Elven metal

Cret · Post by **Cret** » Thu Sep 18, 2003 7:51 pm

On another note: Will elves be the only race alowed to work elven metal?

Tempus · Post by **Tempus** » Thu Sep 18, 2003 8:02 pm

Yes, only elves should be able to work elven metal. The magical abilities of this metal are endowed by the smith upon creation of the item. In the hands of other races, the result would be just ordinary metal.

Cret · Post by **Cret** » Thu Sep 18, 2003 8:09 pm

This means that If I had a piece of elven metal, not code wise, I would craft it in to a metal ring or would it make an elven ring?

Stayne · Post by **Stayne** » Fri Sep 19, 2003 1:09 am

From my research there is technically no such thing as elven metal, in the same way there is no such thing as dwarvern metal. Elves work with any all types of metal, but like most races, commonly make arms and armour out of steel. During the smithing process, the elves weave many subtle magics into their craft that allow them to make the metal lighter, stronger, more flexible and less brittle. The resulting piece is considered a masterwork, even if from a novice and is then considered to be made of elven metal since the metal has undergone the changes required.

There is of course heaps more to it than that, but I hope it helps
S

Mingus · Post by **Mingus** » Fri Sep 19, 2003 2:19 am

Steel or mirthril? I always thought elven chain and the rare elven plate was made of mithril not steel. Much like the adamant that drow use, mithiril radiates certain magics that the elves can harness. Or am I wrong on this account. The only differance I can come up with between the use of it by the two primare users, dwarves vs elves, is the thickness. Reflecting both races, as the flighty elves will weave it like a cloth shirt or stamp it out like foil, a dwarves sturdy nature in turn would make it thick and heavy. But each no less effective than the other, it is just in the use. For the good of the game and code use and just to limit the access to magical items, I could see dwarven/elven metal being made when you smelt it but wouldn't the traditional metal be mithril and not steel?

Stayne · Post by **Stayne** » Fri Sep 19, 2003 4:20 am

Mingus -
My comment was that in general, steel was used, for it is the best metal to use. I would very much doubt that an army was bedecked in Mithril. Even the knights of Myht Drannor as far as I understand wore plate that was made of steel.
Mithril, is, well - rare. Not only that it takes a certain level of skill to work it, and the time to do so is alot longer as well. I am not saying that elves do not work with it, just that armours of such metal was alot rarer than the commonly used steel.

S

Tempus · Post by **Tempus** » Fri Sep 19, 2003 8:51 am

To cret...
If you have a piece of elven metal, and are capable of working it into anything, it will make as per your example 'an elven ring'. It will also be destroyed by an immortal when one sees it. There is code which is supposed to stop non-elves working this metal which is waiting to be updated to the game port.

To Stayne...
Yes, there is no such thing as 'elven metal', however this fabrication is the way it has been decided to code the production of elven items within this game. Sometimes liberties have to be taken for game-technical reasons. You are right that normally normal metal (steel/titanium/whatever) would be used by elven smiths, and the process of smithing the armour/weapon would imbue it with the necessary magics. Irrespective of this, in the game, elven metal is the product of an elf PC smelting a certain kind of ore, and should only be workable by elves when used in any of the trades.

Cret · Post by **Cret** » Sun Sep 21, 2003 8:06 pm

Another point from the other side, If I were an elf trying to work the other types of metal would it have the same effect? Or sence code wise we cannot tell who made an Item it would be alowed?

Mingus · Post by **Mingus** » Mon Sep 22, 2003 6:16 am

stayne wrote:Mithril, is, well - rare. Not only that it takes a certain level of skill to work it, and the time to do so is alot longer as well.

Not anymore rare than adamant. Just how many of drow hoards have poped their heads out of their hols through out the centuries, all clad in adamant? So I see no excuse as to why the elves would not have their armies clad in Mithril. Aslo How many years does the average elf live. With out incident, 1200? It would think thats enough time to perfect the craft with mithril.... And such a long lived race would no doubt have produce a lot of mithril goods since their creation.

I would see steel as a rarer comodity than mithril cause mithril comes out whole out of the ground. Where as steel is an alloy of iron and carbon,(and other minerals) requiring great amounts of heat to meld the two. More heat than any forge on toril. It took us till the industial revolution to come up with the blast furnace, able to produce steel in consistant amounts.

And about as rare or even more so would be titaniun...

Tempus · Post by **Tempus** » Mon Sep 22, 2003 10:11 am

Mingus wrote: Not anymore rare than adamant. Just how many of drow hordes have popped their heads out of their holes throughout the centuries, all clad in adamant?

Drow actually live underground, with easy access to sources of these metals. Codewise, only Drow can make and work adamantium.

Mingus wrote:Where as steel is an alloy of iron and carbon,(and other minerals) requiring great amounts of heat to meld the two. More heat than any forge on toril. It took us till the industial revolution to come up with the blast furnace, able to produce steel in consistant amounts.

This isn't true. The production of the various types of material from iron ore has been known since the hundreds BC. Yes, these early smelters did not know it was the carbon content which distinguished from iron metal, steel, or cast iron but they certainly knew that adding charcoal to the forge fire promoted the production of a material which was better to work with for certain purposes, and adding more charcoal gave another material which, once cast, was brittle but very strong (cast iron). Steel was made in small quantities, but without the addition of magic and god-granted knowledge, and in normal forges of the time (air-fed coal or wood burning forges). Note you do not need to melt iron in order to smelt it, but can achieve a relatively pure metal by chemical reduction at high temperature. On Toril, with the addition of magic, you can reach any temperature you would care to imagine.

If you are interested, have a look at http://www.the-orb.net/encyclop/culture ... steel.html for a good, simple explanation or http://www.mri.on.ca/steel.html for a more erudite treatise.

Mingus · Post by **Mingus** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 7:29 am

I did say consistant amounts... Steel was rare in ancient time, though it was made, it was not made in large quantites. They hade more iron products than steel. And the modern blast furnace , a product of Englands Ind. Rev., make the production of iron and steel more fruitful.

Spanish or Demascus steel is a good example of what you stated. And like bronze and brass was formed from copper/tin/zinc when left to puddle together, so too steel was first formed from of iron sitting next to carbon. And yes magic is the cure for everything... But as you also stated from our ancient times, would the people of Toril know the difference between steel and iron? Or how steel was produced? And would be the quantites that large?

That I would not mind seeing as a change to smelting. Getting iron when you smelt iron ore and as a GM(or at the very least adept/expert) bonus getting steel if you have carbon/coal/charcoal/pitch/soot in your inventory.

That or according to the skill level, adept or better, you would start to get steel instead of iron untill you GMed at which point you produce just steel. Since the carbon would come from the forge.
Maybe produce brass and bronze from copper ore if you had zinc or tin in your inverntory too...

Tempus · Post by **Tempus** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 10:23 am

I would support the move to making iron instead of steel at low smelting skill. I would also urge you to read the second of the articles I posted links to, where the author asserts that the technology existed to make larger amounts of steel even in roman times, but the usefulness of steel as an engineering product was not recognised and so the opportunity missed.

Yes you are right that 'significant' quantities were not produced until the industrial revolution - this means quantities available for use in heavy engineering such as building large structures. Around the time of Alexander, wootz (the contemporary name for a medium steel) was used for tool making and weaponry - the Damascus swords that you mentioned. It is not therefore unreasonable to assume that in our world the knowledge required for the making of steel products has not been refined and capitalised on.

Granel · Post by **Granel** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 7:05 pm

It is also interesting to note that, the rate of victorian and enlightened steel smiths and such, often tested metals to asses their value before working with them. Steel was seen as something that could resist the best rigors, iron was bendable but able to stand up for enough years to make it more valuyeable than weaker bronze and copper.

My great grandfather use to say that any man tests the strength of a horseshoe not by weighing it forsay, but to bite into it! If it is good hard steel, he will break a tooth if it is impure lead or too much wastemetal he'll have an intact tooth. The idea was to have a mouth full of broken teeth and not be cheated.

Of course in Toril steel is not as painfully judged, instead it is tested by the power of the weapon in open markets and the strength of character for those that sell it. Really you're relying on a trust factor, dwarven mined steel is usually real steel because most dwarves are too proud to lie, human steel has varying degrees of strength and the seller can be honest or not;. in the end it matters how gulable his patrons are. I understand that this world is completely different than ours in the fact that in could be said to be a "grimore by gaslight" stlye of things wherein that everything and everyone is above the medievil standard in most ways mayhaps even in the victorian mindset or enlightend ideals, though it matters where they are from.