

A good point, well made. It will be added to our discussion. Thank you.

[Dalvyn]

I *think* (notice the bold, the italics, and the asterisks!) that we can't distinguish between someone who would have lower stats because of reincarnation and someone who have lower stats because they missed on some stat points or something. All we can determine is how many times someone died ... so I think that yes, it would be some sort of "clean state".

Now, on the other hand, you would be reset to normal stats, but the stats that you lost while reincarnating would not be reimbursed with glory.

To sum it up: I think (remember: italics, bold, and asterisks) that the reset will be beneficial for you, but you would still be one notch (in glory points, not in stat points) under those who have not reincarnated.

[Lea]

In all honesty I am not sure how i feel about all of this. I just learned about it while I was studying for a final on Monday and just got to read all the posts today. I think maybe we should let each player decided for each of their individual characters if they want it to be reset or not. If they don't then they don't get the new added bonuses but get to keep their characters as they are. If they do then they get set back to whatever the decided stats are and get the new added feat bonuses.

I am not sure that any way you look at this that everyone is going to think it is fair. I know that I really don't have the time I used to spend on here anymore to train my characters and I prefer to rp when I am on. And really wouldn't have much of an inclination to run off to train them all over again when I do have them on.

[Sszaghar]

The reset is a good idea to me. Regardless of others perspective on this, it seems that it would be in the best interest of the mud itself. As far as the game being revised to a 3.5e system, this seems like a necessary step to me.

Furthermore, D&D revolves around your characters statistics, gauging what you can and cannot do. There are a lot of aspects of FR and D&D in general that cannot be implemented if the stat system is not balanced and regulated. I am not saying that this reset is all about "balancing" the game, but that it is also about bringing about the possibility of future revisions and "more things on the side". As far as RP itself goes... yes, the game is RP based, but your RP reflects your character and what your character is capable of.

Aside from that, I am not assuming anything here, but if the system remains as it is now, it is a slim chance that you will ever see statistic based perks and/or prestige classes. One of the main prerequisites for attaining a prestige class/class perks is your stats. If every class can attain the same stat scores in any stat and if it is possible for all of your stats to be above average, then there is no way to regulate what perks/prestige your character can have. Also, for just the basic guilds of the classes... it would be nice that not any fighter can become a ranger, regardless of stats, or than any rogue can be a thief or a bard.

I have read some posts where it has been suggested that stat prerequisites for wizard specialists be removed. I suggest that they perhaps be lowered to reflect the stat cap if it is implemented, but not entirely removed, and that stat prerequisites be added to the other class guilds as well. Thus, if you have plans for your fighter to be a paladin later on, then you would have to build towards that goal.

Edited just for further illustration:

Based on the stats that Dalvyn posted earlier regarding a level 50 character... you would be able to have something like 18 in your classes main stat, 16 in a secondary (backup stat), 14 in a third, and 13-8 in the other three. So this gives you the chance to reflect your classes 1-2 "main" stats as well as a third "above average" stat. In regards to that, you could make that third stat your "guild prerequisite stat". So for an illusionist, you would have something like 18 int, 16 wis, 14 dex (guild stat), and have scores 13-8 in everything else, and so on for the other guilds. (Too many combinations to really post all of the possibilities).

This is not adding in race bonuses and penalties, so with this, it would be easier/harder for some races to be certain classes/guilds than others. So a races overall preference of profession would be more recognized.

Just an idea...

[Lathander]

Just a point of clarification. Dalvyn made it before but it bears repeating as it seems to still weigh on some players' thoughts.

And really wouldn't have much of an inclination to run off to train them all over again when I do have them on.

If the stat and/or feat reset happens, PCs will have easy access to the trainers needed to accomplish stat/feat redistribution.

[Selveem]

I understand this is still all being discussed, but for the sake of argument for my questions, let's assume it will happen:

What of the characters who legitimately trained a stat to 20? As has been advertised, there are in-game trainers that train stats to 20. Will they have to hunt all throughout the realms to find them again?

If the stat and/or feat reset happens, PCs will have easy access to the trainers needed to accomplish stat/feat redistribution.

Does this answer my question, then? Trainers to train PC stats to a maximum of 20 (plus racial modifier) will be made available?

Also, regarding feats: The trainers that will be made available to train feats that normally have a low level requirement will have those level requirements removed temporarily?

Another thing I'm not sure if the staff/players have considered: People who have benefited from Weapon Proficiency, Skill Focus, and Spell Focus feats.

They will get to keep those increases and possibly weapons that do not belong to their class. They will no longer need to spend feat points to get those back because a cleanup of feats/stats will not be able to check for this.

(I don't think I should have to note that I urge players NOT to abuse this, in the meantime! I made this post public in hopes to curb such type of behavior by raising awareness.)

[Dalvyn]

I don't have any objections, but I have one question, which may sound crass: can you give an estimate of how many stat points total a level 50 character would have after the reset?

That is still under discussion ... so it's not really possible to give you a precise answer right now. (Just thought I'd answer this so you don't think you are being ignored!)

[Dalvyn]

Ah, and by the way, if you wanted to get some sort of rule book but didn't really want to invest into buying it, you can download the Beta version of the Pathfinder RPG rules (from www.paizo.com). You will have to create an account, but the download is free. This is a (beta version of an) rule system that is based on 3.5, so it is a good reading if you want to learn some more about the rules behind the system.

[Dargeth]

I guess I could consider myself an older character. I dont post to much on here, but I thought I would give my small opinion. I play on this mud, especially lately, for one main reason, and that is to role play. I have spent years developing attitudes, feelings, emotional ties, and on and on with Dargeth. As others have posted, I have become comfortable in playing Dargeth to an extent that is hard to attain without the years playing him. Will a reset change any of that. I do not know. Like others, I know what he can and cannot do. It is nice to have at least one character that you know inside and out. I think a reset would change that at least a little bit, and that is hard to come to terms with. For me, to spend time worrying about how I am going to redevelop Dargeth is not worth it. I would rather spend that time role playing. I agree with Lea in that perhaps if some of us were given a choice in whether we want to do it or not. That would be one of the better solutions.

As for 'older' players having better stats and such, I think that is a moot point. Yes, Dargeth has some good stats. Does it do him any good. Not one bit. I am sure some freshly made level 50 martial character could come whoop on him. I dont know, I have never attempted to find out. I hate pks. I would much rather rp a situation than resort to fighting. Anyway, I think in that respect, the balance in the game comes from your priorities in playing. Could Dargeth be more powerful than he is? Yes, and I am sure many people think that anyway. What I think a lot of us 'older' characters have an issue with in the reset idea, is that it just feels like it takes all the time and effort that we put into our characters and throws it all on the ground and stomps on it. I dont say this in a mean way, just that is how it kinda feels.

Would I like to feel that feats and skills make a difference? Yes. Would I like to feel that my stats mean something? Yes. But would I want a reset to do it? Not really. Maybe for my one other character I wouldnt mind. But for my main, who I have devoted so much time to. No. Just my thoughts.

[Horace]

I don't have any objections, but I have one question, which may sound crass: can you give an estimate of how many stat points total a level 50 character would have after the reset?

Just to give you an idea, as far as frequency goes...clearly this would still be tempered by starting # of stats, since most systems are point buy now. Buuut, in FK, modern rules characters get a stat point every 5th level, meaning by the time you're level 50 you'll have had 10 natural stat increases. In 3.5 you get a stat increase every 4 levels, meaning you'll get 5.

So solely based on level increase stat raises, you'll be looking at 5, if it's going on 3.5 rules.

Which isn't too crazy, I know with spending 200 glory you're around 100 stat points in total..subtract 15 (10 glory, 5 in level raise difference) and you're at 85. Which is still a little high, but definitely in DnD ballpark for a level 20.

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I also wanted to point out that Sszaghar's post was spot on as far as future implications being introduced. Another huge aspect of DnD that currently is being hamstringed because of insane stat points are magical items with greater than +1 bonuses.

Items with significant stat increases and +3-5 weapons are staples of the game, which aren't in play because of how easily it'd take people into metahuman levels in all stats. At least, that's how I view it. It certainly can't help.

[Sszaghar]

Another huge aspect of DnD that currently is being hamstringed because of insane stat points are magical items with greater than +1 bonuses.

My thoughts exactly. With a stat nerf, those +1 items that I hear people referring to as "no big deal" would not be looking too shabby. Which, in my opinion, is the way it should be.

In actuality, there a myriad of possibilities that would be open to the game if this change were to come about. My overly long tangent in my previous post was just one. Not instantaneous by far, but still, the possibilities would be there.

Just one other note... I was browsing through my 3.5e core books, no easy feat since I have about 30-40 of them, but I believe I saw something along the lines of "stat bonuses do not stack in 3.5e". Meaning, that regardless of racial bonuses and items, your stats cannot go any higher than the maximum allowed. Though, I believe the maximum is slightly higher than maximum base allowed, so you can benefit from bonuses, but you wouldn't be able to have a entire kit of +2 items and be superman. It would still cost you less stat points if you were to create as a race that has bonuses in a stat that relates to your class though.

Not 100% sure on the stat rule... I could have misinterpreted it. But it sounds right to me.