features for visually impaired players

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faylen
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features for visually impaired players

Post by faylen » Fri Oct 17, 2014 12:46 am

Hi all,

First, I hope you will all forgive me for any repeats. I'm a new player to the game and going through all of the messages on existing forums can be overwhelming at best. But on to the subject of my post.

I'm very much enjoying FK so far. I have, however, run into a couple of frustrations as a totally blind player using text to speech software to play. Yes, this is doable, and yes, it's done fairly often in fact. Many of us love muds because they are all text and therefore, usually easy to work with.

The two major things I have noted so far are colors to show what spells are ready to be cast, and a persistent map in the wilderness.

My first character is a warrior, and when I first brought her into the wilderness I discovered that, while there was no map in the city, there suddenly was int he wilderness and there was no way to disable it that I could find. As a result, before the available exits I would get a string of letters that meant nothing to me. I should note here that I am not using the vt100 interface, and I'm not sure how useable it would be. If there could be a toggle to turn off that map when not in vt100 mode, that would be wonderful.

My second character is a wizard, and so far everything appears to be working except that, when looking at the list under the mem command, there is no way to know which spells are ready and which aren't. Since I'm unable to see color, that method alone doesn't work for me. I'm aware that there are messages when the spell becomes ready, and i could likely script it, but I'm trying to think ahead to other future players too. Perhaps a simple solution would be the ability to add the 'ready' argument to mem and it would only show the spells that are currently ready for casting. That would eliminate the need for readjusting the entire display of the command to give some kind of textual tag. For that matter, mem ready wouldn't even need to be fancy, a simple list, one spell per line, would work just fine. If we want to know the spell level or whatever else we can just use the regular mem display.

Thanks for any consideration of these things. As I said, so far I'm loving the game.
dolifer

Re: features for visually impaired players

Post by dolifer » Fri Oct 17, 2014 2:55 am

I think I might be able to help you out a bit.

As for the VT interface, I wouldn't even bother trying it. I've tried, and my screen reader only got a bunch of garbled nonsense that just made it impossible to play. Granted, all screen readers are different, but I'm not sure there would be much improvement from product to product.

The wilderness map can actually be very helpful if your screen reader is able to read a specific line of text letter by letter. There is a help file that tells you what each symbol means. It does take a while to find what you're looking for on the map, but I've found it helpful, and useable with a little playing around.

Finally, is your screen reader able to distinguish colors? I'd suppose not, since you asked the question about the mem list... I use JAWS, which can be made to announce the color of foreground and background text. If your screen reader cannot do colors, though, I'm afraid I'm not sure how to help you out with that one... I'd suggest to try memorizing your list of spells and keeping track of what you use, but that list is quicly going to grow quite large, so that's not really doable...

I hope this helps, even a little. If I can help you with anything else related to screen readers and such, feel free to PM me. :)
dolifer

Re: features for visually impaired players

Post by dolifer » Fri Oct 17, 2014 3:12 am

As an aside...

I've been meaning to post a suggestion about this for a while now... I'm not very familiar with how MUDs work under the hood, so to speak, so I'm not sure whether this is even possible.

I use a rather large set of sound triggers and such to ensure that I don't miss things as they come up, but I think this could be much better and easier for users if the MUD sent its own sounds. I realize this would be helpful to more than just visually impaired players, but it's especially helpful to them, I think. Again, I don't know how possible this is, but I think it would help out a lot, as newer users wouldn't need to spend tons of time trying to figure out how to set up triggers correctly and so on. Plus, potentially, the MUD could send sounds much more entertaining than the simple beeps and boops most players use... :D

Just a thought...
faylen
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Re: features for visually impaired players

Post by faylen » Fri Oct 17, 2014 3:30 am

I'll have to play around with understanding the map, but I usually just use the exits command. Either way, a toggle to turn it on or off could still be helpful, I think. That way, we could turn it on if we want it, but not have it rattling off nonsense when we don't.

As for the mem command, I also use jaws, which can distinguish color. However I also use vipmud as my client, which, while it can be made to tag colors, that seems to make it a bit unstable so I would rather not use it. I'm hoping that the mem ready command, or something similar, might be an easy implementation that the admins would consider. Until then, or if not, I'll just have to use the trial and error method that I've been using so far, i.e. try to cast and it will either cast or it won't. Clunky, but doable.

In reference to your question about the mud sending sounds, there is a protocol called mxp which can do this and some muds use it. I don't know about implementation, but my impression is that it isn't trivial. Even if it was implemented though, I don't think vipmud is set up to take advantage of the protocol, though other clients such as mushclient probably are.

Thanks for the tips. Glad that I and my roommate aren't the only VI players here!
tiyari
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Re: features for visually impaired players

Post by tiyari » Tue Nov 04, 2014 7:49 pm

Just throwing some things out there.
I, too, am new to FK, and I'm loving it. I still have loads of questions, and also lots of ideas. For this topic, here are a few of both.

1. Would it be possible to please toggle prompt to only show when a command like "p" is typed, hp, etc? Right now, I have prompt always off, and I resort to typing group to see my hp and mv. A little cumbersome when I have people with me, or just need to do a quick check.

2. Would it be possible to have certain things in score rearranged? The tables read left-to-right, then left-to-right on the line below the first, and so on. This means I see one stat, then a bunch of numbers I don't understand, then the same thing on the next line.
I hope this wouldn't be too difficult. I'd be willing to reformat it in a way that I think could be helpful for visually impaired players if it would help any sighted person to see how we need things displayed.

I don't expect the whole game to be revamped. This is not a come in and conquer. But there are a few things that I personally would love to have better access to.

With score, perhaps three commands. One for carry weight, hours online, level. One for stats, one for bonuses or whatnot. Maybe minions with the level, hours online, etc.
The trouble is, if I want to see one thing, like how much I'm hauling around, I have to wade through a lot of stuff, even while using a backwards find. If I'm with a group, forget it. It's always slower to read orally than it is by hand (braille) or visually (print). Always. Even the fastest screen reader user will likely attest to this.

3. There are several places in which colors to indicate various things is a problem. Not as much for warriors as for spellcasters, but I think I remember reading something the other day that was not spell lists like Faylen wrote about. I echo her request for something more usuable.

4. Concern. I have had loads of fun looking around at all the descriptions and places where art is displayed. The art, however, is all in ascii. This means I cannot enjoy it--it's just a string of symbols, not a picture the screen reader has a hope of interpreting.
Question: Do paintings/drawings/statue descriptions have to be ascii art, or could there be, for others' enjoyment, described items or paintings? Say one of us had a character who painted. I can't do ascii art, but I love writing up descriptions for things. Would that be allowed?

5. Exits and wading through text.
Would it be possible to put exits at the bottom of the room name, desc, etc? I can't speak for other players, but for me, walking into a room and hearing the cut-off room names that border the one I am in, then the room name, is a lot. It slows me down. If I walk into a room, I need to know right away if there is a mob in it, in case I am attacked. There are ways around some of this, but they do slow me down a lot. Sometimes, I feel like telling every single player I meet why I'm so slow. That gets awkward, because then people want to ask me a million questions about how I do this or that, how long I've been blind, etc. They are all fair questions I have no problem answering, but not in the midst of moving around, fighting, and especially RP. I'm here to focus on the game. I can answer any questions later.
My thought is, perhaps a toggle system where you could leave the exits and everything as they are, change them so it goes room name, room desc, items, mobs, exits, or any other order arrangement of those things.
I am so grateful that there is a brief option, or whatever FK's equivalent is. It is tremendously helpful not to read room descs every time I move to the next room.

All of these things I see not just helping us, but any and all players who might find them useful--blind, sighted, those who just want things layed out in a different format.

My concern with the map in the wilderness is this: some people are very directionally challenged, and some blind people have a hard time figuring out how to move around in real-life. A string of fffppp etc will only confuse them. It also makes reading descriptions very difficult.
I think the map is a wonderful idea, and if I could see it, I'd love the usability it'd provide. I think it's a really cool concept. But as it is, I have to read line by line, and look through each of the nine to see if there are either a question mark ? or an at sign ? or the vertical bar |. This, for me, takes a minute or more, and it's exhausting to try to wade through. Some may enjoy the puzzle, and sometimes I have. But for the most part, when I'm in the wilderness, I want to move quickly and know what I'm coming upon in terms of custom exits.

I'd like to suggest one more thing for now:
a way of making the exits in a room read like this, north, northeast, east, all the way counterclockwise, custom exit at the end. If someone would like more info, they can use the exits command and see room names.
Maybe something in the room like, "There is a path leading into the hills." It wouldn't be in the exits, but tacked onto the end of the room name and desc, on its own line, if there is a custom exit.

Phew. Sorry for the long post. I want to thank you guys again for the game, and being willing to read the suggestions, ideas, and bugs that we players spam you with. :)
Xryon
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Re: features for visually impaired players

Post by Xryon » Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:14 pm

My time is limited at the moment, so this is going to be a short response. Didn't want to forget about it and not respond at all, though, so take what you will.

I am currently, much more slowly than I'd like, working on some things for the blind playerbase. I'm not a coder for the game, so my methods would be done via Mud-client. Namely, I'm currently experimenting with Mushclient.

Prompt can actually be handled via your client entirely. Haven't messed with it yet, but I'll fool around with it and try to find a less aggravating solution for you.

What I'm thinking for Score might sound a litte unwieldly, but I think it'll work: instead of pulling up the in-game sheet, I'll try and see if I can create a sub-window table that will list your score sheet in a line-by-line manner. Should cause less issues with the screen reader.

Without specific examples, my best recommendation for colors is a trigger that will turn colored text into something like !text! so that it still catches your attention. I can work with you on how to do that if you want.

Rearranging the order of things displayed, like room names versus description, should also be possible. I'll get back to you.

My next project after I finish with the spell list and the suggestions that came from that thread is the map. This is going to be annoying for you, but I need to do it in order to illustrate what I'm working on.

Basically, I'm trying to set up a range-variable command for the blind players, that will translate the in-game map to something useable. Currently, it displays like

ppppp
fffhhH
ss@dd
sssss
sssss

What I am trying to make happen is that you type, say, 'mapread 1' and it displays all room types within 1 step. So, you would get a sub-window that says:
1North: hills
1Northwest: forest
1West: sea
etc.

Once I get this down, I'm going to make it work with various numbers, and a 'max', that will show step directions to all visible rooms.

Yes, that was the short response. Basically, I'm working to help out, I'm just busy and slow. I'll keep everyone updated as each part plays out.
tiyari
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Re: features for visually impaired players

Post by tiyari » Wed Nov 05, 2014 12:11 am

Wow!
That sounds awesome, every bit of it!

Mushclient is wonderful.

Unrelated, but do you know if it's possible to, say, have two worlds open at the same time, or if I'd have to ave two instances of the client up?

Thank you so, so much for working on anything at all in this. Whether it's gameside or clientside or both, I think changes will be awesome.

One thing. When doing any type of plugins, don't make the whole screen rewrite. That screws the whole screen reader thing up like you would not even believe.

Faylen may be able to help more with that--she knows more about some of this than I do :)
Xryon
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Re: features for visually impaired players

Post by Xryon » Wed Nov 05, 2014 12:16 am

It is. If you have a world open, and you go to 'new connection,' it should open a separate world. Can swap between with Ctrl + Tab
tiyari
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Re: features for visually impaired players

Post by tiyari » Wed Nov 05, 2014 12:38 am

If this is the wrong pla for this, I'm sorry.
I want to ask if someone could help me with understanding a table in-game that I've looked at both in-game and on the website.

Classes allowed for the various races. It's a bunch of letters, and it completely baffles me.

Could someone please translate it for me, and so I could share it with any others who are lost by the shorthand?

Just something like:

Human: no restrictions
Elf: <class/s> not allowed

I hope those can be written in-game sometime, or at least, available in an alternate format somewhere.

Thanks.
Xryon
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Re: features for visually impaired players

Post by Xryon » Wed Nov 05, 2014 1:36 am

Here we go.

Gold Dwarf: 50 Kismet
Classes Allowed: Fighter, Cleric, Thief, Conjurer, Enchanter, Invoker, Mage
Restricted: Abjurer, Necromancer, Transmuter
Application Only: Bard
Still to come: Illusionist
Can't be: Ranger, Paladin, Druid

Shield Dwarf: 0 Cost
Classes same as Gold Dwarf

Drow: 200 Kismet
Classes Allowed: Fighter, Thief, Conjurer, Illusionist, Invoker, Mage, Necromancer
Restricted: Cleric
Application Only: Bard
Still to come: Abjurer, Enchanter, Transmuter
Can't be: Ranger, Paladin, Druid

Moon Elf: 0 Cost
Classes Allowed: Fighter, Cleric, Thief, Conjurer, Enchanter, Invoker, Mage
Restricted: Ranger, Druid, Abjurer, Necromancer, Transmuter
Application Only: Paladin, Bard
Still to come: Illusionist
Can't be: No Exclusions

Sun Elf: 150 Kismet
Classes same as Moon elf

Wood Elf: 200 Kismet
Classes same as Moon Elf

Wild Elf: 100 Kismet
Classes Allowed: Fighter, Cleric, Thief, Conjurer, Enchanter, Invoker, Mage
Restricted: Ranger, Druid, Abjurer, Necromancer, Transmuter
Application Only: Bard
Still to come: Illusionist
Can't be: Paladin

Forest Gnome: 100 Kismet
Classes Allowed: Fighter, Cleric, Thief, Conjurer, Enchanter, Illusionist, Invoker, Mage
Restricted: Ranger, Druid, Abjurer, Necromancer, Transmuter
Application Only: Bard
Can't be: Paladin

Rock Gnome: 0 Cost
Classes Allowed: Fighter, Cleric, Thief, Conjurer, Enchanter, Illusionist, Invoker, Mage
Restricted: Abjurer, Necromancer, Transmuter
Application Only: Bard
Can't be: Ranger, Paladin, Druid

Half-Elf: 0 Cost
Classes Allowed: Fighter, Cleric, Thief, Conjurer, Enchanter, Invoker, Mage
Restricted: Ranger, Druid, Abjurer, Necromancer, Transmuter
Application Only: Paladin, Bard
Still to come: Illusionist
Can't be: No exclusions

Half-Drow: 200 Kismet
Classes Allowed: Fighter, Cleric, Thief, Conjurer, enchanter, Illusionist, Invoker
Restricted: Abjurer, Necromancer, Transmuter
Application Only: Bard
Still to come: Illusionist
Can't be: Ranger, Paladin, Druid

(Will continue with the remaining races shortly.)
Xryon
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Re: features for visually impaired players

Post by Xryon » Wed Nov 05, 2014 2:03 am

Continuing.

Ghostwise Halfling: 50 Kismet
Classes Allowed: Fighter, Cleric, Thief, Conjurer, Enchanter, Invoker, Mage
Restricted: Druid, Abjurer, Necromancer, Transmuter
Application Only: Bard
Still to come: Illusionist
Can't be: Ranger, Paladin

Lightfoot Halfling: 0 Cost
Classes same as Ghostwise

Strongheart: 200 Kismet
Same as Ghostwise, but cannot be Druid

Human: 0 Cost
Classes Allowed: Fighter, Cleric, Druid, Thief, Conjurer, Enchanter, Invoker, mage
Restricted: Ranger, Paladin, Abjurer, Necromancer, Transmuter
Application Only: Bard
Still to come: Illusionist

Grey Orc: 200 Kismet
Classes Allowed: Fighter, Cleric, Thief, Conjurer, Enchanter, Invoker, Mage
Restricted: Abjurer, Necromancer, Transmuter
Application Only: Bard
Still to come: Illusionist
Can't be: Ranger, Paladin, Druid

Half-Orc: 50 Kismet
Classes same as Grey Orc

Mountain Orc: 200 Kismet
Classes same as Grey orc

Goblin: 200 Kismet
Classes same as Grey Orc

Aasimar: 700 Kismet
Classes Allowed: Fighter, Cleric, Thief, Conjurer, Enchanter, Invoker, Mage
Restricted: Paladin, Abjurer, Necromancer, Transmuter
Application Only: Bard
Still to come: Illusionist
Can't be: Ranger, Druid

All Genasi: 900 Kismet
Classes Allowed: Fighter, Cleric, Thief, Conjurer, Enchanter, Invoker, Mage
Restricted: Abjurer, Necromancer, Transmuter, Earth Genasi only: Druid
Application Only: Bard
Still to come: Illusionist
Can't be: Ranger, Paladin, Druid (except Earth Genasi)

Tiefling: 700 Kismet
Classes same as Genasi; cannot be Druid
dolifer

Re: features for visually impaired players

Post by dolifer » Wed Nov 05, 2014 2:42 pm

Just wanna say... Xryon is amazing. :D
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Re: features for visually impaired players

Post by Alitar » Thu Nov 06, 2014 5:18 am

I agree, I've been reading this thread since the beginning and I must say, thank you Xryon. Truly. While your help doesn't impact me directly it is absolutely setting the perfect example for how players can go above and beyond to help one another. You're awesome! Hope to see you in game.
"The noir hero is a knight in blood caked armour. He's dirty and he does his best to deny the fact that he's a hero the whole time."
~Frank Miller
Xryon
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Re: features for visually impaired players

Post by Xryon » Thu Nov 06, 2014 4:43 pm

This game brought me a lot of enjoyment, for many years. I just want to ensure everyone has the opportunity to enjoy it as much as I did.

I don't think it exists anymore, but working on a Mud specifically designed for visually impaired players (6Dragons, I think it was called) gave me a much better appreciation for the troubles they face. Happy to help however I can, though that goes for both visually impaired players and those who are not. If I had the time, I'd be trying to build some things here, which was always my forte. Alas, 18+ credits a semester (12 for summer) and a family take up a lot of my time and energy. This is something I can largely develop on my phone, so it's a bit easier.

If anyone has any functionality they'd like to test the feasibility of, let me know. I can't promise I'll have an answer, but we can probably figure it out.
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