Religion - The difference between Role Play and Coding

[teepo]

Just thought I'd type up a helpful guide to those that focus on a religious role play for their character that would possibly not work out in certain areas.

(Examples: Worshipping Shar while in Waterdeep. Worshipping Lathander while in Zhentil Keep. Worshipping any other deity whatsoever while in Menzoberranzan.)

In Dungeons and Dragons the Forgotten Realms setting there are many reasons why someone may be in a different location needing to hide their religious beliefs. The conceal command helps us with this in the MUD, but then sometimes we experience the uncanny knowledge that if a person worships a specific deity, according to code, they should have a specific holy symbol attached to their character. While this is absolutely true for Priests of a religion, it's not necessarily true for the average follower of a god or goddess outside of code purposes.

The average person who worships a specific deity may have something within their home that resembles that deity's faith like a shrine, or something they place on a mantle in their home. Not everyone owns a holy symbol they can wear around their neck and walk around town spouting "I LOVE SELUNE!" or "FEAR BESHABA!" These are often viewed as religious nuts (Note, I'm not judging anyone's personal views, this is strictly a Role Play post and nothing more) even in the FR world. (Example: Baldur's Gate 2 I believe had a follower of Beshaba that was a soothsayer standing out in the streets. Your options to speak to him were generally calling him crazy because he was speaking about the end of times and so on.)

Now this isn't to say that your character can't absolutely claim to love their deity with all their heart. Some people are better at following their deity's dogma than others and hold a lot of them in their heart, and they want to show that love for the world to see (outside of the areas they're going to have their throats slit for it.)

I just want to make sure that players are aware that using the knowledge that you know if a character worships a deity, they should have a holy symbol somewhere on their person because of the code, is using OOC knowledge.

I have ran into some that expected this in role play in the past (for me to have a symbol that I can reveal.) It's not a recent thing and I'm uncertain if anyone else has experienced it, but I want to type this up to help those out that maybe just didn't think that it would be using OOC knowledge of the game system.

[Rhangalas]

I agree with this to a certain degree. I have often thought some religious role play to be overly fanatical, but some religions require you to be this way or the consequences will be dire. For example, the dogma of a lot of evil deities specifically states that you should spread the fear of said deity whenever possible (most of the Furies expect this of you... not sure about Malar) and you are not allowed to conceal your faith under any circumstances - it is considered to be cowardly and/or false worship to hide the nature of your beliefs in these followings. The obsessive color matching of everything to the colors of the symbol and adding versions of the symbol to all worn equipment is a bit much though, especially if the character is not a cleric... I don't know why this bothers me, but it does. and to no end. I try not to be too judgmental though, because religion should never be a straightjacket and no one is ever 100% consistent.

I do agree completely with the OOC/meta-gaming viewpoint though. I go to great lengths to keep all of my characters separated to the point that I do not reveal that they were mine until I have killed them off or have no plans to play them anymore just for this reason.

[teepo]

This post wasn't to say fanatic RP is the wrong RP, it was just mentioning that using the knowledge that if you're a follower of someone the code requires you to have the holy symbol before you're "accepted" into the church.

You're a Harper Scout, you worship we'll say Mystra who happens to be a sponsor of the Harpers, you conceal your religion and go to spy on the Zhentarim and pretend to worship someone like Beshaba or Shar. Demanding someone to "reveal" their holy symbol as proof would be use of OOC knowledge of the code.

My examples were just generalizations and not ultimate ends to prove a point of this possible issue.

[teepo]

Oh and I can kinda feel you on some of the holy simple from head to toe deal. I mean it may be right for some, but it definitely isn't for everyone, lol.

[Rhangalas]

I got what you meant. People basically did the same thing with detection spells back in the day. They would purposely sit around in high traffic areas with detect alignment spells and point out every evil that walked by specifically due to the OOC knowledge that the availability of substantial power was geared more towards good alignments in the code and that by doing this, they were keeping evil alignments from getting any of it passed down to them through other players.

I just wanted to point out that some religions are notoriously radical, will broadcast their beliefs regardless of the locale, and will always demand some proof of fealty from the start. I do agree that this proof should not based on code knowledge though.

[Harroghty]

In general, our treatment of faiths is a little bit indelicate.

I would just add that the average citizen of the Realms probably prays to a number of different Powers. Praying to Tymora before they roll dice at the tavern, Umberlee before they head out to sea aboard a ship, Tempus before a battle, etc. While they will likely not invoke opposing deities, they might try to cover their bases around the nine alignments and probably are not too concerned so long as things go well for them.

Waterdeep is not a "good" city. Waterdeep is a multi-culti, weird, rich place and they want to stay rich (and get richer); they therefore see a lot of weird people and probably don't mind too much. The rub, of course, is that there are people in Waterdeep from all over and you might run afoul of their individual prejudices.

Zhentil Keep is an evil city, but it is also a lawful city. The Zhentilar do not tolerate public dueling or religious lynching (from the private sector). The Zhentarim are as likely to try to assassinate someone's level 50 follower of whatever evil-aligned Power as they are to try the same with someone else's follower of a good-aligned Power because of the whirling internal politics of one-upping someone else at backstabbing.

The bottom line is that, yes, I do not believe that most religious followers would be ideological zealots checking holy symbols or monitoring alignments in order to make public safety announcements on their findings. Doesn't mean that it's not worth noting information for yourself or your own circle of friends (in character), but yes, the idea that a PC would set up a holy symbol checking toll booth at Zhentil Keep or that one might monitor alignments in Waterdeep's market is a kind of ham-handed way to roleplay.

[Nysan]

Different faiths, different policies.

Far as FK goes, things seem to vary greatly depending on who the FM (or imm) is. Even within the same faith, a prior FM and a new FM can, and have, different visions on how members should behave, sometimes vastly different. End of the day, they are the heads and what they say goes.

Representation of the faith, in FK, functions the same way: depends on the leadership. Some will lax on the 'display symbol constantly' policy, or priests dressing 'priestly'... others will take a reluctant wandering priest and make his life a living hell, reminding him of his duties.

Player driven faith system all but ensures we will drift from source, now and then. Personality will pop up in RP-decision making. It is only natural.

[teepo]

Waterdeep is not a "good" city. Waterdeep is a multi-culti, weird, rich place and they want to stay rich (and get richer); they therefore see a lot of weird people and probably don't mind too much. The rub, of course, is that there are people in Waterdeep from all over and you might run afoul of their individual prejudices.

Zhentil Keep is an evil city, but it is also a lawful city. The Zhentilar do not tolerate public dueling or religious lynching (from the private sector). The Zhentarim are as likely to try to assassinate someone's level 50 follower of whatever evil-aligned Power as they are to try the same with someone else's follower of a good-aligned Power because of the whirling internal politics of one-upping someone else at backstabbing.

This is very true, that Waterdeep is not a good city and ZK is a lawful evil city, but there are a few things to point out about both. Waterdeep is a haunt for most good to neutral aligned temples and the evil ones are a bit harder to find, they're in hiding in the game. Namely the only one I can think of is a temple for thieves and it makes sense for it to be hiding.

The main thing I want to point out is ZK. You are right that the assasins would kill an evil character just as equally as a good character. Evil is full of betrayal which lies in the difficulty of playing an evil character. However there is code in the game that certain players who worship certain deities will be attacked on sight. Lathander's worshipers are one of them. So for whatever "business" they may have they'd need to use the conceal command. That is unless this code was removed?

[Gwain]

I like to think we temper our roleplays with the ability to understand out of character that not everyone in the game will have a superior knowledge of realms lore or the ability to play out an rp to the utmost. Sometimes turning a blind eye towards something or taking the time to explain before condemning is better than outright punishing. Opinions vary, I see the Keep and Waterdeep as places where coin is king, however there are establishments inside them that relate to the strict guidelines of faith enemies and retribution.

[teepo]

I just want to make note again that the things I used were just minor examples and not concrete "this is how it is." The post was not about the nature of the cities, it's about the use of our code limitations in an In Character way.

[Gwain]

I think it all comes down to yourself, I used to believe in the mentality of protecting others from their own rp, but in the end the only thing that matters is how you choose to accept the code and that the only time you have ic any control over your peers is if you are in a position of authority rpwise with them. Otherwise you can only make suggestions and they have the choice of ignoring you unless you force the issue. It used to be the case that immortals and characters were very proactive in this respect, but it appears to have lessened over the years. I think nowadays we are more about fun and ooc we are far more forgiving. Its a better environment and we are richer for it in my opinion.

[teepo]

That's exactly what this post is, a suggestion. Clearly I'm no staff member or IMM and cannot change, force, and create rules for the game, and if I came off any other way I do apologize. However I did feel the need to voice the suggestion and thought it right to post it here.

[Gwain]

That's exactly what this post is, a suggestion. Clearly I'm no staff member or IMM and cannot change, force, and create rules for the game, and if I came off any other way I do apologize. However I did feel the need to voice the suggestion and thought it right to post it here.

Nor am I, I'm also posting my opinion. I welcome and encourage yours as it valid to discuss and go back and forth in the forums. Thanks.

[teepo]

Noted

[Kinni]

I actually really appreciate this post. FK is my first experience with the FR setting. I have since started reading the books and the like, but may have fallen on some bad habits from the OOC-code-wise knowledge. My characters should not expect everyone to be carting around a symbol! It's seems a little thing, but I actually really like it! I shouldn't automatically assume that I should be scrutinizing a person over in expectation of finding a symbol or some-such.

That also being said, I have a few characters without any faith alignment what-so-ever. It does get a bit frustrating when playing them, how others automatically assume they must be aligned with a faith and make it an awkward topic of conversation. As a player/character base, we are a bit faith-focused.

That being said, I feel that clerics should be a bit fanatical. Clerics are a strong class and are expected to come with certain RP-aspects of priestly-ness. All that power comes from their God/Goddess, you can't help but be a little obsessed, right? Then again, that's just an opinion and I still have more books to read!

[Aldren]

I agree pretty much wholly with Kinni's sentiments. If any of you have tried to get faithed by one of my FMs on a cleric, you understand the extreme, extreme, extreme amount of training and dedication and devotion it takes to prove yourself to your God (and Faith Manager). I find clerics should be the most difficult class to get faithed (second of which should be pages/squires, IMO) because of these clauses. You're expected and supposed to be the mortal tongue and hand of your God. If you can't prove some level of dedication and show yourself capable of comprehending the dogma, you should probably consider the idea of making a lay follower.

This entire thread is well stated and I support most of what's been suggested. Good observations all around, folks.

[teepo]

You're both absolutely right about the Priest/Holy Classes. Their class is solely focused on faith, meaning their professions are toward their religion solely. So yes they should be a bit, if not very obsessed with their religion. Not always to the point of crazy..well..depending on the deity, but they should have the mentality where they should almost always be "on."