Dual Wield vs. Sword and Shield vs. Two-Handed Weapon

Balek · Post by **Balek** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 1:01 am

It is fairly obvious to me that the majority of people who can dual wield are in fact doing just that. There is also apparently a reasonable amount of agreement that it would be nice to see more variation among players, so that some will dual wield, some will use shields and some will choose two-handed weapons.

There are ways to bring about these changes, all of them involving an important point. We must provide some incentive for using combat styles other than dual wielding. As things are today, dual wielding grants an extra attack as well as allowing a character who gets disarmed to fight on using a weapon while they retrieve their other one. These two bonuses are more than sufficient to get most people to dual wield. The damage from the additional attack is roughly on par with or better than the additional damage someone will do with a bash or 1.5 times damage from a two-handed weapon and this style means that you don't lose all of your damage dealing capability on a single disarm.

To accomplish our goals of making the other fighting styles more useful, we must determine what the current problem with them is. Damage is probably roughly equivalent between bashing, dual wielding and 1.5 times damage 2-handers. The only difference then is disarming. Solution? Make it harder to disarm someone using a shield. They're only using one weapon instead of two, it's easier to concentrate on using one weapon and keeping it safe. The shield is strapped to your arm, it's a lot harder to lose. Secondly, make it MUCH harder to disarm someone using a two-handed weapon. They don't get the benefit of shield blocking or bashing, they just get 1.5 times damage. If we make it much, much harder to disarm someone holding a weapon with two hands, maybe someone out there will actually use a two-handed weapon in a PvP situation.

An additional measure we could take to lure people away from the enticing prospect of dual wielding would be to require use of feats to make dual wielding feasible. As it stands, the only feat we have dealing with dual wielding is twin sword style, and that only makes it better. Instead of making dual wield better, we should be focusing on hindering standard dual wield and making feats that, when taken, make it a viable fighting style. In other words, increase 'to hit' penalties on dual wield and let people take feats to decrease those penalties.

Theillik · Post by **Theillik** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 2:16 am

I agree with Balek. There does seem to be a lot of dual wielding characters.

It definitely should be more difficult to disarm a two-handed weapon, as well as a weapon being blocked with a shield. With the two-hander, you would have to cut off the other person's hands before you could disarm them! And if one has a shield, it is easier to block a disarm.

I would also agree with adding a feat or two as well. Could there be a pre-requisite feat to gain dual wielding? For instance, ambidexterity.

Could a pre-requisite be having a certain skill level in the weapon(s) before one can learn dual wield? For instance, journeyman skill level with short blades, and journeyman skill level with single-edged blades.

In the Dungeons and Dragons PHB 3.5ed, there are massive penalties to dual wielding (two-weapon fighting), especially if the two weapons are of the same size (i.e. two long swords). Are these kind of penalties in the coding for FK?

Really, anything that could make the rp better, i.e. variety in weapons, characters, etc.

Happy New Year everyone:)

Glim · Post by **Glim** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 10:43 am

Now, just to put my two cents in. A good fighter with a sword and shield means that the shield negates one of the two weapon fighting character's attacks (this means GM in shieldwork). Thus, you are both throwing 5 (5 for the S&S and 6 - 1 blocked for the two weapon) attacks, except that the person with the sword and shield can bash. Now, very rarely are fighters GM in shieldwork, and I believe this puts shields at a disadvantage until you do GM that stat, which is not right, as you should not have to GM a skill just to be toe to toe with someone who automatically picks up a second weapon.

I agree totally with the two handed weapon moreso than the shield and sword since I have no RL experience with such, but I do know that a two handed weapon is much harder to disarm. Trap or disable one hand and they can let go and still attack with the other hand. Stronger grip with two hands, ect.

I would also agree with penalties to two weapon fighting to make it more difficult to just pick up a second weapon and use it. Feats would help this more, such as ambidexterity, two weapon fighting, and improved two weapon fighting. But, I would also like to say, if this is done, that you should, with a high dexterity (which should be the prerequisites of the feats), be able to use two long weapons, with merely higher penalties.

Well, theres my 34 cents, and you thought it was just gonna be 2.

Thanks,

Lathander · Post by **Lathander** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 6:08 pm

Fighters may take a long time to GM shieldwork, but I believe that it takes just as long to GM dual-wield.

Taerom · Post by **Taerom** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 7:48 pm

Lathander wrote:Fighters may take a long time to GM shieldwork, but I believe that it takes just as long to GM dual-wield.

It does take a very long time to GM dual-wield, however dual-wield is still quite useful when not at GM, because when you are disarmed, you fight as though you are simply using one weapon--all five attacks.

Argentia · Post by **Argentia** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 8:16 pm

As well, you do not always block one hit per round with a shield if you're not a GM in shieldwork(Maybe not even when you are a GM, I don't know as I've never GMed it) but I think you do always get one extra attack per round if you're not a GM in dual wield.

I would love to see the penalties to disarm put in, because I have seen some of the most ridiculious battles where a person battling sword&sheild/two-handed is constantly disarmed, just about every round, by a person battling dual-wielding. To me, and I'm not singling anyone out or bashing anyone, but it really just screams power gaming, because they come across as fighting to win rather than for the RP or fun of it, using actions which are pretty unIC just to win the fight. In a real fight, who's going to honestly disarm *that* much and still have the time to get in a good four-six slashes? I also support limiting disarm to once per battle(Or else making bash unlimited, but I'd rather see disarm limited) because it is a skill that largely benefits two-handers and hurts the other styles of fighting.

Timaeus · Post by **Timaeus** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 8:28 pm

GM Shieldwork used to be incredibly hard to raise, with the current restraints on increasing weapon skills and the level versus mob level it is likely that it will take a thousand hours of combat to GM shieldwork for a moderately intelligent fighter. My fighter grandmastered 6 weapons while training with a shield and is only at mid master skill level in shields. Shieldwork does not guarantee a blocked attack each round and if your dodge works it may not even attempt a shield block at all contributing to the difficulty in increasing shieldwork. Even at grandmaster shieldwork will not automatically deflect a blow to counter dual wield leaving shield and weapon far behind dual wield in practicality. A bash will deliver a decent amount of damage but in the end a fighter with gm attacks and dual wield will beat a shield using opponent.

Bash as it is coded now is fine and it works well in that it is a viable strategy to use against non-fighters. To give unlimited bashes would remove the semblence of balance that now exists between other classes and fighters. A fighter has a 50-50 chance of defeating priests and wizards with the odds raising or lowering based on the knowledge a particular player has and uses regarding their characters class. Better solutions would be to give bonuses to other things when using a shield the greater difficulty to disarm, maybe even a shield could increase the chances of your opponent to fumble their weapon. A shield could attempt to block two attacks instead of one. There are many things that could be done without giving unlimted bashes per combat or removing the requirement that a shield is needed to bash.

Argentia · Post by **Argentia** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 8:50 pm

Better solutions would be to give bonuses to other things when using a shield the greater difficulty to disarm, maybe even a shield could increase the chances of your opponent to fumble their weapon. A shield could attempt to block two attacks instead of one. There are many things that could be done without giving unlimted bashes per combat or removing the requirement that a shield is needed to bash.

I agree, and I like your thinking, Timaeus. There was a thread here http://www.forgottenkingdoms.com/board/ ... php?t=3336 that discussed giving shields more blocking power, which makes a lot of sense to me. Like I said, I'd much rather see things like penalties to disarm, which mostly benefit dual-wielders, before I see unlimited bashing. But the point I was trying to make was that it seems a little unfair that bashing is limited, while disarm can be rampantly used, almost to the point of abusing it.(In my opinion, at least.)

Legault · Post by **Legault** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 9:43 pm

My question is a little off topic, but it relates to dual wielding anway.
- Is it possible to Dual Wield a very small hand crossbow and perhaps a smaller balde such as a shortsword, dirk, dagger, etc.?

Timaeus · Post by **Timaeus** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 9:52 pm

No Legault, even if you happen to find one that allows you to it is not possible to reload the item to shoot it again. If its being used as a club fine if its being used as a missile weapon it is inappropriate.

How do you reload a weapon that takes two hands to reload and carry a different weapon in your other hand?

Legault · Post by **Legault** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 10:18 pm

Good point... I should have realized that..
Thanks a bunch

Tretch · Post by **Tretch** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 10:29 pm

To answer part of Glim's post...

GMing Dual Wield allows you to wield two long weapons at once.

Unless of course... you are a dwarf. BAH!!!!

Maybe a fun addition would be that if you successfully block an attack...

There is a chance you disarm a weapon?? Small chance, but could be fun.

I think this could possibly be added to both sets..... shield and two hander

1.) Decrease chance of disarm, maybe completely with shield

2.) Add a chance to trigger "fumble" on your attacker with a successful shieldblock
2b) For Two handers.... have this similar but much less likely of a percentage. Figuring... the extra force you provide with two hands can not only add damage, but a chance of knocking a weapon free.... this being achieved by a low chance to trigger fumble.

Tretch, Haphazard Dwarf o' Malar

Glim · Post by **Glim** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 12:45 am

Timaeus wrote: How do you reload a weapon that takes two hands to reload and carry a different weapon in your other hand?

Per D&D rules a hand crossbow can be reloaded with one hand as a full round action. This doesnt necessarily help in a fight, hehe, but it is possible to reload a hand crossbow with one hand. Unsure about other crossbows, though.

Timaeus · Post by **Timaeus** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 1:10 am

Crossbow, Hand: This exotic weapon is common among rogues and others who favor stealth over power. You can draw a hand crossbow back by hand. Loading a hand crossbow is a move-equivalent action that provokes attacks of opportunity.

Nothing there says it takes one hand to reload a hand crossbow. It takes two hands to reload any crossbow. One to hold the crossbow and one to put the bolts in.

Elenthis · Post by **Elenthis** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 2:08 pm

I agree with many points in this post, and disagree with only a few, but I did want to say one thing:

I, personally have one-handed loaded a REAL crossbow (35lb draw) with one hand. Granted, 35lbs is not much of a draw, but figure in the fact that I'm roughly as strong as a 6 year old girl, I think a fighter could one-hand a 45-50lb draw crossbow.

~Elenthis.

Algon · Post by **Algon** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 3:29 pm

I was wondering while reading all of these post, does the type of shield you use determine the amount of blocking a PC does? I think that someone using a tower shield would be able to block and attack alot easier then someone using a smalll round shield.

Lerytha · Post by **Lerytha** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 5:59 pm

Elenthis, I think whilst it might be strictly possible to load a crossbow one-handed, in battle terms, it probably isn't possible to fight with one hand whilst shooting with the other hand that holds the crossbow. *shrugs* I think that was the point.

Elenthis · Post by **Elenthis** » Mon Jan 02, 2006 8:37 am

I've read a lot about it in books, especially in "Elmisnter" at one point Elminster is fighting off a band of "brigands", fires two crossbows, tosses one, grabs his shortsword and reloads the other while fending off some jerk who managed not to die. In real-life terms, There's NO WAY I could do it, but I can imagine someone might be able to pull it off. I -can- reload a crossbow with one hand with my eyes closed (Decided to try it a few minutes ago) so I can imagine one might be able to do so with minimal concentration, but a far as success while moving, not paying attention, AND having a hard draw...I agree. I think it should be possible, but not likely. I did, however, want to say one thing. Someone should be able to hold an already loaded cross-bow and a sword and use them both, discarding the crossbow after use, or beating someone with it. The end.
~Elenthis.

Glim · Post by **Glim** » Mon Jan 02, 2006 1:30 pm

Hmm, interesting Elenthis. Did you have to put the crossbow down at any time? And where were the bolts? Im not doubting you, not at all, thats really nice and I just ask alot of questions.

Right now, I know ive seen you can reload a hand crossbow with one hand as a full round action, somewhere. Will keep looking.

I think we should really get back to the main topic of this post though. *grin*

Elenthis · Post by **Elenthis** » Mon Jan 02, 2006 2:25 pm

Generally, I agree with most points on this forum

~Using a two-handed weapon should incure a very large penalty to opponent attempts to disarm.

~Using a larger sized shield should block many more attacks. (However, I feel that it is harder to bash with a larger shield. Some tower shields can weigh a great deal)

~Dual wielding should incur a to-hit penalty (IMO on both weapons), and should incur a penalty to resisting disarming.

I feel that shield/sword style is close to perfect, in the sense of attacking, and disarming. shieldwork as a skill is what I feel would repair this style.

~Two-handed weapons should IMO come with a minute chance to disarm an opponent. The weapon is generally more heavy, and if you are swinging it Heman style, holding your metal weapon might get tricky.

~Elenthis.