Reduced training speed with heavier armour discussion

[Solaghar]

I'd like to take a moment to raise the question of a coded system here that has been told to me and I have experienced somewhat personally though can't honestly verify since I can't see the code, that of increased training rates while wearing lighter armor.

As it has been explained to me, the lighter your armor, the faster you train in any skill, be it dodge which makes sense, or double-edged blades which makes less sense. To me, this seems to be bad for a few reasons. The first is that it simply doesn't make sense in terms of D&D rules... people are already punished for wearing heavier armour in lots of ways, reduced skills for thieves and warriors, inability to cast spells for mages, and reduced dex bonuses due to heavy armor. Training speed has to do with intelligence and some other factors, but why is someone who is training to use fighting skills or priest skills in heavier armor penalized for wearing heavy armor even further? Learning to use a skill in heavy armor is very much different than learning to use it in light armor, learning to fight in plate mail is very different than in studded leather, but isn't that why we have feat points applied to the armor type you want to use? To me it seems that it only opens up the door to people abusing the system by wearing armor that is lighter for training skills, then using heavier armor when it counts.

The only real argument for having longer training for heavier armor is that it makes it take longer for people who wear heavy armor to train, but that would be tantamount to saying that the classes are inbalanced to the point where it has been coded that certain members of the class who wear heavy armor will be penalized while those who don't, won't be penalized. Paladins and dwarves who wear their thick heavy armor are punished for wearing what is appropriate for them to wear in terms of RP, while Joe the neutral halfelf fighter who isn't bound by any particular RP guidelines can wear some nice scale mail and train quite a bit more quickly, and generally pay less for the armor too, until the day he gets his skills maxed out and then he might all of a sudden switch to heavy for it's added protection.

My only real question is if there is a reason that this is in place that I'm not seeing then that's fine, if the difference in training speed isn't that great then that's fine too. I'm also not suggesting everyone should wear heavy armor, but consider that as armor technology increased in times of medieval warfare, those who were best armored generally had a better chance of surviving than those who dedliberately chose to wear even less armor. This of course doesn't take into account magic, but still, there was a general progression from lighter to heavier armor throughout the ages until gunpowder made that obsolete. If you want to keep a variety of armors out there then maybe upping the allowable dex bonus or reducing the maximum dex bonus on lighter or heavier armors respectively would be a better way, but the way it works now it's like my heavy armor is much worse for learning how to use a weapon in that very same heavy armor than light armor.[/b]

[Argentia]

Well, I'm not not defending or opposing this in any way, but I wanted to propose a reason why this might be. Personally, I have never heard that training in heavy armour slows down learning, nor ever noticed it. ::shrug:: But I know to learn how to use a weapon depends on strength and dexterity. For example,

double-edged blades (str, dex) journeyman

Or somesuch. Wearing heavy armour lowers your dex. Maybe that is why it effects learning? Just an idea.

[Gwain]

Armour Proficiency Feat
=======================
This feat is the ability to be proficient with different weights of armour.
When you wear a type of armour with which you are NOT proficient you suffer
penalties to all skills that involve moving or casting. This feat can be
trained more than once. The first time you train you have the ability to
use light armour, the next time you have the ability to use medium weight
armour and the third and last time you train it you have the ability to use
heavy armour.

Some classes start out with the proficiency to certain levels and some guilds
will give this out automatically on joining.

The medium and heavy levels of this profiency require that you learn the
previous levels of proficiency.

Arcane spells will still fail with the wearing of heavy armour, however they
will not fail quite as much.

For some classes this is available automatically, otherwise others can gain it as they gain feat points. Heavy armour and skills that resound with it are strains on body and mind. I can see a thief sweating greatly in metal armour, his fingers slipping his picks jangling in the haevy and loud confines of his metal suit. I see the mage, trying to memorise a spell but burdened not in the glory of the weave but a suit of full plate so he cannot cast. I think of it as weaing your house on your back, making everything very difficult and take longer to do in exchange for the protection offerered.

[Solaghar]

For some classes this is available automatically, otherwise others can gain it as they gain feat points. Heavy armour and skills that resound with it are strains on body and mind. I can see a thief sweating greatly in metal armour, his fingers slipping his picks jangling in the haevy and loud confines of his metal suit. I see the mage, trying to memorise a spell but burdened not in the glory of the weave but a suit of full plate so he cannot cast. I think of it as weaing your house on your back, making everything very difficult and take longer to do in exchange for the protection offerered.

But that's the reason that thieves skills are reduced based on what type of armor they are wearing. Thieves wearing anything bigger than leather armors suffer skills reductions, I don't have the tables in front of me but they are significant and grow with the weight of the armor. The same goes for mages, they don't wear armor like that because wearing armor disrupts magical casting ability, they've already got great reasons not to wear armor, they can't cast spells. And for those reasons, you're not going to often see mages or thieves dressed like that unless they have a very good reason. The impetus for not wearing these armors based on your class is already there, I just wonder what the point is of impeding the progress of the warriors who do use heavy armor.

If you're trying to learn how to use skills in that heavy armor then it makes little sense that people can dress in light armor for training and then switch to heavy armor to use the skills while people who use heavy armor all the time are penalized for it. If you really wanted to be fair you might say that training in heavy armors takes more effort, but that all skills train differently based on what type of armor you are wearing, so that if you trained your sword in light armor to grandmaster, then you put on a suit of full plate, you wouldn't be a grandmaster anymore, you'd have to train it up to a higher level while using heavy armor since the fighting styles would be very different.

[Timaeus]

Among the factors for increasing a skill, spell etc armor plays no direct part.

Some skills may fail or succeed fewer times because of armor hindrances even if you are fully proficient in heavy armor with the proper feats. You will, for example, dodge fewer attacks while in heavy armor than light armor thus you will not have as many chances at a marginal skill increase. Even if you fail a skill attempt you can get a marginal increase in your skill level but your chance of increase towards the next skill level is less than if you had succeeded in the skill attempt.

[Legault]

Well, This is somewhat going off-topic, but in my opinion, I think that the armor proficiency feat should NOT be trainable to certain classes or guilds. Such as my ranger, I got curious, and trained it. Now, my Ranger can wear platemail. But, can anyone really picture a ranger stalking a follower of Loviatar who as entered a forest in full plate? It would sound something like "an airplane trying to land with no landing gear in a wooded forest"(Ketlic's quote). And with wizards, I can see an inexperienced wizard training that a few times, and not casting anything, just killing and training using platemail.

Ps. Sorry, but this was EXTREMLY off topic, but because of the thing on it earlier on this Topic, I thought I would post it. Thanks- Legault

[Jadom]

So....the wiz's should make changes to the code for the sole purpose of preventing you from doing something silly IC?

There are a world of good reasons for a wizard not to muck about in plate armour, but their is nothing that makes them unable to do so if they choose, same thing for rangers.

[Gwain]

Just remember to always ask yourself, is what I am doing or can I do this in character for my player character? Is this something he or she would do or is it something that could not be possible ic? Just rationalize something and because you may have gotten it, it does not mean you have to use it. In the end it's up to your class and how you rp.