Two pieces of news about the deities

Amalia · Post by **Amalia** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 11:37 pm

If the specific RP that has gone on in the church of Talos has made it such that Kirkus knows the will of Talos very well-- and that is acknowledged even by priests of high standing-- then, sure, Kirkus has every right to give instruction to younger priests. I think Dugald's point is that in general, priests will be the ones dedicated to understanding their deity and passing down his or her orders. It is of course acceptable for another class to take on that function if RP dictates-- but a ranking system that simply *gives* them that authority without them doing something special (or having something special happen to them) seems a bit off.

Zach · Post by **Zach** » Fri Feb 24, 2006 11:51 pm

wow... i missed a lot on this post...

I do not like the idea of Faith levels. But IC it would be hard to explain if Sindava supplicates something and then needs to heal someone or use her faith to raise someone... how to explain why she can not, someone as high IC faith and well renounded as she can not heal someone or raise someone.

As for raising your levels IC by way of faith for priest is VERY good idea.... after a certion level... say for every level above 34 you would need to ask of your God to raise your level. To prove yourself worthy of this. But then again... how would you know a level 50 priest from a level 40 priest? It is all IC how you should be treated. You should treat a priest not because of her status but because she is a priest and you should respect her for what she is doing for your faith. Just because she is low in level does not mean she does not have a different POV on her Gods faith then you and you can not learn from then. If you block their POV on your God then you are being stubbern in your ways that you follow for you God.
Faith should not only be what is on your Score but what is in your heart and your reputation you have for your faith is not on your Score sheat but the way you RP, who you RP. The moment i saw and RPed with Sindava i was not greeted and did not know of her High Status with Corellon but i respected her for the way she RPed her status and her Faith...

Umm... i think that is all i had to say

Gwain made a damn good point as for "Work together and compete in the sense of rp and not favour, favour is expendable but rp endures."

Rhytania · Post by **Rhytania** » Sat Feb 25, 2006 12:19 am

I always RP losing favour due to supplications and those rare times where I have to call an avatar as I channeled so much of my dieties power through myself that it will take time for my body to be able to channel anything more than just my basic spells. As that is what the prayers do, channel the divine power from said diety through yourself, it gives a bit of flair and makes more IC sense as to why I cant cast spells higher than the basic ones

Zach · Post by **Zach** » Sat Feb 25, 2006 12:31 am

Rhytania wrote:I channeled so much of my dieties power through myself that it will take time for my body to be able to channel anything more than just my basic spells.

What this makes me think is you are not "ignored" by your God... it's just so much of your Gods power passed through you that your body can not handle a "powerful" prayer... correct?

If so... i never thought to RP it out that way and I like that more then saying something like "i can't pray for that because my lord does not favour me enough for this" or something on those lines where it would put doubt in other followers into your faith that they are being preached to by someone who's God has no faith in said priest... nice... thanks for the tip

Kirkus · Post by **Kirkus** » Sat Feb 25, 2006 8:16 am

Zach brings up a good point about how do you know a high level member of the faith is a high level member of the faith. In theory upon being made a member of a faith you would learn that, this group has been following our deity longer than you and this group is younger in the faith than you are. So on and so fourth. In theory that works but in all practical purposes it dosn't. Noone meets every member of their faith. There are peope that were members before that have faded into myth and memory and we will do the same, hopefully one some long and distant day. That is what I see those levels fixing. They are good because they create a heirarchy in the church that exists everywhere. But as so many of you seem to be worried about, someone could go and train up their level and become the new High Priest.... NO. When the system was proposed it said levels would be raised not by trainers but by Faith managers and High Priests. If a High Priest wants to go and give their job away and are stupid enough to allow someone to do so without earning the job then the HP dosn't deserve to be HP. Basically this system won't allow someone to raise as fast as possible. Their speed of assention in the ranks are controlled by the HP and the Faith Managers and the Deity of course.

Here is a new question.

You loyally serve your god for many years, and eventually raise your favour to the loved status. But then you supplicate one item and that drops your favor to ignored. This dosn't make sence to me. Yeah we need a cap on how much favor we use or else we would have every tom dick and harry running arround with an endless supply of what should be a faiths most revered items.

I know someone mentioned earlier I think, of making favour like your health and stamina meters. So once you are loved your loved till you do something to decrease your favor.

ok to summ all this up........ its late and I like to babble

Dugald · Post by **Dugald** » Sat Feb 25, 2006 8:48 am

I think you may be taking the words "loved" and "ignored" too literal. After you hit that loved level, just use the assumption that the reason you can't do what you use to do is because a mortal body can only channel so much divine power - and you need to rejuvinate spiritually.

There are necessary evils in video games, especially mudds. It'd be complicated to code in, after you hit loved and supplicate, "you can't do that right now, but I still love you". IC it doesn't literally mean, what it says.

Back to the rank thing and relative favor; there are people who take months to get to loved - because they choose to play a certain way. And there are those who take weeks to get to loved, because they choose to play a certain way. The people who hit that loved level faster, and show some level "religious rp", will go up the ranks exponentially faster than the slowpoke. And still after that, it'd still be a system given rank within the faith, and not one put on you by your peers...and those who favor farm like crazy, will have more opportunities to show "religious rp" to advance. Leaving the other folk way behind and looking at their leaders saying "Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government."

Kirkus · Post by **Kirkus** » Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:56 am

I don't know how many times I can say this with out my head exploding but one more try won't kill me..... The original post said that a deity could raise a pc's level. Now I have been saying that a deity or a hp or faith manager could raise a faith level, just to spread the demand over three tears of people. Grasp this concept, let it settle in for a bit. Now if a pc has to wait for approval from anyone than they can't raise their level as fast as they want.

If it were up to me, I would say this. 'Faith managers, you can raise any follower up to the 30th level. Throw in some light quests like go do this or that. High Priest I want you to watch closely those wishing to raise from level 30 to level 40. I especially want you to test those between 35 and 40. Once you are pleased with a followers performance in his or her duties send them to a faith manager to raise their level. I will personally wath those from 40 to 50. But I will use you, HP and the Faith Managers to test them further.

So tell me, how does that not enhance rp? how is that not peer reviewed?
How is it not beneficial when Dal said that the best way to get favor is by imm run rp, let the guys and gals participating in those things advance and lead the mudd. Why should we all have to wait on the guys like me that only get a chance to mudd 2 or 3 hours a week not a day. I never want to hear fk not wanting to do something for fear of it being unfair to those like me who rarely get to play more than 1 hour a week.

I don't think it would be too hard to code. It would be pretty much just like the glory system. With minor changes here and there. with current favor being how much you have to spend on stuff like supplicated items and recalls and powerful spells. And the total being your level in the faith.

Hviti · Post by **Hviti** » Sat Feb 25, 2006 12:50 pm

How about people who stay unfaithed? Would they be stuck at level ten or whatever the pre-faith level would be, or would this only apply to priests (which I could understand since they ought to be on average more involved with their faith)?

Rhytania · Post by **Rhytania** » Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:51 pm

Kirkus: For some strange reason you last post finally made sense. Let me see if I can break it down further. First their will be 2 systems, a favour level (that we currently have now, that will remain unchanged), the favour will gain/decrease exactly as done now. Then their will be a new system added called faith rank or something to that effect, where NO MATTER what the PC does, this will not go up or down unless through the intervention of a Diety, HP, or Faith Manager. Everything else remains the same with the auto favour systems, no matter how many times a PC will rasie favour or drop favour from supplications, and whatnot his Church Rank will remain the same.

I think that makes sense, at least to me that is, but dont know got bad hangover. Anyway, This could be a good thing, but honestly what would be the benefit of having a high church rank vs a low church rank? do you get better favour gains? cheaper items at your local temple shop? Other than the fact of you can RP telling someone else "Im a higher level rank than you" but cant we do that now? I see the idea and I see where it would be nice for all of us Older Chars to finally have something to show for years of hard work and for them to have some weight and pull, but it still boils down to whats the benefit of having this (coded) vs not having it (uncoded)?

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Sat Feb 25, 2006 4:02 pm

My example about priests able to level up only when their god allows them to do so was purely fictional. I only gave it to try and better explain the difference I see between priests (or paladins) and non-"divine" characters. There's no plan at all to use it on the mud.

Kirkus · Post by **Kirkus** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 1:14 am

Dalvyn I think the idea was good. It firmly establishes the point that priests power come from their god. It makes seeing a level 45-50 priest a thing of amazement. You know that guy is backed by his god.

Rhytania · Post by **Rhytania** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 2:07 am

I agree Kirkus, Nothing is sadder than seeing a level 50 priest that has no idea of the simplest precepts of their faith.

Kirkus · Post by **Kirkus** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:00 am

Plus it doesn't have to be just a deity pops in and priest says "hey boss, I want my next level!" and deity says "Ok, here you go." This is how I see it. Now forgive me, but I always equate things like this to how I picture a Talassan rp going down. Now I won't give you all the details about the baloons and songs and drinks and partying that goes on, you have to join the faith to experience that..... Anyway. You can skip the next part, I will summerize it at the end to save time.

Basically the rp would begin with an avatar of Talos appearing and the he might kick off the party by saying "I am feeling rambunctious and disorderly today!" We would all cheer, and Talos would continue "so for the next tenday I want you all to pray an hour after midday and once two hours before dawn!" the time change for praying should be random as is Talos's whims. He then might say something like this " I also want each of you to go out and kill me a Gondar, and just to spice things up a bit.... Oghmanytes count double!" at this there would be cheering and boasting and general reverie as the party begins. Then basically Talos would begin handing out individual rp for the upper level characters who need to level up. He would reward the levels earned and then the party would continue.

Basically the deity would arrive and in their own ways would conduct the meeting. Perhaps tell his/her followers what to do or start or guild some longterm rp for the faith. Then depending on the size of the faith he could take care of all of the levels needed to be given out or if the group is too large take care of just the upper levels, to make them more special. If that was the case he could leave the lower levels for the HP and Faith Managers.

I just see this as a way to tighten the faiths, make them more aware of all aspects of the faith. And even to a degree more aware of aspects of all the faiths. Here is my favorite example.... the Church of Malar has a ritual, the Feast of the Stag, where they are supposed to go hunt plenty of game, then invite all to come share in the feast where they pledge to hunt and provide for the needy durring the comming winter.

Now most won't have stuff like that, and I really don't know where that came from.... anyway. Dalvyns idea=good idea. It encourages more active faith involvement.

Paskry · Post by **Paskry** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 2:59 pm

First off,
Good job Kirkus! You converted Rhytania!

Now, yes, I believe that a diety's intervention to enable a PCs explevel to accessable for the next level would work... if the said IMM is in the same timezone. More on that later: Perhaps we can have those posts that reflect this commentary be copied over to the Gaining Levels discussion?

And as for Favorlevels,
OOC: Yes, the PC can do nothing but RP until the Faith Team decides that they have done enough to get to the next tier and they deserve a higher Favor limit.
IC: Once you have spent years under the guidance of the Priestly Followers of your faith and you have worked towards the tenants of your diety while being noticed by the leaders of your Faith, you will be granted more of your diety's attention.

Now, I can also see how some more faith specific quests could be brought in for each echelon.

Paskry

Argentia · Post by **Argentia** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 5:21 pm

About the idea of deity-controlled priest levelling...

In theory, it is a great idea. In theory. You must also take into account the activity of imms and the frequency at which they play. There may be some Gods who are not very active, and their faith managers do the faithing for them. There may be other faiths where the God is not active, and there is no faith manager(Or even followers). If a priest was to join an "inactive faith" it would spell stagnation for them.

I feel like too much emphasis is being put on the levels. When you look at a priest, you cannot tell if they are level 50, level 49, or level 37. You can maybe guess by their equipment, but there's no sure way to tell. I don't feel that a priest's respect is earned through levels. It is earned by how devout they are and their knowledge of the faith. I can think of at least two excellent examples of priests who are widely respected as an authority on their faiths, but never to my knowledge reached L50. I can also think of a priest or two who I assume to be L50 because they spend their time twinking, but rarely have I ever seen any appropriately priestly RP from them. Those sort of characters do not have the respect in their faith like other priests who dedicate themselves do. You're right, Rhytania, it is sad to see a L50 priest who knows bubcis about their faith, but those sort of people miss out on all the fun. They rarely are included in large RPs, it is very unlikely that they will be chosen as a faith manager, and they generally do not hold a lot of respect in the faith community(And outside it, too). It isn't their level that determines what they receive and how they're treated on the mud, it's their level of RP and involvement.(And killing things doesn't count as getting involved.

)

I guess I just feel that levels are secondary. Let a character's RP decide who they are.

Kirkus · Post by **Kirkus** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 7:55 pm

As always Argentia you bring up some good points. If you will permit me.... well who's stopping me right hahah, anyway let me answer your questions.

I can see where many if not most would see this as a level heavy system. But what I saw in it was not an emphasis in leveling but in quality rp. You can't level unless you rp. The option of twinking your way to level 50 would be pretty hard to do. As for a priests prestige and respect inside and out of the faith, it is still if not even more so rp based. For if you are looking at levels once again you can't get to 50 with out rping your way there. And hopefully through rping your way up the levels you will gain some talent at rp, develop a rp that will be respected. You no longer will be able to NOT know about your faith.

As for inactive imms and hp's thats something that I don't feel is my place to answer so I will leave that for them to address.

Nearraba · Post by **Nearraba** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 8:27 pm

Argie, I couldn't agree more. It is almost always obvious which characters are the ones whom level up as quickly as possible and which ones take their time having fun rping. Respect is earned through rp not lvl. I would much rather have a well rped priest at my side when I was dying rather than a higher lvl priest that doesnt really rp, for the greater rp chances.

And as Hivit asked before, If this system would occur, what would happen to the nonefaithed priests, or even the priests that are faithful to uncoded dietys?

Amalia · Post by **Amalia** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 8:40 pm

Perhaps there could be one extra deity slot, provided there is someone who could fill it? A slot for someone who can act as deities not represented, and perhaps forward prayers from unfaithed priests to the appropriate deity or deities that would actually pay attention to it if they make an undirected prayer.

People would still have incentive to choose a represented deity, since one person playing all the unrepresented ones wouldn't be able to make appearances, at least not with any frequency, or grant special powers to priests of any given unrepresented deity. But for those who really want to RP faith to a deity that's not available, someone who could at least take their most critical prayers and consider them would be an awesome addition, I think.

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Mon Feb 27, 2006 10:25 pm

Well, sure, experienced players can distinguish between twink priests and roleplayers. But this might not be the case for newbies. If the first character a newbie meets is a high-level twink priest who does not now anything about his/her faith, I think it gives a false impression of what the mud is (should be, aims to be).

Kirkus · Post by **Kirkus** » Tue Feb 28, 2006 4:40 am

And this would... I don't want to say eliminate that because there will always be that one guy who finds a way.....but this would minimize that. If you have to rp to get a level then you are going to at least retain something after a certain ammount of time. I mean back before I started buying source books and what not.... when Kirkus first joined the church of Talos I couldn't keep straight who and what were my enemies. All I had was the generic " I hate Chauntea, they grow stuff and I am all about breaking stuff." But over time, even before I delved into my wallet and forked over the cash to buy books, I started to understand more. Why, because I rped with oters of my faith and learned from that.