Two pieces of news about the deities

Dugald · Post by **Dugald** » Wed Feb 22, 2006 8:16 pm

I think rank should be more RP'd than favor farmed. It'd be too easy to have a couple guys figure out some easy favor and all of a sudden leading the faith

Kirkus · Post by **Kirkus** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 8:02 am

I don't mean to dash your criticisim Dugald but Paskry's proposed system wouldn't allow just anyone to merely take favor, well not enough favor to raise yourself from say Initiate to Hero. Remeber that the best and quickest way to gain favor IS through RP, being rewarded by your Deity, High Priest and Faith Manager. Also your faith ranks would, as I understand it, not change automatically. This would also be a function of the Deity, HP and Faith Manager.

I think Paskry's suggestion is a very, very good system suggestion.

Dugald · Post by **Dugald** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 10:32 am

I guess I just don't like the idea of something that can be gained through mechanics, to be associated with something like a rank in an organization, or in this case, faith - especially when it implies an authority to other PCs when roleplayed out.

There are some IC things that I think take precedent. I think a cleric of a deity represents more authority within that faith organization than any but the absolute greatest of non priest champions.

While Joe Fighter of Sune may really kick some butt in the name of the Ruby Rose, he shouldn't ever have influence over the religion as a whole - imo. I'd suggest faithful non priest classes are used and perceived by deities in a different way than their truly faithful (because, if you were as dedicated and favored as them, you'd have those spells too), while appreciated and revered, it's for something completely different than the priests. The warriors/mages/rogues are used as limbs, to manipulate outside things for the faith...but the priests are the heart and soul of the religion, and shouldn't be trumped by a non priest class because of a mechanical system of authority.

That's my more longwinded answer.

I don't see what is wrong with the current favor caps, and allowing the ranks to be more of a meritocracy with the faith's members than a couple Imm votes on reaching the next rank.

If it was made to smaller scale - where fighters/rogues/mages could only ever be tier one, and rangers only ever be tier two, and paladins only ever tier three...I'd be more apt to it. And even with that I think Priest classes should start at least as high as the paladin level, and maybe go up two higher for the cap - with one person as the faith leader.

But I just don't think a system like that is needed, and, I believe, would bring about a negative affect on people being peeved that no one respects their mechanical rank.

Tortus · Post by **Tortus** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 1:44 pm

I suggest you read Paskrys post again, Dugald.

Paskry · Post by **Paskry** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 2:42 pm

Let me see if I can help clear the air:

Paskry hosts a small-scale tournament in Ardeep for the followers of the Wylds. He sets himself and a couple others up as the Referees and Healers. (he gets lots of favor)
After a while his favor level is loved.
(note: his maximum would be 50 favor points.)
Sindava is there too and she is loved as well.
(400 points.)
Under the current system, if Sindava supplicated for something(or used her favor in any way) she would be at ignored.
Paskry is still at loved.

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Under my system:

Paskry would be loved at 50 FavorPints.
Sindava would be ignored at 200 FavorPoints.
Sindava would still be able to use Favor for spells and the like if it is required, and her greater value would represent how much more *in-the-faith*(so to speak) than Paskry.

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The Ranks would look something like this:

Larry Newguy: at loved (50FavorPoints)
Paskry: at loved (100FP)
Janon: at loved (200FP)
Sindava: at loved (400FP)

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The reasoning behind this idea:
At any one time, a god has several Avatars working. Some of those are busy working at god things and others are working on answering prayers of the diety's faithful. A High Priest of the High Forest would demand more of the diety's attention than say, The young druid of the Lost Woods.

I do not mean to say that the High Priest casts more spells, just that their importance demands stronger magic and blessings.

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The system I proposed would reflect your diety standing long term(rank) and short term(favorlevel). It also shows how much attention your character recieves from the Immortal.

Thanks for the Positive and Negative feedback,
Paskry

Dugald · Post by **Dugald** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 7:44 pm

I understand the system alright, it was the names of the tiers that got me. If it's unnamed tiers, that don't imply a rank, I think that would make more sense. Because your station within a faith is given to you by peers, and not so often by the diety itself (increased favor).

Of course, a micromanaging diety always /could/ do that.

Does that make sense to anyone but me? I'm worried about some fighter using that rank title to tell a cleric that he should listen to him, when a fighter (regardless of favor level), by definition of his class, isn't as faithful or as favored as a cleric or druid.

Paskry · Post by **Paskry** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 7:53 pm

In responce to your fears, if the fighter has a higher rank, then the priest would be wise to pay attention to him. Remember, not just ANYONE can get to the higher tiers. If you are inititate, and the fighter is a brother, you should listen. But you do not need to obey.

Paskry

Rhytania · Post by **Rhytania** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 8:14 pm

And exactly how would you determine what the other PC's station is? Would you see a badge or a symbol? What if this badge or symbol was stolen/lost/destroyed? Im not much in favor of adding a coded tier/rank system, Its just another thing to twink. I think if the Faith in whole wants to implement this then they should do so RP wise not code wise. Usually a person who is well established in a Faith doesnt need a badge of holiness to flash around so people would listen to him. Also I can see this working in some Faiths more specifically the Lawful Good/Evil/Nuetral but what about a few of the Faiths that are not as well organized or structured, ie Malar, Miellikki, Gruumsh? Even among the internal workings of the faith they are so loose, that different HP's and different temples even argue about the semantics of the faith amongst themselves. I think the way it should be is if a character or PC is that awesome in a Faith that he needs special attention then the HP or faith manager or whatever title/billet/rank we have created, indue that PC with a unique title (ie Protector of the Faith, Guardian of the Sacrements, Holy Roly Jujubee, you get the idea, cant think of anything atm), Something the PC can put in his title, maybe even a renamedl ring or amulet or something. Do it in front of an organzied Faith Meeting so all will know and end of story. To sit there and fight with the code just seems a bit impersonal to me wheras this should be falling under a function of a HP/Faith Manager anyway

Dugald · Post by **Dugald** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 8:15 pm

That's what I mean. No matter how high that fighter gets, in respect to canon of the Forgotten Realms setting, a Priest should always be respected more within the faith than a champion of it.

A priest is a mouth peice of a faith, who on a regular basis channels the patron's energy. He doesn't get to channel that energy because he just decided to take that class, he gets to channel that energy because he's as devout as one can be to a deity.

To put it in an everyday situation; A fighter is a patron of a temple, he attends it to learn more of his faith. A priest is a servant of the temple, he is there to teach and mold the patrons.

Being faithful, having a patron or matron associated with you, should represent two entirely different things for a priest class and a non priest class. If the desire you had with a character was to be influential within the faith, the priest class probably should have been the choice. The best a non priest class can do, is do whatever the mouthpieces (priests and the god in question) of the faith tell him to do.

Lathander · Post by **Lathander** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 8:26 pm

I'd like to thank Paskry for putting in what is obviously a great deal of time and effort on his proposed system. Such things, whether implemented or not, are useful in engaging discussion that ulitmately improves the mud for everyone.

I haven't formed an opinion yet on his idea as a whole and probably would not post it if I had one. Our imm policy rightfully has us discuss things amongst ourselves before posting anything that might be construed as "official."

I do, however, have an opinion on whether a priest is more representative of the Will of his/her deity than a non-priest. It seems pretty clear to me as an imm, and with the mortal PCs I play as well, that a priest is by nature of his/her class more devoted to a deity than any other class. To choose the path of a priest is to choose to be more aligned with that faith, more knowledeable in it, more respresentative of its ideals and very likely more favored. Paladins would fit closely here, but even they are given lessons by and watched over by priests.

Can other classes be faithful to the extreme? Absolutely. But a fighter, for instance, devouts his life to training of arms within that faith while a priest devouts his life to the faith itself.

Rhytania · Post by **Rhytania** » Thu Feb 23, 2006 8:26 pm

Nods to Dugald. You hit it on the nose.

A lot of times with the mud we loose sight of the mysticism and mystery involved with looking at one class from another. With the option to create as many characters and classes as you want, the other classes seem to loose a bit of the luster or mystery they once had. A Priest above all other classes is held to a higher standard then anyone else. We also have to remember that our chars should not always be played as the most high and holy patron of said faith as that is highly unlikely. A fighter can at times screw up royaly, and do something that contradicts his faith. Well he can seek atonement from the priests make a few sacrifices and suffer a few penalties. A Priest will know instantly as their Diety will shun them. Preists no matter how low or high a level will know when they are on their Dieties hit list. A Paladin will fall under this same rule as they are tied closely with their dieties as well. Imagine having all this power and abilities that you have enjoyed and practiced your whole life, then all of sudden poof! they are gone. That is why priests walk the straight and narrow, and that is why priests have their powers from said Dieities, becasuse they have to. Not like th eother classes that do it becuase they want to.

EDIT:
*looks behind to see if Lathander was reading what I was typing as we are thinking the same thing.

Kirkus · Post by **Kirkus** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 9:11 am

Eeek I must have missed a day............ first Dugald, actually I am going to respond in reverse. A deities mouthpiece is whoever that deity wants it to be. They have no respect for a labeled class. There are deities who might only use fighters or rangers or wielders of the arcane. Priest is merely another label. Priests like Lathander said wholey devote their lives to a deity but so do divine champions and divine seekers and divine disciples and arcane devotee's. They each have their own ways of serving. A priest does that by preaching, spreading the word. Fighters by defending the cause or advancing it.

Now on to your older post..... he he he. This one I really like. You think no matter what, a non-priest should bow down/ derfer to a priests. I say you go make an evil priest have him follow Talos. Come meet Kirkus, see what happens. I am sorry, I am not trying to bully you. But here is my rational. Kirkus has been serving Talos for 60 years. You come join the faith and expect for him to defer to YOU? Oh an just so you know, in cannon FR ie the Campaign setting or other source books that show stats for characters, I have seen characters that were called the equivelant to our HP, and they had lots of ranks is other classes. We just don't have multi-classing to support that.

It was my understanding that a faith level wouldn't just move on its own. That would be done by a faith manager, high priest or deity. There fore once again you cannot advance without their approval...... ie rp. So you can't just go clear out the Howling Peaks and suddenly you are the Grand Master Hub-a-dub High Priest of your Faith.

Oh and if you got your Campaign settings out, turn to page 7. Let us study Elminster. Male Human (Chosen of Mystra) Ftr1/Rog2/Clr3/Wiz20/Acm5/Epic4. So He is a wizard that has dabbled in other stuff. So some new priest of Mystra has presidence over this mere wizard. According to what you have said. But wait..... he is a Chosen of Mystra. I think that adds some weight to his importance. I think this wizards time serving, studying and following the orders of Mystra have given him a little more importance over that brand new priest who has just scratched the surface of the Faith they are in.

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 9:59 am

Not a comment about the system, but more about the place of priests in a church, and a reaction to Kirkus's post.

You are biasing the discussion slightly by only considering novice priests.
Obviously, what you say is true for novice priests. But I agree with Dugald in that priests are very different from other classes because they get all their powers handed to them (by the deity), while others "just" work to be able to wield a blade correctly, to master high level spells, or to attack from the shadows with deadly precision.

Now, what does it mean? It means that, when you meet a level 50 ranger/fighter/wizard/bard/thief, you meet someone powerful, yes, you meet someone who has most likely worked hard to reach that level of power, yes, you meet someone who might just cut you to slices, yes, but you are not meeting someone who was "divinely touched".

Imagine this: The Imms suddenly decide to change the level-up system. Rangers, fighters, wizards, bards, and thieves can still just walk to a mob and type 'train level'. But from now on, priests and paladins can only train up a level when their god allows them to (that is, their god must issue a special command 'allow fzoul level' before they can 'train level').

With that system in place, meeting a level 50 priest would be quite impressive, indeed. That means that his/her deity chose to reward their roleplay with an 'allow X level' 49 times!

That's what a priest is/should be ICly. They don't level up "on their own", they level up when their deity accepts to give them more power. Or, at least, that's how I see it. And that's also why I'm so keen on making sure that those who play priests on FK actually know well the tenets of their faith, can roleplay properly, and did not just think "Yeah, let's pick up option C - Priest. They kick ass with harm!"

With that interpretation, it's clear that a high level priest would be quite impressive, because he's actually god-made. Now, obviously, meeting a Chosen is also impressive. But that's because of the same reason: he did not just "worked hard" to become a Chosen, he was *made* a Chosen (duh, he was chosen) by the deity.

Now, for the particular case of evil faiths, even though you might not truly feel like bowing in front of a high level priest of your faith, I would think that most evil would still do so "in appearance". Then, of course, they might just plot to kill the high priest later, which would show their god that the priest was actually kind of weak, and did not deserve the position. But, still, being a high level priest should command some respect, even in evil faiths. After all, how many persons did they have to crush/backstab/betray/kill/cleverly remove to get the favour of their god?

Dugald · Post by **Dugald** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 11:00 am

Of course I would never suggest that every follower of a religion should always bow to the authority of their faiths chosen clerics/druids. But what I would suggest, to everyone to ever look at FR for a setting in any medium, that if a non priest tried to tell a priest how it is with their faith (as per the rank system would suggest) - that non priest should be stared at for an uncomfortable length of time.

And sometimes it's very hard to play a humbled, I don't know everything I do ooc role, I understand that. As a player I'm sure you, Kirkus, know more about many dieities than plenty of the players. But that doesn't mean, literally, that Kirkus knows better the will of a diety than a character whose job, by definition, is to carry out the will of said diety.

There are plenty of situations where metagaming for the sake of the setting, is a good thing.

------

Elminstir is a third level cleric in that book. Implying he is a higher level cleric than a level 1 cleric

If he didn't have any levels in cleric, he would be less favored and guided in the faith, correct. In 3rd ed & 3.5, multi-classing doesn't diminish your class status - unless you're a paladin.

But I think we're miscommunicating on something major here. I wouldn't ever say that a fighter/mage/rogue is less important to the faith's goals than a given cleric; that'd be false. But value to the faith is completely seperate than knowledge of the faith. Jim Kickpants, with the same stats as the Big E can do things even a faith's avatar can't - that makes him immensely important...but he is that important because he's guided in the right direction. Left to his own devices, without atoning (somethings you can't atone without a high level priest), without guidance, he loses his import to the faith.

Non priest classes of a faith are like kick butt vehicles. Absolutely no function without a driver...unless you're optimus prime. Which would be awesome.

So listen carefully and fulfill the wishes of your clerics and druids of your faith, following through with their will is the quickest way to get franchised player tagged by a deity.

Rhytania · Post by **Rhytania** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 12:37 pm

Hehe franchise player of said diety! I like that. Im backing you 100 percent Dugald. I like people who rp their characters as NOT being the most faithful and pompous follower of said diety. it just seems like it brings in a whole new dimension heck, even if they mess up a little thats what gives your players depth and character development. Rhy has messed up a few times and is always walking that fine line between right and wrong, but she has paid for it in more ways than one. I would like to see more characters treat faith as it is, a belief system with its ethics, morals and code that are in place for guidance. Sometimes I cant help but think that when PC's play the all mighty high and pompous follower of said diety it makes me wonder if they are trying to multiclass as a paladin. I find that a little 2 dimensional as the role and purpose of faith and religion is to guide you and keep you from making errors and help you learn to stay the course. Heck if no one made any mistakes and EVERYONE understould all the Mysteries and teachings of said diety than whats the point of even having clergy or priests?

As far as the BIG E. Yeah hes all mighty powerful and uber strong, but dont think for a minute that he hasnt paid the price for it, but even he tips his hat in deep respect for Mystras clergy as you do not see him trumping any of her high priests or playing the I'm more powerful and holier than you role.

Algon · Post by **Algon** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 1:47 pm

I could see the some type of rank being established in certain faiths ...especially Tempus. But I do not believe it would be something that would work for everyone of them. It takes alot of RP for someone to be considered a higher up in the faith, and I dont like the idea that someone who has figured out exactly how to gain favor and fast could possibly become a higher up in the rank of a church. Faiths have High Preist...now perhaps the next step down would be the Faith Leaders...One man/woman cannot keep watch over every scattered temple, so he can deligate his seconds in command to help him out with this. Taking some of the pressure off of him...its a very common thing.
Now as far as the im a priest so I am better then you simple fighters/rogues/rangers/wizards. A presit spends his/her whole life dedicated to his/hers faiths and learning that faiths ways and teachings. But the other classes do this as well, the only difference is their power comes in the form of spells and their bond with said Deity is closer then your typical say fighter. BUT, that does not make them stronger in faith then the other followers .
Algon has spent his entire life in the service of Tempus, some 20 year old priest comes in and thinks he should be high up on the chain because he is a priest, Algon is likely to smack him around a little .

I believe that they should be shown respect because they are close to their Deities, but that doesnt mean they are automatically higher up then the other followers.

Oh, never got an answer, since healing prayers will not loose favor for evils now, what about helpful stat prayers? ie bulls strength and trollish vigor.

Gwain · Post by **Gwain** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 2:05 pm

A sheppard is only as good as his flock. A priest does not make a religion. Any priest be he good or evil is responsible to his followers, he can take it apon himself to discipline or teach others of the faith and keep them in line, he should however take stalk of other people's opinions and concerns. It is one thing to be respected and revered, you need to respect others. Sometimes you get into conflict or there is someone that has a greater knowledge of a said deity, the best thing may be to learn from them or to acknowledge that you are still learning. In my experience there are two kinds of favour, the kind that exists in your score and the kind that you carry around in spirit. That favour comes with doing your best to rp and never worrying about status. If you are patient do what you need to you will gain favour, slowly but you will gain it. No need to rush, no one is racing lads.

Paskry · Post by **Paskry** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 4:21 pm

True enough Gwain. I think that another reason I noticed this was because if you go into a temple you can see NPCs like these:

High Priest of JoJo
Acolyte of JoJo
Priest of JoJo
Young lady who is cleaning

Now, as a Player you know immediately, who is in charge. But in PC roleplays, such is not always the case. If you were a young player and you walked into Ardeep with:

Sindava
Jerry
Tom
Joe

How would you know whom is in the Highest Favor?
And I understand that it would not work in ALL cases.

Paskry

Note: Algon, Ellian answered you on page 1, about halfway down.

Gwain · Post by **Gwain** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 5:51 pm

I think you would'nt have to know. If someone is favoured or unfavourable it will be determined by how they rp it. I don't understand the purpose for mortals to understand favour. If you are favoured then it is seen in the eye of your deity, if he or she chooses to bestow title or priveledge on you publicly then it's known. I think when you walk through a forest looking for the head of a faith or the most favoured follower you need to ask icly someone and initiate rp, I don't think church hierarchy needs to be focused on favour level but on who is willing to listen to someone else. Work together and compete in the sense of rp and not favour, favour is expendable but rp endures.

Kirkus · Post by **Kirkus** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 7:37 pm

Algon said some of what I was trying to say better than I could. There is no mistaking that a level 50 priest should get more respect, they have earned it. But they arn't going to be level 50 with out putting in some time and effort.

This new system for priests is pretty cool Dal, one question though. Will that only take place after level 10 or so, after the pc has chosen a deity?

basically my point earlier was this, the clerics of every deity, according to stuff I have read tend to multiclass as something that aligns with their deities goals and characteristics. Why? becuase studying and praying is all well and good, and yes they are hand picked by their god. But to make them selves more useful to that god they must learn other things too.

But

We don't have a mulitclass system. For reasons, GOOD reasons.

Basically Dugald I want to respond to your thoughts about my rp but for particular reason I am going to refrain from doing so. But here is what I will say. You have no idea the rp that has gone on inside the church of Talos. Untill you do you will never know the depth of Talassan knowledge that 60 years have brought Kirkus.

And just for the record I think its pretty one dimensional to think that if you are a fighter you simply walk the world saying "dur di der, Hack slash hack slash, kill kill kill."

I like how Gwain put it, a sheppard is only as good as his flock. Or in Dugalds terms, you better have a vehicle to drive.