Evil Knights?

[Alitar]

So I'm curious... We do not allow Blackguards or evil paladins in-game, but do we allow evil knights? This has had me curious for some time now.

-edit I ask because with the amount of effort that has been put into building the credibility of the title I could understand and accept both sides of this answer quite readily.

[Harroghty]

There have been so-called cavaliers who were evil. (Mostly Cyricists in the Ebon Spur, but a few others also.) There has not been, during my tenure with the game, an evil character bearing the title "sir", i.e. a knight in earnest.

Putting my paladin administrator hat on, I do not have a problem with an evil knight theoretically, but -practically speaking- there would obviously be a high burden of proof in role-play. There is not a huge amount of role-play enforcement in this game in the general sense, but I am definitely interested in upholding a high standard with so-called knight PCs. Any knight PC, regardless of alignment, is more than just an armored horseman; it is a long-term, consistent investment in role-play.

[Alitar]

Well said. The requirement to apply to play any sort of knight will no doubt keep the integrity of the title at its current standard. I'd be interested to see how an evil knight might employ the chivalric code...

[Selveem]

My best suggestion would be to review the Book of Vile Darkness. It has plenty of guidance as to how to play an evil character. It even takes the time to outline evil acts, which I will post here:

Lying
Cheating
Theft
Betrayal
Murder
Vengeance
Worshipping Evil Gods and Demons (I assume Devils could be included here)
Animating the Dead or Creating Undead
Casting Evil Spells
Damning or Harming Souls
Consorting with Fiends
Creating Evil Creatures
Using Others for Personal Gain
Greed
Bullying and Cowing Innocents
Bringing Despair
Tempting Others

There are also some fetishes and addictions:

Cannibalism*
Masochism
Self-Mutilation*
Sadism
Psychopathy
Necrophilia*
Bestiality*
Alcoholism/Drug Addiction*

*acts that are forbidden or may be forbidden on FK

---

That said, there's a bit of gray area within the above list that may apply to an "Evil Knight." Some may apply only in certain situations, though. For instance, I couldn't see an Evil Knight (by Harroghty's standards) engaging in cheating in a duel by poisoning their weapon, but they could otherwise heavily manipulate a duel by way of location so that the duel is interrupted and their opponent is slaughtered by neighboring predators who happen to traverse the area.

[Alitar]

I visited this resource when I was in the developement stages of my Cyricist. The result has been fairly rewarding though, I didn't know that Drug Addiction wasn't allowed... gotta put the snuff-powder away I suppose...

[Gwain]

My opinion is that all men can be knights, but not all men can be paladins. Evil knights are not paladins. and cavaliers are high born men that avoid missile weapons and bows if it pleases them.

[Selveem]

I didn't know that Drug Addiction wasn't allowed... gotta put the snuff-powder away I suppose...

I don't know if that's still a rule for FK or not, that's why my caveat stated they "are or may be forbidden." I know when I got yelled at, it was on my Priest of Loviatar who was addicted to small doses of wyvern powder. If I had to guess, I'd suspect it was still against FK rules as it violates the PG-13* rating.

[Alitar]

Fair enough. It didn't constitute a pivotal factor for this character, nor even an addiction for that matter. More just a small bit of flavour.

[Harroghty]

I believe that the trick is to balance those things shown in that resource (Selveem's list) with an outward appearance of honor. Great examples are Ebon Spur characters like Nerian and Dalente; they are completely wicked, but many people overlook that because they mind their Ps and Qs in certain settings and are not dastardly at tournaments. No one sees the more wicked stuff. A friend of mine saw the comedian Bill Murray at a restaurant; Murry stole a french fry from his plate and smiled, saying, "No one will believe you" before walking off. If you are perfectly honorable at a tournament and then someone sees you poleaxing a lone traveler, the majority of people that someone sees are going to believe your public persona, not the act that only you saw once. That contradiction is the crux, I think, of an evil knight; the balance between law (because knight is a lawful role), real or perceived, and evil.

I do not know of an official rule against substance abuse, but I would not lump snuff in that category even so. We have pipes, cigars, and cigarettes. One method of ingesting tobacco should not be any worse than another; if you can smoke a cigar then you can take a pinch of snuff.

To Gwain's comment, yes, I affirm that there is no standard of proof for a cavalier as far as I am concerned. A player works that out with other players (e.g. within his faith, country, guild, etc.). I am the specific approval authority for knights and paladins because while the latter is more complex and formal, the former still has a high burden of proof in role-play. I am not concerned about class, alignment, or skills individually, but I am concerned with how those intersect with a long-term, consistent role-play. Yes, this is an arbitrary thing, but it's not necessarily also a close-minded one.

[Aldren]

I think Harroghty sums it up quite well. The "evil chevalier/knight" RP is incredibly difficult due to the balance of lawful acts with adversion to good tenets and chaotic, evil nature of the party involved. I've personally found RPing Nerian just as (if not more) difficult than RPing Sir Liric. With goodly knights, everything is quite clearly laid out - how you act, how you behave, the chivalric code and its cementing in your character as you go through the coded lessons and learn from a variety of knights. On the evil flip-side, there is very little laid out, and it is so very easy to get distracted from the lawful (real or perceived) aspects of playing an evil knight to turning straight to wanton murder and chaos. The line is fine and the balance is very difficult to find. I, myself, have hardly perfected it and in the end it just makes for some amazing quality RP.

Personally, Lath'lain was the epitome of what it meant to be an evil chevalier. Others have come and gone, but the high quality of RP, the extensive knowledge (both of realmslore and IC past and present), as well as the extremely high level of player maturity are NECESSITIES when trying to create a character that might develop into an evil counterpart to a knight (note, knight -not- paladin).

Though it has been one of the most challenging RPs I have undertaken in creating and forging a character through the years, it has been one of, if not THE, most rewarding of all. I encourage anyone that wants to create something to this end (beside from applying for it, which should be necessary), please contact me (ICly or OOCly) to learn more about what it will take and what is expected of you to be more than just a cavalier (mounted soldier). Anyone can buy a horse and master it - To epitomize the lawful expectations of an evil champion is so much more challenging.