Weapon Specialization and GM Skills

[Levine]

You want to slow things down, then tie the leveling with a kismet cost.

You know what? I actually think this is a very good idea. Does anyone else?

-gissy

[Exer]

Now we do have alot of areas, and a massive amount of quests in the game. Kismet is based on the account, so I cant see how it can be used to slow down a specific character. Glory however is based on the character.

While I tend to agree on this, keep in mind that glory is going to be much tougher to get by for certain races. Orcs and goblinoids for example, perhaps even centaurs. The solution, as you stated, is to start receiving glory again instead of kismet by the imms, for good RP. I would also hope that the glory would not be a cost but a required benchmark to proceed to the next lvl.

Tying kismet to char's development, though based on the player, would slow leveling over all. Maybe that's not such a bad thing. The only way I can't see this working too well is if a player has already a lvl 50 char (A), park them in MS and rack the kimset up for their new char (B). But, in return, this would just mean that RP is getting generated by (A).

Finally, the idea of getting more XP from skills and less from killing mobs, is good. Perhaps rewarding grouping even more then is currently done. The bigger the group the more bigger the multiplier?

[Dalvyn]

Requiring quest glory would not slow down twinks levelling up. I have some examples in mind of players who twink-levelled up and completed quests (for their rewards obviously).

Another option would perhaps be to require RP rewards. It could be that you have to be rewarded by someone (mortal or imm) to level up from 20 up to 25, then have to be rewarded by two different accounts to level up from 25 to 30, then rewarded by three different accounts from 30 to 35, and so on. It would for example mean that, if you are level 27 and have enough exp to get to level 28, you cannot train level till at least 2 different accounts have rewarded you since you turned 27.

Obviously, the system can still be abused... I can see people asking their friends on AIM / on the chat to reward their character so they can level up.

[Balek]

Another option would perhaps be to require RP rewards. It could be that you have to be rewarded by someone (mortal or imm) to level up from 20 up to 25, then have to be rewarded by two different accounts to level up from 25 to 30, then rewarded by three different accounts from 30 to 35, and so on. It would for example mean that, if you are level 27 and have enough exp to get to level 28, you cannot train level till at least 2 different accounts have rewarded you since you turned 27.

I think that's far too extreme. In the time I've been playing this game I've probably been rewarded 10 times by imms and maybe 10 times by players. Even if those were all on the same character (and they're not), that would leave me with one character of level 30. As it is, Balek would probably be level 20 (I don't think Balek has ever been rewarded for good RP), Sanin would probably be around level 25 or 26, and I might have a few more characters at level 21.

On the whole, I'd say that if this system were implimented immortals would need to reward more often. The simple fact is that the majority of non-newbie council players don't want to reward because it costs them kismet. I hate to declare that immortals would need to do more work, but I think that it's the reality of what this system would require.

[Glim]

The game is fine the way it is. You want to slow things down, then tie the leveling with a kismet cost. It's an easy way to slow things down and control how fast char's max.

I'm on the Kregor side of the fence on that one.

As for the idea of having only 2 GM weapons, though I think it's a good idea, 2 might be a little low on the scale. Would the same apply to mages and their spells?

As to mages, I would say no, because they already specialize by choosing a guild.

Perhaps solution would be requiring an hour requirment to level up? It always does seem a character is a twink when they are lvl 50 and under 100 hours. Another benefit of hours is that they are based on the character and not the account. Perhaps it could be 50 hours for every 20 levels? But then of course you have the problem with people idling to gain hours, but since there is a program on the game to log you out after idling for a long time, this wouldnt really be a problem.

Well, this topic feels like it straying a bit, but the two issues are related.

[Telk]

What about...
Level 1-10 Requires no hours
Level 10-20 Requires 50 hours
Level 20-30 Requires 150 hours
Level 30-40 Requires 300 hours
Level 40-50 Requires 400 hours

[Telk]

Granted I don't think hours would stop the twinks very much. But it would at least stop them from powerleveling to 50 with under 100 hours.

[Kregor]

If we step back into the good ole days in the beginnings of D&D, and to a lesser extent in modern tabletop (yes, I think it's easier to munchkin in 3E!) the reason characters in such a setting go up slowly and steadily is because The DM leads the chars on a quest, or a dungeon crawl, or an RP or whatever, and experience is doled out at the end of your say for a job well done.

While the MUD cannot be a matter of a DM watching and rewarding everyone by hand... no one can be everywhere in the MUD at once... the principal is the same when it comes to quests and RPs. Quests are supervised by the AI of the server, chars complete tasks A,B and C, and they are rewarded with experience and glory, if they complete D, they get an added bonus, and if they RP their day well in front of an IMM or a generous player, they can get rewarded yet again...

Now.... where is it that the MUD diverges from the old RPG principals of tabletop? Levelling.

In tabletop, there is no such thing as a player being able to go off between dungeon crawls and beat on randomly generated creatures for extra experience to level with. If one of my players were to come to me and say. "Oh, since we last played as a group, I used the random monster generator and gained four more levels." I would tear up their character sheet and make them roll up a new one.

When you distill it down to the essence, someone who develops their character by camping in areas bashing on mobs is not really doing any better than the thief char in another post building their steal skill by giving-stealing, giving-stealing, giving-stealing from a mob. And those who would flame me for saying that know it to be true. It's not RP, it's not even terribly IC, and is done solely for the purpose of gaining skills and levels faster.

It makes me question whether there should be official "levelling areas" in the game. When the MUD was small, with many fewer quests, I can see where the thought of a levelling area was a something characters used occaisionally just to be able to GET to lvl50. The presence of such areas and the open permission to use them freely is merely an invitation to camp out and get your training.

The way I see it, if the MUD truly wants to govern the rapid rise of characters in present times, it'll either have to add, or take away. Either add new restrictions, new requirements, etc. to rise in levels and skills, or simply take away the tools used to twink with in the first place: forbidding the use of any quest area solely for levelling, or simply removing the EXP per mob, and make the new rule EXP=quests + RP rewards + nothing else. The adding solution could prove unwieldy, or become ineffective as some find workarounds or loopholes. The taking away could well cause an uproar, particularly among the ones who consider powerlevelling ejoyable.

[Rhytania]

Hey all, a few thoughts of mine:

Back in my old table top days i ALWAYS stressed the fact that just becuase your EXP shows you can level doesnt mean you would. The lower levels of course id allow but after level 8 my players had to fight tooth and nail to level for the simple fact that is where the characters have a good enough feel of themselves to be held accountable for their actions. (*winks at Elwin). the twinks if we did have any always found themselves getting further and further away from the power curve and before they knew it they were trudging along at 8 or 9 while everyone else is in the teens. after a while once we had the twinkiness banished out of their system, we had really good rp from their on out, its just a matter of showing them another way.

Something that I propose is to make a level cap at lets say 35. after 35 make it takes a little morework on the pc's part to level, ie only NC can level you, or approve your level request. Since the NC are usually in positions of authority within the faiths/guilds no one should even be looking at a high level like that w/o ever not having met or being presented to the hierarchy within their faith/guild first. The NC can send them on quests, require certain things, arrange for RP interactions and basicall overlook their progress as it most probably would happen in FR anyway. After level 45 we can make it only imms themselves can approve/allow every leveling after that, since those levels are so high they would be probably having tea and cookies with their respectful diety anyway.

It might be a little weird to get use to at first but it does help insure that twinks dont get to a position if power w/o truely earning it, and it gives those that are in power/high positions a bit of control of how many people are running around at the higher levels, it also makes the higher levels more prestigious w/o having to create anymore.

[Micheal]

I do not know if Dalvyn knows this, but both of his suggustions about a) limiting the number of GM skills and b) making people RP for higher levels were both brought up during ( I guess ) phase 1 of FK MUD in early 2000. I think that the MUD has progressed to the point where such systems can be implemented. Through the (in my opinion) awe inspiring code work done by the coding team on weekends and weeknights this MUD has progressed beyond my expectations. The RP level is beyond a doubt progressed to near MUSH level. This MUD has matured to the point where it will not only not falter under these 2 changes but thrive.

Both the reward system and the feat system have made these two options, once pipe dreams, into something that can become a reality. I for one say lets take this step. Lets limit GM skills and lets limit leveling without RPing

[Elwin]

I like the accumulated hours idea for the simple fact that with the other ideas it pretty much requires the attention of an already weighed down Imm staff and newbie council. There are many times that I've had good RP with people and no one was around to see it, so should I be not allowed to level because no one was there to see my RP? I don't think I should, but that's up to other people than me. With the hours idea, at least it will slow down the twinks in the game to where they might actually have to learn to RP to have fun before they level, then they might like it. Who knows, maybe we'll have a game full of supremem RPers after a while. Well, you can always hope can't you?

[Lerytha]

Yes... I think that something does need to be done to stop the "twinks". However, and this is a mildly big "however", there is the issue about timezones. Now, sometimes people are not on when lots of imms are. Now, because we have such a dedicated playerbase, for me, there are only three hours in a day when there isn't anyone on. But that's just me, and just for my particular 12 hour span of time I can theoretically be online for.

So, as Elwin brought up, we should not solely limit it to RP. What if there is no-one to RP with? I have occasionally spent a day "levelling" as it were, only to then spend a month without killing anything. Whatever new system is put in (and I agree there should be one), there needs to be the flexibility to allow people who cannot RP with others the ability to progress with their character.

I hope that makes some sense.

[Gwain]

Don't forget that alot of people that spend the majority of their time rping are more concerned with the rp than the leveling. I have spent time alone rping and rping in other groups. I see nothing wrong with rewards for rping, but even if those were not present it would not hamper my rp. I rp for my enjoyment, wether I'm on lv 1 or lv 50. I don't know how effective it will be forcing people to rp for levels and exp. To me, rp is something that needs to come naturally. Though twinking might be an issue I think if you give people enough time and lead by example, they will eventaully start rping. Just give it time.

Idealism is like a rock; hard and full of minerals.

[Elenthis]

Well...the first thing I wanted to suggest was: Perhapse we should have more Imm-run quests based on RP rather than level? Not a flame, nor a demand/request for more quests, just an idea for shifting the basis of a quest.
Example:

What we have now is something like:The fountain spurts out baddies. High levels tell low-levels to run away and kill them. All is right again.

What I might like to see would be something like: Billy-bob the demon comes to waterdeep and DOESNT ATTACK using code. He makes it clear no one can hurt him and demands that he get this that and the other thing so he can become immortal. Players seek out whomever, or side with him depending. Players who seek out whomever find a list of things to take him off his high-pedistal and allow the guards to kill him. guards thank players of any-level and give out appropriate exp/money/items/glory/kismet depending.

Obviously rough, and obviously not the easiest, but just one of a billion ideas one might try.

~Elenthis.

[Kirkus]

Now I know this might sound crazy but what about adding a whole new level system. Don't take away the old but add another. It would be useful for the army stuff being discussed and for the prestige classes. A warrior could be a level 50 warrior and a level 1 soldier in the waterdeep watch. All levels could be quest based or rp based. So that level 1 soldier in the watch would have to guard the gates and patrol the city and do quests for the protection of waterdeep.


Gotta go to work, I will expand more on this idea arround midnight when I get home.

[Tretch]

I like the idea of limiting leveling and I like the style of basing it on hours on the char.

It is kind of like using kismet, but for the individual characters on the account.

Example, you need over 400 hours to progress past level 35 or something.

I think that could work well. Especially against twinks. I admit that I myself have a char that would be considered a twink. Most of the time I have no idea what I want to do with that character so I end up leveling. If you forced an amount of time needed on the character to pass certain levels, it would almost force RP.

Keeping the character online that much would actually make him not a twink at all. Even the most hardcore twink will get bored training and start wandering in search of others. OR, others will find them Being online that much makes it a matter of time


Jake

[Isolrem]

In another game there was the RP sheet, which was that at a time the character had to stop leveling and finish (and have an immortal accept) a background story, characteristics and personalties, etc. of the character.

[Glim]

Eh, my main peeve is having to get imm support or imm approval on a background or even an imm levelling you or something before you can level past a certain stage.

That in and of itself can be slow depending on your time zone, and I would think the staff has enough on their hands without such and I wouldnt be wanting for them to take out of their time that could be spent improving the game to have to deal with such issues.

[Nearraba]

Yes, agreeing with Glim. That would put too much stress on the moderators and staff. Sure it is a neat idea, but not at all worth the time. There are so many charaters in the game it would take forever.
((adding something))

Also as Sharni stated before, alot of good rp come along with fighting mobs and such. Going on adventures to kill things are what some faiths are about. But eventually along with the fighting comes the leveling, which you can choose to or not to do. Another way to look at it is, when you level it is like getting stronger.