Clerics Versus Warriors

[Ungtar]

I've got both but the reality is that I feel my warrior is much, much weaker than my cleric.

I still have 6 stat points and a bunch of feats I haven't allocated on the warrior, so maybe that's the difference? Or is it that my warrior just hasn't mastered all his defensive skills yet (parry, shieldwork, dodge)?

Advice is appreciated.

[Hrosskell]

Clerics start on the mediocre side leaning towards weak--it took me a while to grind to their powerspike levels on my most recent project, where-as fighters start with about all they need: good str and con grants instantly the ability to smash faces. As the game goes on, clerics out-scale the fighter with the acquisition of powerful spells. This evens out in the midgame as its easier to skill a fighter than a cleric, but time is still on the cleric's side--similar hours on both will yield a tougher cleric. I think a lot of power is currently tied to stoneskin and the defensive casting option, which quite a handful of clerics have access to through domains.

This is a classic D&D issue, not just FK's own. I think little foresight in the amazing utility of a spellcaster led to their costs of power (rare components/teachers) being more trivial than anticipated in the original tabletop format; the focuses can be scryed with relatively little difficulty and the teachers moved to with ease both in FK and D&D games.

All that being said, and despite many years of struggling for fighters on this forum and in game, I can say that I've accepted it and am comfortable with it. There is a freedom in playing a fighter--in the mechanical aspect and the roleplay side--that clerics simply cannot afford. A missing component will ruin an entire adventure; a small point of dogma may destroy a relationship. The fighter isn't necessarily tasked with these stumbling blocks and offers a more accessible, exciting, and challenging play experience.

[Ungtar]

Very good points.

I think my warrior synergizes very well with groups and then he has all the utility he needs, but it's solo where he pales.

So what I tend to do is drag him out when I'm wanting company and drag out the caster when I'm in the mood for just being alone, or the time of day doesn't lend itself to companionship, or whatever.

[Dranso]

Getting to level 50 is one thing, but being good at level 50 is another. A good level 50 character in any class/guild will give any other good level 50 a run for their money.

[Aysa]

For me... this question is the difference between ROLL play and ROLE play. Mind you, I have not played a fighter so I don't know all the trials and tribulations that come with playing that class. It would depend on how determine strength -- are you looking to see who can deliver the most damage in a single hit in a repeated fashion? I would consider my priestess to be quite "strong" though she's not geared for being a "whirling dervish". She may have to use strategy than mere brute force to win a fight.

[Ungtar]

For me... this question is the difference between ROLL play and ROLE play. Mind you, I have not played a fighter so I don't know all the trials and tribulations that come with playing that class. It would depend on how determine strength -- are you looking to see who can deliver the most damage in a single hit in a repeated fashion? I would consider my priestess to be quite "strong" though she's not geared for being a "whirling dervish". She may have to use strategy than mere brute force to win a fight.

Yeah, I always hear comments like that ... but the bottom line is that everyone would rather play Luke Skywalker as a Jedi, not a fresh-off-the-farm nobody. So that's why we get levels.

Mathematically, a warrior will always beat a cleric on a per-round damage basis, but a cleric is going to have much more utility and be able to have a repeatable performance for fight after fight after fight. The cleric also has mechanisms by which to extract themselves from a fight gone bad, or when they've been swarmed that a fighter doesn't easily have.

There are potions in the game, I suppose, but I don't see many of them floating around and dropping 30 plat on a potion of "cure light" isn't great. A cleric can also maintain "in the field" rather indefinitely, creating their own food, making their own water, and mending their gear with much greater ease than a warrior can.

My conclusion is that fighters are for the group game where clerics can be for either solo or for grouping. This isn't a roleplay issue. Particularly not when you can see many clerics roleplayed as a warrior with spells, or warriors roleplayed with as much theological gravitas as the loftiest priest.

Just to pull out one example ... a warrior with 18 strength is pretty stellar. Going to town and rocking some goblin heads. He studies long and hard to master his weapon, maybe does a lot of quests to pick up a +1 weapon and he's feeling pretty awesome.

Superior to a cleric, right? Well, at level 6 a cleric picks up "bulls strength" and can rocket their 18 strength up to 22 with the very first cast, now having a better hit roll and damage than the high end warrior.

Well, it's balanced you might think by clerics having to memorize spells and frequently sit to meditate. However the reality is that I can keep up the killing with mine for as long as I can normally sit still and then sit down and meditate while I grab a fresh cup of coffee and hit the bathroom.

There are some awesome fighters out there who are just beating things down, and I have seen them do it ... but I haven't yet figured out HOW they do it. I think part of it is that they are old players with magical gear out the wazoo, but maybe also high skill levels? Don't know. I'd certainly like to figure out how to make my warrior a bit more boooyaaa. I love my warrior, but I can't hardly play him without missing all the fun features that my cleric-type has. Even things as simple as chugging a drink of water and finding your waterskin empty is a demotivator.

[Tyeslan]

The skill levels and time to it took to get them to GM are what you see out there bashing peoples faces in. A level 50 with halfway skills isn't going to do much. A level 50 with all the skills GM(mostly the attacks, important skills) are going to be the ones that rock socks off. It makes a huge difference spending time levelling those skills, and pacing to fifty. Though what I have found true with myself is that some of us don't have the patience to do the tedious killing of mobs day in, and out, for hours on end to achieve the level of greatness.

[Ungtar]

The skill levels and time to it took to get them to GM are what you see out there bashing peoples faces in. A level 50 with halfway skills isn't going to do much. A level 50 with all the skills GM(mostly the attacks, important skills) are going to be the ones that rock socks off. It makes a huge difference spending time levelling those skills, and pacing to fifty. Though what I have found true with myself is that some of us don't have the patience to do the tedious killing of mobs day in, and out, for hours on end to achieve the level of greatness.

That must be a big part of it. When I was maybe level 20, I saw this other warrior in action. Hate to name names, but it was SETHRIN ...

He beat the tar out of some wyverns like they were wolf cubs. Now, much later, I'm closing slowly on 50 and I have trouble with all sorts of things still and I keep wondering I suddenly get all tough like that. My individual weapon skill is very high, almost grandmaster, but the other skills are still pretty far behind.

[Aysa]

Yeah, I always hear comments like that ... but the bottom line is that everyone would rather play Luke Skywalker as a Jedi, not a fresh-off-the-farm nobody. So that's why we get levels.

This isn't about Luke from Episode 4 vs Luke from Episode 6. This is who would you rather play? Qui-Gon Jinn, Obiwan Kenobie Episode 3, Mace Windu?

Yea, I'd rather play a Level 50 PC over a Level 1 PC. But I'm not going to worry about do I have the "best" Level 50 character. When you talk about comparing one PC over another, you're now ranking the Level 50s. I'm suggesting that you don't do that. Even the comparison of a warrior with 18 STR versus a cleric with 18 STR using Bulls Strength... that's a "min/max" attitude to take, which leads to ROLL play. Sure, I could role play that my cleric is a war priest but the foundation is based on the roll of a die.

A level 50 priest that specialized in a quarterstaff and the stun skill so he can make his opponents submit and wake up to "rethink their lives" is just as strong as a a Loviatar priest that wishes to inflict as much pain as possible. One will be geared towards delivering killer killing blows. The other, not so much. But both are strong. That's what I mean by role play. A warrior that has a code of honor (only fights left handed against weaker opponents -- thank you Princess Bride) is just as powerful as the Orc leader.

Anyway, that's my two cents.

[Ungtar]

This isn't about Luke from Episode 4 vs Luke from Episode 6. This is who would you rather play? Qui-Gon Jinn, Obiwan Kenobie Episode 3, Mace Windu?

Yoda. Totally Yoda.

[Gwain]

I spent at least 9 years building my cleric, in that time the game has changed at least three times, the first was the introduction of the current armour layering system which curtailed the layering of power armour and/magic devices to a degree and stopped min-maxing. The Second was the introduction of various properly sourced and coded monster races which increased variety and the challenge associated in game and the third was the incorporation of player saves and affects based on stats, defense and saves. Each time I had to vary my character to adjust, either by buying and wearing actual armours, training skills or taking the time to create strategies to survive. Its actually quite telling when you look at it. Formidable fighters, clerics, and rogues that have been away from the game for more than four years have an alpine curve to deal with now, either the armour they wore is weaker, the magic items they had are depowered or the skills associated with their guilds do not let them adventure as they once did. It usually takes a bit of time to adjust either way. I've noticed that wizards tend to adjust a bit better when they return from prolonged absence mostly because they've not changed much in design or build, they rely on spells over physical armour and are usually tactically sound because it takes some strategy to succeed with them.

As for fighters vs clerics? Well a fighter can pull their stats up to a point where they naturally have boons that a cleric would need to cast on themselves to have for a temporary time, clerics can heal themselves or others. Fighters have access to many more feats and can place stats into areas that buff them up over areas that can help them with spells. I think there is a balance at the highest levels, between the two, its not as apparent in some instances but its there.

The thing I don't consider is pvp, the reason is, I don't build for it, I don't look for it. I find that building or comparing classes for it is unwise, unless you are constantly embroiled in pvp there is no cause for creating specific chars bent on beating other chars. I'd focus on either rp or builds for adventure. Eventually after several years they begin to merge into one and the same.

[Ungtar]

Yeah, I can't really build for pvp. I don't really do pvp. I came from a heavily pvp focused mud previously but I've found that between my age and slowing reactions and my loss of vision (can't read as well) that I really don't do well at it. Pvp would never be my concern.

Thinking about it, I suppose it's just really the utility of clerics (druids) that I prefer. It's not a power thing so much. I played my warrior a bit with a cleric friend this morning and as a team we're pretty tough, but there's a whole lot of utility I just miss without magic.

Utility = power = fun.

A preference thing.

[Ungtar]

Oh, to add ... other roleplay oriented muds I've played have not had as extensive coding support for magic, so that's probably part of the allure for me.

On one I played a druid for 6 years and they had no magic behind a couple of healing spells actually coded for them. It was crazy to show up here and see that there was actual game stuff behind it. I almost wet myself with excitement.