Forgotten Kingdoms Forums

Based on SRD 3.5 Ranger class
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/ranger.htm

Fixing Rangers to fit 3.5 in FK could be accomplished with a few changes and would benefit the class which is in need of some attention. The changes focus around feats given to Rangers for free in 3.5 at certain levels. The important thing to remember about the feats give through Combat Style is that Rangers do not need to me stat requirements or other prerequistes to be considered as having them.

There are a couple ways this could be handled. Either code it so at the levels mentioned above the Feats are just given Rangers. Not sure how much effort would be needed or if its even possible to code the Combat Style feats to only work when in light armor and to code it so when the Ranger chooses either Archery or Two-weapon combat it will automatically select the proper feats.
Combat Style - Level 7
Endurance - Level 10
Improved Combat Style - Level 15
Combat Style Mastery - Level 28

Note in this solution the addtion of the combat styles would also necessitate lowering dual wield for Rangers from level 30ish where it is now to level 7 for Rangers

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A simpler solution is to give the Ranger 3 Bonus feats similar to Fighters and limit what they can be spent on. The 3 ranged feats (Precise Shot, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot) or 3 of the two weapon feats. (Two-weapon Fighting, Improved Two-weapon Fighting, and Greater Two-weapon fighting.) The training checks for prerequistes would need to be coded to exclude rangers from needing the stats/feats requirements for these feats. And you could just assign the bonus feats at higher levels to keep dual wield at its current level, say 32, 37, 42 which would still give them to Rangers with ECLs from various races.

In this solution I would keep the free Endurance Feat as an automatically earned feat (probably easiest to just give this free endurance feat when the character offically becomes a Ranger and the other feat changes for Rangers are made. It would keep it at the level needed since you can not do the Ranger Class quest until level 10 anway)

Not to mention Timaeus. We only get one of the many favored enemies we should receive.

If you are using fixed feats, would it be better used in a new ranger area? There are a lot of house rules when dealing with this class, would specialization be better supported if it was part of a sub-guild or new order? And if we are talking updates, I would suggest adding halflings as an exception to the ranger race list. Or at the very least, ghostwise halflings, if they are druids, why not rangers? Their stats, natural background with Yondalla (Sheela Peryroyl), and current under-use might be greatly bolstered by allowing a few of the CG ones in.

So, after spending some time on a ranger, my first thought it... Wow! I remember playing a ranger class in D&D and don't remember her being so weak! The weakness has made my loner ranger particularly hard, but that's my own choice.

I think the feat changes mentioned above would be a really good start! Adding the bonus feats would be great. The preference for archer vs. dual wield can be be set in the CG or through a guild. If guild is the way to go, I'm happy to type up an area and/or quest ideas if someone is willing to adapt that into MUD code. Rangers need some love!

Cadyf is a halfling ranger. I was allowed to become one after I submitted an application, however I would like to point out that in the policy section on the forums, Halfling is listed as one of the *allowed* races of rangers.

I personally think that trying to fix the favored enemy thing is the most important, because it is the best ability a ranger can possess. I would like that they get the +2 to add several times, but in terms of balance, I understand why it may be best to just give 4 different favored enemies

However, I would argue that it would be on par with a fighter in terms of damage output. Fighters can reliably always have power attack active do to weapon focus, so they get a total of +7 extra damage, vs a ranger of +8 if they specialize in one foe.

This is making the assumption that favored enemy was fixed to represent it's stats in SRD, doing extra damage instead of doing the bonus to hit as it says in the helpfile

The problem with this is some things in tabletop would make you pretty much invincible if it were in FK. What I have always done with my characters is just focus or sub/cross-class them by combining race/class/guild concepts and tailoring them through attributes, items, skills, and feats. My second arcane archer/rogue attempt has worked so much better than I expected it would... my first attempt with a Sun Elf some years ago was a disaster - he was a master of squish. You just have to keep tampering until you get it right I suppose.

Nothing suggested here would make Rangers invincible by any stretch of the imagination. It would begin to bring them up to par with other classes changed to 3.5 rules. Rangers are seriously defective in current FK code which is a major reason why there are no really active Rangers and have not been any in a long time. Adding the combat style feats would give them something that they should already have as every other class in FK has their bonus feats according to 3.5 and give them a chance to use some more feats towards other things. Adding in the full racial enemies to reflect 3.5 would give them a little more and they would still be far from invincible and still a distance behind Wizards Fighters Priests Druids Paladins and even Thieves.

Simply put there is no reason to not begin to fix Rangers up to 3.5 standard.

Eh, invincible probably wasn't the best term. Overpowered is what I was looking for. By itself, the changes would be reasonable, but when you start adding in druid magic, items, and etc... they quickly become ridiculous. I would hate to see drizzits start popping up everywhere

I don't disagree that Rangers could use a bit more specialization, but a full 3.5ed equivalent in FK would be broken. There used to be a good amount of rangers in FK, but I think they got nerfed at some point... not entirely sure what was changed.

I do remember that guilding as a Ranger used to be a seriously long RP process (like Paladins) due to the power of them, but it being automated might have something to do with it. Again, not certain.

I've seen some very deadly rangers on FK as is though.

Overpowered is also a grossly inappropriate word to use regarding these changes. Add four feats (either 3 bow OR 3 dual wield) + 1 rank of endurance does not make them overpowered at all, not even competitive with a fighter since they do not have access to all the feats a fighter has regarding weapon focus/specialization. Rangers also have the most demanding stat point distribution besides Paladins. Ranger spells are limited to 4th level and with an 18 wisdom (laughable with the current stat points) they have a total of 20 spells 6/5/5/4 for spell levels with cure serious being their best healing spells which barely makes a dent in a level 50s health even a wizard.

Wizards have 11 feats and instant death spells and spells with more utility survialbility.
Priests have heavy armor up to 40 AC and instant death spells/full healing, spells with more utility and survivablity.
Fighters have heavy armor, 10 bonus feats for 18 total and a two handed wielding fighter can do +16 damage PER swing through feats a dual wielding fighter can gain an extra +1 to hit and +4 damage per hand with the dual wield feats with an extra attack tacked on that Rangers can not access. Fighters also run around with 30-37 AC easily.

Please explain how a Ranger would be overpowered with 4 additional feats and possibly a small situational bonus to a couple race enemies in this environment because the answer is they are not.

The quest to become a Ranger had more to do with explaining what Rangers are and the roleplaying side of them which is still the focus of the Ranger quests. And the only 'deadly' rangers you talk about are from a very different time in FK code when stats weren't capped, dual wield did not have the current code behind it for to hit/damage penalties, and there was mana and the spell lists were not exactly cannon

That was a pretty amazing analysis of overall balance.

Especially when put like that, I think that Rangers will benefit from all of the changes proposed, and it won't be a detriment to other classes in terms of balance.

Please help me to sum this up because I really don't have the time to study it in excruciating detail: you're talking about adding four free, existing feats to rangers?

If so, then Casamir has a good point and we could do this with a new ranger training area (something that's needed anyway).

Basically of yes. You would add 1 feat, Endurance at completion of the basic ranger quest. Then each ranger would have to make a choice of either Two Weapon Combat or Archery combat focus. Then based on that choice the ranger would receive the following feats free.

UPON BECOMING A RANGER
1 Rank Endurance

TWO WEAPON COMBAT FOCUS
Two-weapon Fighting
Improved Two-weapon Fighting
Greater Two-weapon fighting

ARCHERY COMBAT FOCUS
Precise Shot
Point Blank Shot
Rapid Shot

This addition including the choice of Combat Style can be accomplished with qbits and quests at levels to be figured out. The race enemy thing would have to be coded and does not need to hold up the feat end of the changes.

Harroghty wrote: If so, then Casamir has a good point and we could do this with a new ranger training area (something that's needed anyway).

I'll happily start working on an small area concept, room descriptions, quests, etc. Any builders free that are willing to collaborate and turn my ideas into code?

Rhangalas wrote:Eh, invincible probably wasn't the best term. Overpowered is what I was looking for. By itself, the changes would be reasonable, but when you start adding in druid magic, items, and etc... they quickly become ridiculous. I would hate to see drizzits start popping up everywhere

I don't disagree that Rangers could use a bit more specialization, but a full 3.5ed equivalent in FK would be broken. There used to be a good amount of rangers in FK, but I think they got nerfed at some point... not entirely sure what was changed.

I do remember that guilding as a Ranger used to be a seriously long RP process (like Paladins) due to the power of them, but it being automated might have something to do with it. Again, not certain.

I've seen some very deadly rangers on FK as is though.

I do not believe that class balance has much correlation with RP intensive guilding, in the case of both Rangers and Paladins (I do not know about the past but they are certainly not overpowered now). As for rangers, even with all the changes suggested they would still be gimmicky fighters handicapped by the godawful availability of armor which fit the class allowance, and lack of useful animal companions. In all my experience with FK, fighters wiping the floor with rangers has been the standard tale. I have never seen evidence of these "very deadly rangers" and wonder if your experience with them is recent and/or empirical.

There were at one point very powerful ranger characters, I think that took a downturn with the previous armour defence system and the feat capabilities of fighters. Now for me, its not about making a ranger in order to triumph over others, rather it would be to do around few things:

1. Survive creatures in the wilds alone, not necessarily creatures you'd find in dungeons or the dread places of the world, but a ranger should be able to best a collection of poachers and a pack of bloodthirsty direwolves in the comfort of his isolation.

2. Be able to utilize light armour as a strength and not a weakness.

3. Be able to spar or pvp as successfully as rogue classes are currently able to.

I can go on a bit, but I don't have a ranger, never did, I prefer being comfortable and lazy (which they are not) These are only my opinion.

Aldren is the only truly competitive ranger that I can name. He entered and placed well at competitions, even against fighters like Braeck, Harroghty, Timaeus, etc.

That being said, this was some time ago. I am willing to accept a soft-coded guild solution for rangers as a trial unless someone has a better idea. I am not able to devote time to supporting this project any more than I support other building projects. In other words, it needs to be planned and executed without significant aid from the hierarchy of the Builder Council.

I would agree with Gwain and Harroghty. At one point, yes, Aldren was a pretty awesome character to play because not only was it great to play the ranger class from an RP standpoint (I mean, I based my character off of Strider from LoTR), but because it was fun going to tournaments and being a viable contender in light and medium armor. Now, Aldren gets his face kicked in by level 30 fighters.

Now, notably with fighter's feats (both quantity and quality thereof) and the lack of light and medium armour posing any benefit that it once did, rangers really do need all the help they can get (especially getting their proper feat trees and more dual-wield benefits). If soft-code is something that can get the rangers the help they need, I'm all for it (not that I'm even qualified to build the proper area support).

Long story short. The number of active characters of any given class prove how well the class is balanced at any given time. When rogues were viable, we had piles of bards and thieves. Now that rangers are gimped as they are, they've (we've) all disappeared.

My two cents, the aforementioned ideas to fix the ranger class are great.

Yeah, I'll admit it has been an age since I interacted with any Rangers, I didn't know there were changes to armor defense; the majority of my characters do not use armor.

It's whatever though, I'm generally apprehensive about class revamps regardless of what it is. The trends that follow such things are usually... disappointing.

just a side note, if your going to add in a two weapon fighting style you may also want to lower the level requirment on dual wield. Been awhile scince I played a ranger but for fighters and warriors they do not get it till level 32 wich has always been the reason from what i gather it has not been used more. Waiting till lvl 32 to get your main fighting style just bites.