This is going to be a pretty hefty suggestion, but the more I think about it, the more interesting it seems to me and the more I think it would do to help RP in the game. Right now, conflict based RP in the game is generally limited to players vs players and faiths vs faiths. Since the only way to resolve a lot of this conflict would be through PKilling, it 's not something that I think people like to take lightly. What I am going to propose I think would add a whole new dimension of RP to the game that generally doesn't exist for the average player, the conflicts between towns, cities, states and empires.
There would be a number of possible ways to work this out, and I think the biggest and most exciting one would be the addition of armies. Think of an army like a mob with a number of characteristics. The size of the army, the race composing it, the training level of it, the equipment of it, all of these would factor into the relative strengths of various armies. Armies would have an upkeep cost just like the employees in your dwelling. People who are accepted as leaders in their city, town, temple or dwelling would be able to train armies, to equip them, and to most imoportantly lead them into battle against rivals.
Armies from various cities could join together under various leaders to take common cause. Even temples, guilds, noble houses, organizations like the harpers and the zhentarim, they could all maintain their own armed forces, ready to call up when the time is right. A city's army would be supported by it's citizens. In this way, having a hometown would truly come to mean something, and maybe the idea of moving to a different city would be something that would be dealt with via code rather than anything else... to leave your city you'd have to pay a moving tax to your home city, then a registration tax in the city you wish to move to... When you move to a city, you'd be expected to pay a part of your income to that city's treasury, maybe in the form of bank fees that would actually support that city, maybe in some other tax, and of course through donations as well. You could also establish a system of coded ranks for each army organization, and PC players could strive to compete with one another for the highest ranks, moving up from a city watch lieutenant in Waterdeep to a Captain of the Guard to a General of Forces in control of the army along with the city leaders and others of high rank. The highest ranks might even be hero-worthy titles.
Armies would be based on a lot of things. For instance, a temple of Helm might maintain an army of 100 highly trained, well armored knights to be lead by a PC Paladin of Lathander. A city like Shadowdale might have 20 men-at-arms who are poorly trained and equipped who could be called up to defend the city from attack. A Drow noble house would maintain a few hundred warriors. A city like Waterdeep or Zhentil Keep would have many thousands of warriors.
This would introduce a whole new class of feats and eventually prestige classes like Leadership, General, etc... which would affect things like the training of armies, their morale when lead by your PC, etc. It should be fully possible to take your city's army out as a leader and to train them in some manner like drilling, in the same way that you might train your own PC, though not by killing mobs. An army would not follow you around like a pet while you levelled or anything like that. New classes of stores would come into play which would provide things like weapons, armor, food supplies for the entire army, and by adding these things you would affect the stats of the army, but not provide any actual coded items. Adding these things would add to the upkeep of the army, so it might be wise to maintain a well-trained but poorly equipped army in times of peace, then be ready to buy them new equipment and supplies when they need to go to war.
Something like this would give PCs a fantastic new array of titles and leadership positions to strive for. Whether you were the leader of your temple's small band of warriors, of Mithril Hall's Dwarven Battleragers, a troop of Elven Archers, you'd want to have your army in peak condition at all times, something to compete for, spend money on, win glory with, without resorting to any killing of PCs.
Strategic points could be coded throughout the game to represent small towns, ports and other things that medieval kingdoms would have wanted to control to gain access to taxes. Marching your army into one of these would allow control to be taken after a certain amount of time, and then some taxes might regularly flow into your city's treasury. Cities like Zhentil Keep and the Drow could become true aggressors without resorting to indiscriminate PKilling by taking over small towns, goblin raiding parties and Orcish hordes could become real threats to a city's livelihood by taking over your tax base and reducing the ability of your army to fight. Even crusades to far-off Maztica could become a reality, with the riches of far-off lands flowing back to the cities of the Sword Coast.
While I realize that the coding behind this would be relatively daunting, I think this sort of thing would add a whole new flavor to the game and would allow a flowering of an entirely new sort of RP within the game. Suddenly politics would matter. Good relations between cities would mean that you might support one another against your common enemies. Insulting others might cause a serious breach of the peace. Fighting between faiths might become a matter of groups of armed warrior-priests being lead out against their enemies to sack opposing temples. I think in terms of coding, it wouldn't even be that difficult when you think about it, just take some thought.
An army would be like a cross between a mob and a PC, with a file to save any changes in a bunch of base statistics which could just be modified base statistics. Strength could represent the number of troops. Wisdom their morale. Intelligence could represent training level. AC could represent their equipment level. Various feats and skills would allow players to gain bonuses of various types when leading their armies and directing them as to what to do. Relatively complex maneuvers such as doing an about face, an encircling maneuver, other tactical commands could be new skills, and the different maneuvers would give the armies temporarily corresponding bonuses and/or minuses.
Different races and faiths would have different statistics for their armies, an Elven army would perhaps have a smaller troop number but a much higher training and morale level than a human army that costs the same. A dwarven army might be much better equipped than average, while a goblin or orcish army might get double the troop numbers but suffer from low morale and poor equipment.
Anyway, at this point I am starting to lose focus on the main idea, but I am certain that there are a ton of people who would have great ideas about how something like this could be done, and most certainly would be willing to help with the coding and seeing how something like this could fit into the game as it's coded now without too much trouble and too many changes to the hard and softcode. But the more I think about the benefits that a system like this could have, the more exciting the idea is and the more interested in speculating I become. I'm sure it could come to pass though, if people with the skills and ideas chipped in and it might make this fantastic game even better as long as it's something the admins think has some merit, at least for discussion. I leave the pure feasibility of the system up to those who know the hardcode much better than I do.
Medieval Politics, Armies, Nobility... a grand suggestion
Some more ideas for an army...
Leading an army of the same race as you would give you a bonus to command, leading an army of a different race would give you a negative. Certain races that are particularly rare in overall terms like halfelves and such, would not really have armies.
An Army might also be a race of mob altogether, with code to ensure that armies can only go into combat with other armies, not with mobs or PCs.
Two PC generals might choose to combat along with their armies, and the fate of that combat, like the fate of leaders of armies in real life, could have morale affects on their armies.
Instituting armies seems like it would be relatively simple when compared to the idea of cities, temples, guilds, any organization which controls an army, to control territory outside of their city. I am not certain but it seems to me like the most reasonable way would be to allow flags to be set on rooms themselves. If you wanted to take over one of these points, a minor farm town or a river port, you would walk your army over to it and begin the command 'beseige' for instance. After a certain time, depending on the statistics set on the room and the statistics of your army, the city could be overrun, I'd say it should take no less than an hour though, and perhaps as much as a few RL hours, so that it would be something you'd have to plan in advance. As the seige continued, the army would slowly lose strength as it's forces were lost in the conflict.
Building things like wooden forts, stone castles... even out in the middle of nowhere, would allow you to have a defensible position for your army. Perhaps when you own that area by having a flag set on it, so if you want to stop an enemy's army, the best place to do it might be to occupy a fort along a road and stop them.
Oh, that's neat, different armies could gain bonuses or be able or unable to attack on different types of wilderness terrain. A human army might not be able to make much of an attack outside of plains or roads, while an Elven army would be perfectly at home in the forests, and a dwarven army would be able to cross mountains and hills with ease.
There are so many different things which could make this an amazing system, I'm just throwing out ideas... anyway, I need to sleep.
Leading an army of the same race as you would give you a bonus to command, leading an army of a different race would give you a negative. Certain races that are particularly rare in overall terms like halfelves and such, would not really have armies.
An Army might also be a race of mob altogether, with code to ensure that armies can only go into combat with other armies, not with mobs or PCs.
Two PC generals might choose to combat along with their armies, and the fate of that combat, like the fate of leaders of armies in real life, could have morale affects on their armies.
Instituting armies seems like it would be relatively simple when compared to the idea of cities, temples, guilds, any organization which controls an army, to control territory outside of their city. I am not certain but it seems to me like the most reasonable way would be to allow flags to be set on rooms themselves. If you wanted to take over one of these points, a minor farm town or a river port, you would walk your army over to it and begin the command 'beseige' for instance. After a certain time, depending on the statistics set on the room and the statistics of your army, the city could be overrun, I'd say it should take no less than an hour though, and perhaps as much as a few RL hours, so that it would be something you'd have to plan in advance. As the seige continued, the army would slowly lose strength as it's forces were lost in the conflict.
Building things like wooden forts, stone castles... even out in the middle of nowhere, would allow you to have a defensible position for your army. Perhaps when you own that area by having a flag set on it, so if you want to stop an enemy's army, the best place to do it might be to occupy a fort along a road and stop them.
Oh, that's neat, different armies could gain bonuses or be able or unable to attack on different types of wilderness terrain. A human army might not be able to make much of an attack outside of plains or roads, while an Elven army would be perfectly at home in the forests, and a dwarven army would be able to cross mountains and hills with ease.
There are so many different things which could make this an amazing system, I'm just throwing out ideas... anyway, I need to sleep.
I feel that to do this, one should require an application, or we'll be having stampedes all over the Realms.
Another thing.. Costs for the army should be slightly higher than that of hiring people for a dwelling or shop, should they not? However, if this is so, wouldn't an army cost a bomb(if there are many)?
Also, should there be a limit to the number of people in the single-class army, depending on the class? For example... fifteen for wizards, because they are rather powerful and most are able to attack from a distance(but wouldn't 15 be too little to be called an army?), etc.
And, if there is a limit, there should be a minimum requirement, depending on the class, also.
*has a habit of contradicting herself very much*
Sorry I can't think of anything more.. Brain stopped working after my exams.
-gissy
Another thing.. Costs for the army should be slightly higher than that of hiring people for a dwelling or shop, should they not? However, if this is so, wouldn't an army cost a bomb(if there are many)?
Also, should there be a limit to the number of people in the single-class army, depending on the class? For example... fifteen for wizards, because they are rather powerful and most are able to attack from a distance(but wouldn't 15 be too little to be called an army?), etc.
And, if there is a limit, there should be a minimum requirement, depending on the class, also.
*has a habit of contradicting herself very much*
Sorry I can't think of anything more.. Brain stopped working after my exams.
-gissy
Must I kill them
To make them lie still
To make them lie still
As much as I admire this idea, I cannot help but feel that it would not work on FK. Here, we concentrate on adventurers, and the way in which they affect the world around them. PK, whilst it might be a discouragement to many, does engage a lot of interesting RP, which rarely results in a total death.
Any massive wars, I think, should just be dealt with through IMM-run roleplay. For example, if an IMM sent an echo that the Zhentarim were preparing for war, the PCs would choose their sides. Then, an IMM would echo the "larger" war, whilst the PCs might take the active role as leaders and adventurers.
Because wars should be quite rare in the MUD, I think this is a decent system to run them. Having PCs in charge of their own armies seems a bit... much. I would prefer the coding effort to go towards new things that we need, rather than to code armies which can be dealt with through echoes and RP.
If, however, this idea is implemented, I would think it would have to involve kismet and/or glory to see who is able to control armies, and strict strict strict rules about how they are used.
A good idea, though.
Any massive wars, I think, should just be dealt with through IMM-run roleplay. For example, if an IMM sent an echo that the Zhentarim were preparing for war, the PCs would choose their sides. Then, an IMM would echo the "larger" war, whilst the PCs might take the active role as leaders and adventurers.
Because wars should be quite rare in the MUD, I think this is a decent system to run them. Having PCs in charge of their own armies seems a bit... much. I would prefer the coding effort to go towards new things that we need, rather than to code armies which can be dealt with through echoes and RP.
If, however, this idea is implemented, I would think it would have to involve kismet and/or glory to see who is able to control armies, and strict strict strict rules about how they are used.
A good idea, though.
If you have knowledge, let others light their candles with it.
--Sir Winston Churchill
"This place is boring, I'm gonna go eat whatever I can find laying on the ground"
-- Hoildric
Cacie asks Larethiel 'Did that air just bow to you?
--Sir Winston Churchill
"This place is boring, I'm gonna go eat whatever I can find laying on the ground"
-- Hoildric
Cacie asks Larethiel 'Did that air just bow to you?
Yes, this sounds like a different MUD concept to me. Not that I don't like the idea or have not wished and thought for the exact same thing it still would draw the focus away from the individual adventurer and small group adventurer to the point where it would split the participation of the MUD and diminish the effectiveness.
Great idea though. Kind of like a MUD warhammer
Great idea though. Kind of like a MUD warhammer
History shows again and again how nature points out the folly of men..... Godzilla.
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Gwain
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Kirkus
- Sword Grand Master
- Posts: 449
- Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2003 8:08 pm
- Location: Zhentil Keep
- Contact:
I think this is a very interesting idea, and like Micheal I can say it has crossed my mind before. In response to Levine and Lerytha I would say that armies are going to be controlled by those pc's that deserve them. The forces of Waterdeep arn't going to be controlled by a new player but someone who has earned through time and experience the trust of the city and the imms.
War has been raging on this mud for as long as I have been here. This at least would make it more interesting for the orc's and the elves of Shilmista. So instead of one side or the other just simply running next door and cleaning out the place you can grab an orcish raiding party of... lets just say 5 orcs and make a real raid out of it. You get to Shilmista and instead of killing every elf there you face small groups representing the forces of Shilmista. So one week mayby Shilmista is reeling from an attack and the next week they exact their revenge and that week the Orc Village is attacked and defeated.
Yes large campaigns of war should be supervised but isn't it more fun to be a General in the Zhentarim and actually take part in the planing and preperation of war. The Zhents and Waterdeep both have spies so if the Zhents started mobalizing Waterdeep would have time to call together Lords' Alliance, which includes Waterdeep Silverymoon Neverwinter and other free cities. I will come back to this in a bit..... sorry
Let me insert a suggestion. Armies should be limited as to how far they can travel. Armies like that of smaller cities like Shilmista and Orc Camp should only be able to go short distances, larger armies like that of Waterdeep and Zhentil Keep should have basically no end as to how far they can march. But more importantly there should be a limit as to how far they can march in a day. In real life an army forced to march could only realistically march a certain number of miles a day. This is hard to do because it would be frustrating to only be able to march an army 2 rooms then have to wait for the next day. But letting an army march from Zhentil to Waterdeep in 5 minutes is worse. Here are my reasons, it gives the opposing forces time to rally troops and begin to mobalize their own forces. It facilitates rp of rangers, they make excelent long range scouts.
War has been raging on this mud for as long as I have been here. This at least would make it more interesting for the orc's and the elves of Shilmista. So instead of one side or the other just simply running next door and cleaning out the place you can grab an orcish raiding party of... lets just say 5 orcs and make a real raid out of it. You get to Shilmista and instead of killing every elf there you face small groups representing the forces of Shilmista. So one week mayby Shilmista is reeling from an attack and the next week they exact their revenge and that week the Orc Village is attacked and defeated.
Yes large campaigns of war should be supervised but isn't it more fun to be a General in the Zhentarim and actually take part in the planing and preperation of war. The Zhents and Waterdeep both have spies so if the Zhents started mobalizing Waterdeep would have time to call together Lords' Alliance, which includes Waterdeep Silverymoon Neverwinter and other free cities. I will come back to this in a bit..... sorry
Let me insert a suggestion. Armies should be limited as to how far they can travel. Armies like that of smaller cities like Shilmista and Orc Camp should only be able to go short distances, larger armies like that of Waterdeep and Zhentil Keep should have basically no end as to how far they can march. But more importantly there should be a limit as to how far they can march in a day. In real life an army forced to march could only realistically march a certain number of miles a day. This is hard to do because it would be frustrating to only be able to march an army 2 rooms then have to wait for the next day. But letting an army march from Zhentil to Waterdeep in 5 minutes is worse. Here are my reasons, it gives the opposing forces time to rally troops and begin to mobalize their own forces. It facilitates rp of rangers, they make excelent long range scouts.
I am ready to meet my Maker. Whether my Maker is prepared for the great ordeal of meeting me is another matter.
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Kirkus
- Sword Grand Master
- Posts: 449
- Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2003 8:08 pm
- Location: Zhentil Keep
- Contact:
Another benefit I see is that this would spread the focus of the mud off of Waterdeep. With armies all over ther world pc's are going to spread to where they can have power and position. Why sit in market square in Waterdeep when you can move to Silverymoon and become a general. And I am not saying these positions should be open for free or for anyone who wants them. There should be competitions and quests and movement through the ranks. I think it would be cool to make a fighter in Silverymoon and join the army there and do a couple small piddily quests that would have level restirctions and what not to become a sergant to 5 soldiers. You can then roam the small areas arround silverymoon with your small little band. Then once you reach another level and gain kismet and glory you do more interesting and more difficult quests to become a captain or something. You then get 5 sergants under your command and a larger area you can patrol.
The way I see it is that eventually all ranks and positions should be player held that way if and when the Zhents what to attack the Dalelands whe have a large scale player/imm initiated and run event that a large population can have a place in.
The way I see it is that eventually all ranks and positions should be player held that way if and when the Zhents what to attack the Dalelands whe have a large scale player/imm initiated and run event that a large population can have a place in.
I am ready to meet my Maker. Whether my Maker is prepared for the great ordeal of meeting me is another matter.
Straying aside from the point on armies (in which leadership and morale should definitely be taken into consideration) I've seen games where players are allowed to control cities. There is a very sophisticated political and economical system. Mostly players that don't roleplay enough land themselves in millions of debt or killed off by assassins, so the system is self preservative 
I was wondering if there could be such a system in FK, where extensive RP could land a player among the ranks of the Secret Lords of Waterdeep, or an ambitious leader gathering a force to threaten the City of Splendors.
I understand the trouble with this is that generally in FK we hope to follow the FR plot, and the books provide enough campaigns to play. I'm just wondering if the game is prepared to stretch its allowances and make FK a tale based on the land and characters of FR, but not its plot.
I was wondering if there could be such a system in FK, where extensive RP could land a player among the ranks of the Secret Lords of Waterdeep, or an ambitious leader gathering a force to threaten the City of Splendors.
I understand the trouble with this is that generally in FK we hope to follow the FR plot, and the books provide enough campaigns to play. I'm just wondering if the game is prepared to stretch its allowances and make FK a tale based on the land and characters of FR, but not its plot.
Chars: Aryvael et all.
I had an idea to put here...
If this IS implemented....how about kind of a capture the flag thing? No no...hear me out first.
How about capturing figureheads of the city and taking them back to your city for interogations...(i know, spelling is bad) and try to get secrets about the city like best place to enter to raid and what not.
Or there could be a blockade...where some merchants are either captured, or what not.
Ooooooor....trade refusal? If an NPC merchant knows you are from a rival/enemy city, they could have a chance to not trade with you.
Okay, I'm done....
::waits for tomatoes to be thrown::
If this IS implemented....how about kind of a capture the flag thing? No no...hear me out first.
How about capturing figureheads of the city and taking them back to your city for interogations...(i know, spelling is bad) and try to get secrets about the city like best place to enter to raid and what not.
Or there could be a blockade...where some merchants are either captured, or what not.
Ooooooor....trade refusal? If an NPC merchant knows you are from a rival/enemy city, they could have a chance to not trade with you.
Okay, I'm done....
::waits for tomatoes to be thrown::
Your punch viciously hammers a shark's abdomen.
A shark is stunned, but will probably recover.
http://www.elfonlyinn.net/d/20070925.html
A shark is stunned, but will probably recover.
http://www.elfonlyinn.net/d/20070925.html
Well, to start off, I think that this is the next step when it comes to adventuring, growing beyond your individual character to take a larger role in your kingdom, and this sort of thing has been a part of D&D as long as D&D has existed. Gaining a stronghold with followers when you reach certain levels, entire campaign settings like Birthright, and 3rd edition has even more options towards this sort of thing.
I believe that armies are definetely not something every character, or even one in ten should be able to control. Gaining an army here should not be something that you gain access to when you reach a certain level. It would be part of the RP of your character and would come to you over long term showing of responsibility and activity towards making your army better on the part of your character.
Here is how I would see it happening from a low level character's advance through his lifetime. As someone who is interested in protecting his city of Waterdeep, a character would approach the commander of the city's forces and ask if they can join. This would be in a lot of ways like joining a military organization, like an Order of Paladins, although there would be far fewer restrictions. As a low level character, there would be a very few things you could do. A city might maintain numerous 'armies' of various types, especially a city as big as Waterdeep. They might maintian a very small army, no more than 100 people for instance, of human rangers who would be tasked with moving quickly about the countryside on patrol, ensuring that no one was attacking any of the nearby towns, forts, or other such things. The commander of the city's forces, after he trusts the character and has been shown that they are learning the responsibilities of command, might allow them to take this, the smallest army, out to patrol the nearby area. This would give the character a chance to practice the army commands, things like movement, etc.
As the PC advances, gains in strength and wealth and character, they would be given temporary control of larger and larger contingents of troops, until they reach the point where they would be of such a rank and trust level that they would be able to take an army out themselves. Armies themselves would be able to be improved with traiing and money, so the better the PC does in taking care of the army they have been entrusted with, the more they will show themselves to be capable of higher authority. And this will have nothing to do with class, a cleric or a thief or a wizard could command armies as well as a warrior, it's merely an aspect of leadership and dedication.
As time goes on, the PC takes a role training other PCs in the command of armies. The way I see it working, a city the size of waterdeep would maintain numerous 'armies' for various purposes. 100-man groups of Rangers to scout out rough terrain quickly, 1,000-man groups of cavalry to support foot soldiers, 10,000 man groups of foot-soldiers. 100-man groups of war wizards who would cast terrible spells but would crumple when faced with a head on attack by a cavalry charge. 500-man groups of archers to do damage without taking much themselves.
I would say that armies should only be able to maneuver and battle in wilderness areas. This wouldn't be the sort of thing you could march into a single room in an inn or a tavern. Armies would be extremely strictly controlled by the cities. No one would be able to march an army off on their own or steal one. While every city, temple or town might be able to mount a force of some size, the people in charge would be very few and specific. The high priests of each faith for instance might control their own faith's contingency. The Tempurans might maintain a huge force of war priests that would rival many towns. The Chaunteans might maintain a small group of Rangers who would help scout areas and work in concert to protect other cities with their help. Paladin orders would be in charge of large groups of paladin type armies, and would be quite formidable, taking on the role not just of an individual representative of their faith, but actually leading their order into battle, most likely in concert with the priests of their faith.
Here is how I see a relatively average war working... The Zhentarim wish to gain control of the Dalelands, but to do so openly might invite attack on their own land directly. So the city lords dispatch ambassadors with gifts of money and perhaps small forces to support a powerful Orc leader. Quickly recruiting a horde of Orcs to himself from the Orc village using the money given by the Zhentarim, this leader would lead his band of Orcs, who are large in strength of numbers but perhaps relatively low in morale and training, across the lands in an attempt to capture the city of Daggerdale. As they march across the land, a PC who just happened to see an orcish horde on the move would rush to let everyone know what is happening. A small elven army from Silverymoon might be dispatched on short notice, while they might contact their allies among the dwarves of Mithril Hall, who would lead their own army. The Orcs may have reached the edges of the Dalelands by this time, and the Elves would have arranged to meet with the Dwarves on the outskirts and lead a combined attack against the Orcs. Also showing up might be a small army from Westgate, who know that the Zhentarim are behind this and don't want the influence of Zhentil Keep to be expanded so much. At a war council between the three army's leaders, the Westgate commander is insulted and draws off his own army, let the Elves and Dwarves die for not giving him the respect he deserves. The Elves and Dwarves must go on to help relieve the Dalelands, so they set out and meet the Orcs in battle. While the Elves and Dwarves are highly trained and motivated, their combined strength is still less than 1/4 that of the Orcish horde, and things are not going well for them. Suddenly in the distance here comes a Paladin of Tyr, leading behind him a force of paladins who charge against the Orcs from the rear. The Orcs begin to take huge losses and deciding that it's better to retreat and live, they run off. The Dalelands have been relieved and there is cause for celebration across all kingdoms. The Orcish army took huge losses, and even the Human, Dwarven and Elven armies took large losses themselves, so none of those armies will be at full strength for a while and will be thusly, not ready for combat. It will take time to recruit new troops, to reequip them and to bring them back up to strength, so for now the balance is maintained. The Army of Westgate returns home grumbling, but still at full strength, perhaps able to make a little mischief of their own, but that is a matter for next time...
After an event like this you have had amazing RP, combat, conflict, victory and defeat, without worrying about things that annoy everyone... PC death and the looting of corpses, stuff that causes resentment, meaningless insults being hurled, people ganging up unfairly and making what amounts to hit and run player killings. Much more organized, much more interesting and much healthier for an RP environment. It brings things like diplomacy into the game, helps to foster a spirit of identity with your home city that for lots of people doesn't really exist, and also fosters competition in a good spirit to gain higher rank and to prove yourself a true leader of others.
Medium level characters aren't ignored. Cities will be forced to maintain different armies for different purposes. Only one character can take command of one army. It might be a lot more useful for your city to maintain a force of 5000 footmen, 1000 cavalry, 1000 archers, 100 wizards and 100 clerics, but this would mean you would need to have 5 leaders to take these armies out. In the end, this alone will ensure that cities won't maintain useless armies, because you will want to concentrate your forces in a useful form. A small city might prefer to maintain 5 small armies of 1000 people for different purposes if they have the leaders. Another city with only one capable active leader might prefer one army of 5000 people. Having more armies with different capabilities will be preferable to one army with one capability (footsoldiers, rangers, archers, etc) So cities will want to recruit and maintain good leaders, starting them off as soon as they feel they are ready for the responsibility, but the armies would always remain the city's, temple's or noble house's and never the individual character's personal armies. Something like that would be more likely for an IMM controlled RP situation, like a huge horde from the East under the command of one warrior-king invading FK, and forcing everyone else to band together to fight them off.
The more you think about it, the more options this opens up for RP, while never reducing the options for individual characters to RP on their own as individual adventurers. But in my D&D campaigns on tabletop, eventually you reach a level of power and fame that you want to have some effect on the world around you, not just to throw your money into the vault where you can't use it on anything. The same goes here... we can get people to stop competing to have every single piece of the top gear because they have nothing else to spend their money on. Instead they might funnel their hard-earned money into improving their city's armed forces and in the meantime securing for themselves higher ranks and more prestige. Perhaps it might get to the point where the most prestigious and successful generals might gain kingdoms themselves. I can't think of any reason that people would honestly dislike this, because it would only create more interesting things happening across the kingdoms as a whole, spread RP out across the world as people who were ambitious might find it a lot easier to gain control of an army in low-populated Westgate or Silverymoon than crowded Waterdeep or Zhentil Keep.
Even if you don't want to command armies, it still opens up positions like ambassadors, negotiators, while giving some real purpose to being a member of a hereditary nobility, which could even be an options introduced under the kismet system. A city like Zhentil Keep might not allow anyone not of the noble caste to control an army, so it would give you something else to spend kismet on rather than some strange exotic race. Even in the Underdark, we could introduce house to house combat without having to worry about the consequences of constant player killing, the supreme house might be decided by combat between an army of a few thousand Drow warriors and positions like Weaponsmaster and First Boy would be something that everyone would strive for, rather than a nice but relatively meaningless title as they are now, and hence few people worry much about them.
I think that the possibilities for RP this would open up would be amazing and well-worth further discussion, as Mystra said, the worst that could happen is that nothing comes of it but some interesting ideas which hey, might at least spur people to think about their own RP as part of something larger. I for one, like to feel like when I have worked for my character for so long that he has grown from more than a selfish adventurer to someone who fights for a larger cause, whether it's a good cause or an evil one, whether it's glory or wealth or freedom, it's the kind of stuff that makes your character a legend throughout history. Imagine the books bards could write about the battles that we could have! The politicking! The backstabs and betrayals and the noble sacrifices. This is what RP is about for me far more than sitting in a tavern telling your life story, but actually making a life story where you have more interesting things to talk about than the mobs you have killed or the quests you have completed which everyone else has completed as well or the equipment you gained. And that's the reason this is of such immense interest to me.
I believe that armies are definetely not something every character, or even one in ten should be able to control. Gaining an army here should not be something that you gain access to when you reach a certain level. It would be part of the RP of your character and would come to you over long term showing of responsibility and activity towards making your army better on the part of your character.
Here is how I would see it happening from a low level character's advance through his lifetime. As someone who is interested in protecting his city of Waterdeep, a character would approach the commander of the city's forces and ask if they can join. This would be in a lot of ways like joining a military organization, like an Order of Paladins, although there would be far fewer restrictions. As a low level character, there would be a very few things you could do. A city might maintain numerous 'armies' of various types, especially a city as big as Waterdeep. They might maintian a very small army, no more than 100 people for instance, of human rangers who would be tasked with moving quickly about the countryside on patrol, ensuring that no one was attacking any of the nearby towns, forts, or other such things. The commander of the city's forces, after he trusts the character and has been shown that they are learning the responsibilities of command, might allow them to take this, the smallest army, out to patrol the nearby area. This would give the character a chance to practice the army commands, things like movement, etc.
As the PC advances, gains in strength and wealth and character, they would be given temporary control of larger and larger contingents of troops, until they reach the point where they would be of such a rank and trust level that they would be able to take an army out themselves. Armies themselves would be able to be improved with traiing and money, so the better the PC does in taking care of the army they have been entrusted with, the more they will show themselves to be capable of higher authority. And this will have nothing to do with class, a cleric or a thief or a wizard could command armies as well as a warrior, it's merely an aspect of leadership and dedication.
As time goes on, the PC takes a role training other PCs in the command of armies. The way I see it working, a city the size of waterdeep would maintain numerous 'armies' for various purposes. 100-man groups of Rangers to scout out rough terrain quickly, 1,000-man groups of cavalry to support foot soldiers, 10,000 man groups of foot-soldiers. 100-man groups of war wizards who would cast terrible spells but would crumple when faced with a head on attack by a cavalry charge. 500-man groups of archers to do damage without taking much themselves.
I would say that armies should only be able to maneuver and battle in wilderness areas. This wouldn't be the sort of thing you could march into a single room in an inn or a tavern. Armies would be extremely strictly controlled by the cities. No one would be able to march an army off on their own or steal one. While every city, temple or town might be able to mount a force of some size, the people in charge would be very few and specific. The high priests of each faith for instance might control their own faith's contingency. The Tempurans might maintain a huge force of war priests that would rival many towns. The Chaunteans might maintain a small group of Rangers who would help scout areas and work in concert to protect other cities with their help. Paladin orders would be in charge of large groups of paladin type armies, and would be quite formidable, taking on the role not just of an individual representative of their faith, but actually leading their order into battle, most likely in concert with the priests of their faith.
Here is how I see a relatively average war working... The Zhentarim wish to gain control of the Dalelands, but to do so openly might invite attack on their own land directly. So the city lords dispatch ambassadors with gifts of money and perhaps small forces to support a powerful Orc leader. Quickly recruiting a horde of Orcs to himself from the Orc village using the money given by the Zhentarim, this leader would lead his band of Orcs, who are large in strength of numbers but perhaps relatively low in morale and training, across the lands in an attempt to capture the city of Daggerdale. As they march across the land, a PC who just happened to see an orcish horde on the move would rush to let everyone know what is happening. A small elven army from Silverymoon might be dispatched on short notice, while they might contact their allies among the dwarves of Mithril Hall, who would lead their own army. The Orcs may have reached the edges of the Dalelands by this time, and the Elves would have arranged to meet with the Dwarves on the outskirts and lead a combined attack against the Orcs. Also showing up might be a small army from Westgate, who know that the Zhentarim are behind this and don't want the influence of Zhentil Keep to be expanded so much. At a war council between the three army's leaders, the Westgate commander is insulted and draws off his own army, let the Elves and Dwarves die for not giving him the respect he deserves. The Elves and Dwarves must go on to help relieve the Dalelands, so they set out and meet the Orcs in battle. While the Elves and Dwarves are highly trained and motivated, their combined strength is still less than 1/4 that of the Orcish horde, and things are not going well for them. Suddenly in the distance here comes a Paladin of Tyr, leading behind him a force of paladins who charge against the Orcs from the rear. The Orcs begin to take huge losses and deciding that it's better to retreat and live, they run off. The Dalelands have been relieved and there is cause for celebration across all kingdoms. The Orcish army took huge losses, and even the Human, Dwarven and Elven armies took large losses themselves, so none of those armies will be at full strength for a while and will be thusly, not ready for combat. It will take time to recruit new troops, to reequip them and to bring them back up to strength, so for now the balance is maintained. The Army of Westgate returns home grumbling, but still at full strength, perhaps able to make a little mischief of their own, but that is a matter for next time...
After an event like this you have had amazing RP, combat, conflict, victory and defeat, without worrying about things that annoy everyone... PC death and the looting of corpses, stuff that causes resentment, meaningless insults being hurled, people ganging up unfairly and making what amounts to hit and run player killings. Much more organized, much more interesting and much healthier for an RP environment. It brings things like diplomacy into the game, helps to foster a spirit of identity with your home city that for lots of people doesn't really exist, and also fosters competition in a good spirit to gain higher rank and to prove yourself a true leader of others.
Medium level characters aren't ignored. Cities will be forced to maintain different armies for different purposes. Only one character can take command of one army. It might be a lot more useful for your city to maintain a force of 5000 footmen, 1000 cavalry, 1000 archers, 100 wizards and 100 clerics, but this would mean you would need to have 5 leaders to take these armies out. In the end, this alone will ensure that cities won't maintain useless armies, because you will want to concentrate your forces in a useful form. A small city might prefer to maintain 5 small armies of 1000 people for different purposes if they have the leaders. Another city with only one capable active leader might prefer one army of 5000 people. Having more armies with different capabilities will be preferable to one army with one capability (footsoldiers, rangers, archers, etc) So cities will want to recruit and maintain good leaders, starting them off as soon as they feel they are ready for the responsibility, but the armies would always remain the city's, temple's or noble house's and never the individual character's personal armies. Something like that would be more likely for an IMM controlled RP situation, like a huge horde from the East under the command of one warrior-king invading FK, and forcing everyone else to band together to fight them off.
The more you think about it, the more options this opens up for RP, while never reducing the options for individual characters to RP on their own as individual adventurers. But in my D&D campaigns on tabletop, eventually you reach a level of power and fame that you want to have some effect on the world around you, not just to throw your money into the vault where you can't use it on anything. The same goes here... we can get people to stop competing to have every single piece of the top gear because they have nothing else to spend their money on. Instead they might funnel their hard-earned money into improving their city's armed forces and in the meantime securing for themselves higher ranks and more prestige. Perhaps it might get to the point where the most prestigious and successful generals might gain kingdoms themselves. I can't think of any reason that people would honestly dislike this, because it would only create more interesting things happening across the kingdoms as a whole, spread RP out across the world as people who were ambitious might find it a lot easier to gain control of an army in low-populated Westgate or Silverymoon than crowded Waterdeep or Zhentil Keep.
Even if you don't want to command armies, it still opens up positions like ambassadors, negotiators, while giving some real purpose to being a member of a hereditary nobility, which could even be an options introduced under the kismet system. A city like Zhentil Keep might not allow anyone not of the noble caste to control an army, so it would give you something else to spend kismet on rather than some strange exotic race. Even in the Underdark, we could introduce house to house combat without having to worry about the consequences of constant player killing, the supreme house might be decided by combat between an army of a few thousand Drow warriors and positions like Weaponsmaster and First Boy would be something that everyone would strive for, rather than a nice but relatively meaningless title as they are now, and hence few people worry much about them.
I think that the possibilities for RP this would open up would be amazing and well-worth further discussion, as Mystra said, the worst that could happen is that nothing comes of it but some interesting ideas which hey, might at least spur people to think about their own RP as part of something larger. I for one, like to feel like when I have worked for my character for so long that he has grown from more than a selfish adventurer to someone who fights for a larger cause, whether it's a good cause or an evil one, whether it's glory or wealth or freedom, it's the kind of stuff that makes your character a legend throughout history. Imagine the books bards could write about the battles that we could have! The politicking! The backstabs and betrayals and the noble sacrifices. This is what RP is about for me far more than sitting in a tavern telling your life story, but actually making a life story where you have more interesting things to talk about than the mobs you have killed or the quests you have completed which everyone else has completed as well or the equipment you gained. And that's the reason this is of such immense interest to me.
So it would be Pkilling except that instead of player death there would be army destruction? At least to a point? Except the armies wouldn't 'die' unless really clobbered...but having coin make them grow doesn't seem too good, because since there are say, 100 ppl in WD versus 30 in Silverymoon, the Hundred can give 2 plat each and up their army whereas the Silverymoon ppl can get a much smaller force for the same cost apiece. Therefore maybe it should be more dependent on RP, with an 'army kismet' that shows how long/well an army is Rped with by its leader...and if there are stats for the army, maybe it goes up in the stat of ther person who is leading it...so the Morale goes up and the troop number (strength) goes up when a paladin his heading it, the movement goes up when a ranger, the intelligence when a wizard, etc.
From my position on the fence, in this matter, I have a few concerns and a few ideas.
1. The way in which the armies are created might create a few problems. Having it based solely on PC gold might create problems in the future. One way to avoid this would be to put to one side for the moment, the idea of PCs having their own armies and castles. Instead, we could have armies for each city. Waterdeep, therefore would have its own armies. I think this has been suggested, but basically, this way we do not have to worry about how the armies are created. They just ARE. If that makes sense. After a battle, the armies would return to their homelands, and slowly recover strength.
2. How are the armies represented? Are they single mobs? If so, I would say fine: but perhaps a separate "war area" could be created. I am not sure, but the concern is this. There are two different scales, in discussion here. The minute, personal scale of the adventurer who can sit in the Square and who is one person. In the whole MUD, it is all about the singular person or at the most, a large group. This idea involves vast armies... the two are difficult to mix. Now, Solaghar mentioned Birthright. I have not played the tabletop game, but in the computer game, there was a "realm" screen, and an "adventure" screen. This separated adventures from the larger concerns of diplomacy/war. So perhaps a separate area where a single mob represents a larger unit.
3. Heroes. In the books, we see heroes doing much to stop armies. Drizzt, perhaps, kills many. But really, we all know that fighter heroes in battle are just there to lead, direct the charge and bolster the lines with their heroics. How would we reconcile the differing strengths of adventurer classes on the "battle scene". Wizards in the MUD are (this is not a moan) not as powerful as in the books. In the books, wizards are seen to drive armies back singlehandedly. But statswise, for wizards to have that sort of power in the MUD might make it unbalanced.
I did have lots of concerns, but I seem to have forgotten them.
They were not MAJOR concerns, just a few issues. The three points above, I hope, are clear enough to understand. If not, do not hesitate to ask me to confirm them.
I fully adore the idea of mini quests to grow in rank from rank'n'file to general. This would perhaps, give strategy knowledge? Perhaps, if this was instituted, there could be a new "Knowledge: Strategy" implemented. It might slightly deviate from the accepted D&D realm, but I think it might help. That way, the lords of say, Waterdeep, could choose the highest-ranking general OR they could choose on with a higher Knowledge skill...
There are so many possibilities with this. At the moment, I do not see how it can be implemented. But I am thinking about it. I for one would LIKE it to happen... keep the ideas coming!
1. The way in which the armies are created might create a few problems. Having it based solely on PC gold might create problems in the future. One way to avoid this would be to put to one side for the moment, the idea of PCs having their own armies and castles. Instead, we could have armies for each city. Waterdeep, therefore would have its own armies. I think this has been suggested, but basically, this way we do not have to worry about how the armies are created. They just ARE. If that makes sense. After a battle, the armies would return to their homelands, and slowly recover strength.
2. How are the armies represented? Are they single mobs? If so, I would say fine: but perhaps a separate "war area" could be created. I am not sure, but the concern is this. There are two different scales, in discussion here. The minute, personal scale of the adventurer who can sit in the Square and who is one person. In the whole MUD, it is all about the singular person or at the most, a large group. This idea involves vast armies... the two are difficult to mix. Now, Solaghar mentioned Birthright. I have not played the tabletop game, but in the computer game, there was a "realm" screen, and an "adventure" screen. This separated adventures from the larger concerns of diplomacy/war. So perhaps a separate area where a single mob represents a larger unit.
3. Heroes. In the books, we see heroes doing much to stop armies. Drizzt, perhaps, kills many. But really, we all know that fighter heroes in battle are just there to lead, direct the charge and bolster the lines with their heroics. How would we reconcile the differing strengths of adventurer classes on the "battle scene". Wizards in the MUD are (this is not a moan) not as powerful as in the books. In the books, wizards are seen to drive armies back singlehandedly. But statswise, for wizards to have that sort of power in the MUD might make it unbalanced.
I did have lots of concerns, but I seem to have forgotten them.
They were not MAJOR concerns, just a few issues. The three points above, I hope, are clear enough to understand. If not, do not hesitate to ask me to confirm them.I fully adore the idea of mini quests to grow in rank from rank'n'file to general. This would perhaps, give strategy knowledge? Perhaps, if this was instituted, there could be a new "Knowledge: Strategy" implemented. It might slightly deviate from the accepted D&D realm, but I think it might help. That way, the lords of say, Waterdeep, could choose the highest-ranking general OR they could choose on with a higher Knowledge skill...
There are so many possibilities with this. At the moment, I do not see how it can be implemented. But I am thinking about it. I for one would LIKE it to happen... keep the ideas coming!
If you have knowledge, let others light their candles with it.
--Sir Winston Churchill
"This place is boring, I'm gonna go eat whatever I can find laying on the ground"
-- Hoildric
Cacie asks Larethiel 'Did that air just bow to you?
--Sir Winston Churchill
"This place is boring, I'm gonna go eat whatever I can find laying on the ground"
-- Hoildric
Cacie asks Larethiel 'Did that air just bow to you?
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Kirkus
- Sword Grand Master
- Posts: 449
- Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2003 8:08 pm
- Location: Zhentil Keep
- Contact:
I think that army sizes should be dictated by their citys size. This will bring the emphasis off of the players bank account. Plus it will bring in the added dynamic of aliances and friendly nations. What I mean by that is the Moonsea is mostly controlled by the Zhents, so they have roughtly a population of 1,745,280 at their disposal. This beats Waterdeeps 1,347,840 by a little under 400,000. This means that the Zhents are going to be able to raise a larger army than Waterdeep alone especially since the Zhents are evil and don't mind enslaving people to fight. So Waterdeep is going to have to turn to other cities to gather support. Thus the Lords' Alliance between the lords of the North and Western Heartlands.
Next I think armies should be represented depending on the rank of the pc within the army. A pc who is a sergant should have 1 mob that represents 5 soldiers. And when you look at them they appear to be 5 soldiers and when they enter the room the game says ' 5 soldiers of the Waterdeep Guard have entered the room' The problem comes down to how to represent a larger force. Perhaps a pc captain that is incharge of 5 squads of 5 could have 5 mobs but even that begins to become spammy.
I posted some ideas earlier this week that pertains to this post in a post in the skills section I will fish those out later....
Next I think armies should be represented depending on the rank of the pc within the army. A pc who is a sergant should have 1 mob that represents 5 soldiers. And when you look at them they appear to be 5 soldiers and when they enter the room the game says ' 5 soldiers of the Waterdeep Guard have entered the room' The problem comes down to how to represent a larger force. Perhaps a pc captain that is incharge of 5 squads of 5 could have 5 mobs but even that begins to become spammy.
I posted some ideas earlier this week that pertains to this post in a post in the skills section I will fish those out later....
I am ready to meet my Maker. Whether my Maker is prepared for the great ordeal of meeting me is another matter.
Here's an idea. It's always been said that a city area, dungeon, etc, is a few feet area for each room, whereas wilderness is 30 miles or something. Well. We can bar "army mobs" from entering Waterdeep, other city areas... but have the fighting on the plains, etc, with Kirkus' idea of "5 soldiers of Waterdeep enter"... this could easily be, one day, "500 soldiers of Waterdeep enter".
It might be crude, but it seems a possibility.
So, if the Zhents were fighting the Dalesmen, they would fight in the wilderness area outside Shadowdale, with "army mob" killing "army mob". Now, depending on the result, then an imm could load up some normal mobs and a "small-scale" attack could occur in Shadowdale for instance, with PCs protecting it against other PCs and mobs.
I hope that makes some sense? This way, we have the clear separation, and it doesn't seem TOO hard to code. (not that I know). We could just have pre-made mobs, with the desc of "500 soldiers of Waterdeep" and they are just never used against PCs.
Something to think about, perhaps. Whilst not as grand as the original idea, it is certainly something that might work?
It might be crude, but it seems a possibility.
So, if the Zhents were fighting the Dalesmen, they would fight in the wilderness area outside Shadowdale, with "army mob" killing "army mob". Now, depending on the result, then an imm could load up some normal mobs and a "small-scale" attack could occur in Shadowdale for instance, with PCs protecting it against other PCs and mobs.
I hope that makes some sense? This way, we have the clear separation, and it doesn't seem TOO hard to code. (not that I know). We could just have pre-made mobs, with the desc of "500 soldiers of Waterdeep" and they are just never used against PCs.
Something to think about, perhaps. Whilst not as grand as the original idea, it is certainly something that might work?
If you have knowledge, let others light their candles with it.
--Sir Winston Churchill
"This place is boring, I'm gonna go eat whatever I can find laying on the ground"
-- Hoildric
Cacie asks Larethiel 'Did that air just bow to you?
--Sir Winston Churchill
"This place is boring, I'm gonna go eat whatever I can find laying on the ground"
-- Hoildric
Cacie asks Larethiel 'Did that air just bow to you?
one mob that is described as many is certainly an option. Another could be used in the case of PC/hero vs. army. Remember that no matter how large a force, no more than a few could get to one person at a time (except of course if hundreds of archers skewer the battlefield)
so, perhaps 7 vs 1 at a time and once one dies another instantly takes his place, so there are no more than 7 real mobs at a time and the army is depicted in the room description. seven being just a random number here.
so, perhaps 7 vs 1 at a time and once one dies another instantly takes his place, so there are no more than 7 real mobs at a time and the army is depicted in the room description. seven being just a random number here.
Chars: Aryvael et all.
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Kirkus
- Sword Grand Master
- Posts: 449
- Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2003 8:08 pm
- Location: Zhentil Keep
- Contact:
I think armies should be able to enter cities. Armies are always entering cities after a triumphant return from war or after conquering a city. Waterdeeps castle where the army would gather is in the center of the city. I do agree that a full army should not be marching through the market except for important reasons. As for roaming the cities I think Lerytha is right, that armies of larger numbers should not be allowed to roam the city all willie nillie as they please. But squads of 5 thats no problem in my opinion.
I mentioned this else where I believe but an army should only be allowed to travel a certain distance a day. We stretch the imagination for pc's to travel from Zhentil Keep to Waterdeep in 5 minutes but an entire army we can't let do that. Plus this gives the opposing sides time to see the threat coming and react. This gives scouts and rangers a purpose and an area of expertise.
Anyone in the military could give a better more realistic view on this number but I think an army should only be allowed to move 150 miles a day thats 5 rooms. That is going to make a really long journey to accross the world but it will give a vast ammount of time to establish rp. I figure that a soldier in a forced run could cover 10 miles an hour that is a big stretch in my opinion. So if you force your army to run for 12 hours that 120 miles that day, and that is with out stopping I believe, and running the entire time. I think for game purposes we stretch reality even more to let an army cover 150 miles a day.
I mentioned this else where I believe but an army should only be allowed to travel a certain distance a day. We stretch the imagination for pc's to travel from Zhentil Keep to Waterdeep in 5 minutes but an entire army we can't let do that. Plus this gives the opposing sides time to see the threat coming and react. This gives scouts and rangers a purpose and an area of expertise.
Anyone in the military could give a better more realistic view on this number but I think an army should only be allowed to move 150 miles a day thats 5 rooms. That is going to make a really long journey to accross the world but it will give a vast ammount of time to establish rp. I figure that a soldier in a forced run could cover 10 miles an hour that is a big stretch in my opinion. So if you force your army to run for 12 hours that 120 miles that day, and that is with out stopping I believe, and running the entire time. I think for game purposes we stretch reality even more to let an army cover 150 miles a day.
I am ready to meet my Maker. Whether my Maker is prepared for the great ordeal of meeting me is another matter.
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Penryn
- Sword Apprentice
- Posts: 58
- Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2003 5:10 pm
- Location: Leuthilspar Evermeet
- Contact:
I like the idea and have considered something like this myself. But, I too have a few concerns for the viability of it within the campaign world.
I think the major part of my concerns is that it would be fit within a localized area only. I think this is somethin that is perfect for the Drow. This could be a great test subject for them within the cities down below. The Houses fighting back and forth. The different nobles raising 1-100 warriors in their army for battles perhaps. I think it could really help the role play down there. If it worked fully after alot of testing then consider it above ground. But, i think there is dozens of other holes in the system that would need to be hammered out first. It is a neat idea though.
I think the major part of my concerns is that it would be fit within a localized area only. I think this is somethin that is perfect for the Drow. This could be a great test subject for them within the cities down below. The Houses fighting back and forth. The different nobles raising 1-100 warriors in their army for battles perhaps. I think it could really help the role play down there. If it worked fully after alot of testing then consider it above ground. But, i think there is dozens of other holes in the system that would need to be hammered out first. It is a neat idea though.
For the rangers scouting out armies, would rangers just be able to 'tell' when an army was within a certain radius of rooms from them (noise, etc. (even though each room is 30 mi)) or would they have to cross the path the army took (which I'm not sure could be coded to leave a path) to tell that a massive force passed? It would make sense to me that they wouldn't have to be constantly looking N/S/E/W or walking into the same room...they are trackers so they can tell when a large group goes by (ala Aragorn telling that the orcs quickened their pace by listening to the ground in TTT movie)