Identify vs. Score

[Enig]

Heya folks, just as a thought.. When the score command was updated to include considerably more information this was most likely not intended to be an IC replacement for the identify spell.

[Grenwyn]

Some things you'd be able to sense a difference ICly (if it's easier to lift a weight, for example, or you're less clumsy than usual).

[Enig]

"I feel .. 10% stronger than before!"

Unless you're the kind of crazy person who carefully measures the maximum weight they can carry on a daily basis I doubt there'd be such a significant difference you'd be able to feel it, and measuring your clumsiness is even more ridiculous. What are you going to do, try and trip yourself? And even that only extends potentially to stat-boosting items. Armour/deflection/etc are far harder to define by just 'feeling' an item.

[Tyeslan]

I don't agree with that completely, to be honest, Gren. Let's be real here, some things we know OOCly, and bring it across ICly, and while we might know it, we need to realize that just because we have some magical creatures, or races, they aren't going to be able to feel everything, and be able to pinpoint it directly. Hence having identify. I get some people don't want to go out of the way to bug someone for it, but still, if you are in a group of others, you should make an effort.

Edit: Just to add here also. I think this goes back to the whole 'sensing' thing. People say I feel it does this, or that without consulting identify, and we aren't all knowing magical creatures, so this example we are setting for new players coming in, doesn't seem right, and leads to things being made obsolete just because we feel the need to be a little lazy about it.

[Kinni]

I'm, personally, of the opinion that I can feel stronger, more confident, more nimble, etc. However, I do agree with the matter of enchantments of deflection and the like. When I am 'testing' an object by wearing it, I generally disregard anything on the right side of the score sheet. That is unless it is an item I have had previously identified and might need to test it to jog my memory about its properties.

[Grenwyn]

Fair enough. The main character that I would roleplay as having a good sense for this kind of thing would be experienced with using/trading in magical trinkets, which I think would ICly tend to give you a good feel for being able to discern some of their effects. But like you said, that's only when no one with identify spells is available, and you could only apply that to certain effects anyways. Things like mind shielding, or protection from evil, or energy resistances wouldn't be easily discernable like that.

But for the sake of new players, I can agree with setting a good example.

[Enig]

I get the logical argument of 'I feel stronger!', but just as an example an increase from 18 to 19 strength is an increase of 5.5%. Do you really think you'd notice if you could suddenly lift 5.5% more than you could before?

[Aldren]

I agree with Enig 100%. I know we all are guilty of this, especially in low levels where RMI trinkets and items are a Godsend, and a lack of available and friendly wizards are a hindrance. However, too much suspension of disbelief leads to laziness and peoples' convenience at being able to discern magical properties within an item without actual application of the identify spell.

I know, specifically, of two Waukeenars who have made a large business (out of one person) out of discerning these magical properties. It leads to great RP, as I'm sure most of us can attest.

[Hrosskell]

I definitely think the obvious ones are attribute enhancements; you might not know precisely how much stronger you are, but that instant of a change is probably going to be recognisable--if you've ever actually lifted consecutive days you can feel some changes to your strength (usually in the reverse, getting weaker after stressing your muscles). I think how you convey your awareness is important, and using specifics is less than ideal, but unless it's a fairly subtle enchantment (like someone else said, resistances or less than physical/tangible protections) then giving a vague idea seems alright to me.

[Kinni]

I get the logical argument of 'I feel stronger!', but just as an example an increase from 18 to 19 strength is an increase of 5.5%. Do you really think you'd notice if you could suddenly lift 5.5% more than you could before?

I think this depends on the character. For a halfling rogue whose weight has an important affect on dexterity and therefore her AC, I do notice a difference. I recently lost my +1 STR ioun stone and cannot pick up the crates/chests that I previously had no problem with. This strain and annoyance is certainly something she recognizes ICly now that she requires helps with things that were once easy.

[Enig]

I think Kinni's example is the only one that actually makes sense, as there's a very tangible result, ie. "I can't lift this crate that I used to be able to lift, so that ioun stone I lost must have been strength-enhancing."

Saying, "I recognize I've increased in strength by 1!" is like saying, "Wow, I could bench press 400 lbs before, but now, without even trying, I know I could bench press 420 lbs!"

Of course if someone wants to go ahead and try to divine the properties of an item by experimenting with it, ie. carrying around labeled weights, actually trying to trip themselves, or even smacking a dummy around with a weapon, I don't really object to that (since it at least takes some effort). For the most part it just feels that 'sensing' an object's properties is a lazy end run around the system we have in place for divinations.

[Gwain]

I would suggest opening the ability to identify with scrolls or potions to all classes, or allowing classes like clerics to have access to the spell. To me, its not an issue of guessing, its an issue of few alternatives at certain times.

[Jadom]

I think Kinni's example is the only one that actually makes sense, as there's a very tangible result, ie. "I can't lift this crate that I used to be able to lift, so that ioun stone I lost must have been strength-enhancing."

Saying, "I recognize I've increased in strength by 1!" is like saying, "Wow, I could bench press 400 lbs before, but now, without even trying, I know I could bench press 420 lbs!"

Of course if someone wants to go ahead and try to divine the properties of an item by experimenting with it, ie. carrying around labeled weights, actually trying to trip themselves, or even smacking a dummy around with a weapon, I don't really object to that (since it at least takes some effort). For the most part it just feels that 'sensing' an object's properties is a lazy end run around the system we have in place for divinations.

I dunno, I think it's kind of unavoidable given the way stats work/interact with mechanics.

If you're strength is at an odd number, increasing it by one suddenly makes a noticeable difference in your damage, ability to hit things etc.

And the "mental" stats should be even more intangible (how do you suddenly feel smarter/wiser/more attractive?), yet for casters they have even more noticeable effects, "Hey, I put on that ring and suddenly realized I'm smart enough to remember more spells! I suddenly realize I'm wise enough to ask for more prayers from my God! I suddenly realize I'm beautiful enough to sing more songs!" and so forth.

That said, in general I think it'd probably be good RP/interaction to ask for identification if the opportunity arises regardless, because while you might ICly reasonably be able to tell an item is making you stronger/more agile/smarter whatever, you wouldn't know what else it might be doing, even if you're aware oocly.

[Alitar]

Does 'appraise' give a character an idea of an item's magical worth ICly or is the platinum value raising to be treated as OOC?

[Tyeslan]

As far as I know appraise doesn't allow you to see anything magical about it. That is what identify is for.


========
Appraise is the skill of looking at an object in detail and
determining more about it than the average person would about it. In
order to learn how to appraise an object a PC will need to do a quest
to learn the skill. The skill is not learned with the train command
but only by quest.

Basically it just gives you a little more information about the object that you couldn't see plainly, and that's about it.

[Grenwyn]

I believe what Alitar is asking is, does appraise allow you to deduce (from the listed worth) whether the item is magical, or does the listed worth ignore any magical properties?

[Tyeslan]

It doesn't list any magical properties from what I have been told. So no.

[Grenwyn]

It doesn't list any magical properties from what I have been told. So no.

So the average appraised price of a magical item is the same as the average price of a mundane item of the same type?

[Aldren]

No, appraise does provide (reliably) accurate worth (in platinum), item quality, and damage capability. Quality and capability is represented in words, not in the detail that identify does. These factors are based primarily on a character's skill at appraise, intelligence, and wisdom. This is a great skill for classes that do not have regular access to a wizard friend.

[Rhangalas]

It would be cool if there were some danger in wearing magical equipment when you have no idea what enchantment is on it. Maybe cursed gear that grants the usual bonuses, but secretly nerfs something else. (maybe luck or a -X to thirst/hunger)