I know this isn't really part of canon, but with spells at all sorts of levels now and some not being able to be affected by presistent spell, being a wizard with spells affecting gets kinda inconvenient for both oneself and a party when one has to stop every so often and renew a detection spell or otherwise. Therefore I propose a feat by which all spells cast by a wizard upon him/herself can run for equal duration (perhaps a long time to a very long time) so that one can know when one will have to remove oneself from a group or so on.
Edit: Or, as an alternative, could presistent spell apply to spells cast upon oneself?
Equal Duration
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Rhytania
- Sword Grand Master
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I agree Hviti. It seams that having invested very costly feat points have pretty much been cut down to nearly nothing. Although before it may have been a bit of an overkill to have spells last longer than 24+ hours of gametime to perhaps an hour of game time now, perhaps we can find a better median. Although the new spell system is great and its a definite move forward, I think that some of the spell buffs should last a tad bit longer than they usually do. I say allow persistent spell to affect oneself or others as well, with the new code only High level spellcasters would be able to do this anyway. Also If a spell is feated to the point of going over the 9 level max make it uncastable. So that Spellcasters will have to pick and choose whcih feats the apply to what.
The problem with Persistent spell as a feat isn't as it is now. The problem was it being improperly coded previously. Persistent Spell, as it was taken from 3rd Ed D&D, was not intended to enhance a spell that could be cast upon someone else.
Game designers put the limitation to the types of spells so affected, mainly divination and utility spells; as putting them on enhancement and defensive spells is unbalancing, giving what might as well equate to permanent resistances, immunities, and higher stats. For the casting of the spells is virtually inconsequential, and the spells regenerate long before the spells would wear off.Wizards of the Coast wrote:A persistent spell has a duration of 24 hours. The persistent spell must have a personal range or a fixed range (for example, comprehend languages or detect magic).
"There is no safety for honest men except by believing all possible evil of evil men."
Kregor - Ranger of Tangled Trees
Rozor - Lady Luck's Duelist
Tygen - Ranger-Bard of Mielikki
Kregor - Ranger of Tangled Trees
Rozor - Lady Luck's Duelist
Tygen - Ranger-Bard of Mielikki
Yeah, I don't have a problem with shorter durations, just very unequal ones. As in, if you have, say, detect magic, bulls strength, and true sight affecting you, all three of those will wear off with probably 5 minute differences, and therefore become inconvenient stopping points, especially if in a group (most wizards would be presumable prepared for a couple hours before venturing into the OSoW or something like that, not will spells lasting 5-10 min IC. Also, a bunch of spells like resists and so on which might be used in PK situations only last "a while" and therefore, if any RP was conducted during the PK, would wear off long before that was concluded and combat began (and yes, you could ask the opponent to be reasonable and let you renew your spells, but then every wiz. PK would end up in such an unIC situation. Ditto grouping. Therefore, I wouldn't need/want/request 2 hours RL durations, but perhaps something reasonable like 1/2 hour-45 minutes, at least closer to the length of a group RP going into Feebov's/OSoW or a comparable place (and yes, I have seen times where persistent spells applied to a group have worn off before the group was finished-rare, yes, but possible).
As a wizard player, the idea that I can no longer put stone skin on persistence... indeed, the idea that I cannot march in, with "battle spells surrounding me" frightened me no end.
But after my initial "Oh, Good God..." reaction when by bulls strength threatens to last "a while" instead of "a very, very, very, very long time" (or however many veryies there are), I thought about it some more.
With the new spell list, there are a lot (Oh, Good God, a lot) of new spells. These will give wizards spectacular power. I know we wizard players have always dreamed of being able to click our fingers and stop time, before raising off the ground and sending that fighter into oblivion with a well-placed wail of the banshee... I know I have. And now we get that chance! Huzzah!
That was my first thought.
My second thought, was this: Bull's strength has changed. Instead of the wizard and the party spending sometimes up to 30mins before an adventure, "spelling up" we now have a realistic, fun way of spreading out spells. Instead of having persistencated spells upon everyone, we wizards will have to economize. So, we wait till we face the baalor, or the king of trolls, before casting the single bulls strength upon the fighter, enabling him to fight easier. Or, we wait until another occurence, to cast slink to let the thief move faster. Letting wizards' spells last for shorter times will (I think) add to the effect, as it were.
I'm not sure if I am correct or not, but I think bull's strength is meant (in Player's Handbook D&D) to be only a short duration spell.
*shrugs*
My final thought? Ouch, it hurts my pride to see a long-term mage casting slink that lasts "a while", but at least its different, and approaching a more correct version of the spell.
I hope -some- of that made sense.
But after my initial "Oh, Good God..." reaction when by bulls strength threatens to last "a while" instead of "a very, very, very, very long time" (or however many veryies there are), I thought about it some more.
With the new spell list, there are a lot (Oh, Good God, a lot) of new spells. These will give wizards spectacular power. I know we wizard players have always dreamed of being able to click our fingers and stop time, before raising off the ground and sending that fighter into oblivion with a well-placed wail of the banshee... I know I have. And now we get that chance! Huzzah!
That was my first thought.
My second thought, was this: Bull's strength has changed. Instead of the wizard and the party spending sometimes up to 30mins before an adventure, "spelling up" we now have a realistic, fun way of spreading out spells. Instead of having persistencated spells upon everyone, we wizards will have to economize. So, we wait till we face the baalor, or the king of trolls, before casting the single bulls strength upon the fighter, enabling him to fight easier. Or, we wait until another occurence, to cast slink to let the thief move faster. Letting wizards' spells last for shorter times will (I think) add to the effect, as it were.
I'm not sure if I am correct or not, but I think bull's strength is meant (in Player's Handbook D&D) to be only a short duration spell.
*shrugs*
My final thought? Ouch, it hurts my pride to see a long-term mage casting slink that lasts "a while", but at least its different, and approaching a more correct version of the spell.
I hope -some- of that made sense.
If you have knowledge, let others light their candles with it.
--Sir Winston Churchill
"This place is boring, I'm gonna go eat whatever I can find laying on the ground"
-- Hoildric
Cacie asks Larethiel 'Did that air just bow to you?
--Sir Winston Churchill
"This place is boring, I'm gonna go eat whatever I can find laying on the ground"
-- Hoildric
Cacie asks Larethiel 'Did that air just bow to you?
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Argentia
- Sword Grand Master
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Concerning spells like Bull's Strength... Looking in my handy-dandy manual it says that Bulls Strength lasts for 1hr/level. This means a level 12 wizard would be affected by an unfeated Bull's Strength for 12 hours. On the mud, and I'm talking game time, not real life time, "a while" can be anywhere from 30 minutes to 2 hours... Which, for a level 50 wizard, is very far from their 50 hours... Granted, there is a level difference between AD&D(20's being the epic level) and FK(50 being the highest) but I still feel that a L50 wizard's Bull's Strength should last more than "a while". Just my thought.
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and go well with ketchup.
Actually, both my 3.5 Ed Players Handbook, and the D20 System Reference Document say 1 minute/level, not 1 hour.Argentia wrote:Concerning spells like Bull's Strength... Looking in my handy-dandy manual it says that Bulls Strength lasts for 1hr/level.
Lerytha makes good points. Bulls strength, et al, are not intended to be substitutes for real stats, they are, in fact intended for short burts of added ability for a difficult task. Anyone who's ever played Neverwinter Nights, and quaffed a potion of bulls strength should note how quickly that nice little 4 point boost goes away.
Do also notice that also added into the spell lists were the Mass versions of many spells (ie bulls strength, slink, etc), which will apply the enhancement to the entire group. They will have to be found and trained, but that is another encouragement for travelling with the group. rattle off one spell, and the entire party is enhanced. This is intended for up to the minute useage, to give the party that extra OOMPH when the fight ahead looks challenging. Likewise will all the mass curing spells work for the cleric who needs to keep his party healed during that difficult battle. All of this was designed to make wizards and priests valuable, if not indispensible take-alongs on an adventuring party.
"There is no safety for honest men except by believing all possible evil of evil men."
Kregor - Ranger of Tangled Trees
Rozor - Lady Luck's Duelist
Tygen - Ranger-Bard of Mielikki
Kregor - Ranger of Tangled Trees
Rozor - Lady Luck's Duelist
Tygen - Ranger-Bard of Mielikki
Just because a rule is in the third edition rulebooks doesn't mean it has to be used explicitly as it is stated, or even used at all, for that matter. Before I get flamed with posts relating to blasphemy and degredation of the rules, I would remind everyone that the books are intended to be guides for dungeon masters, not holy documents to be secreted in hidden repositories and fought over in wars.
Most dungeon masters overlook scores of rules in the interest of fun, and in that same vein I think it's important to remember that this is a game. It simply isn't fun to stop and recast your spells on your party every five minutes, while on the other hand it is a whole lot of fun to romp around in a dungeon with a decreased amount of difficulty because you took the time to prepare you or your party with spells. I really just don't see the point in taking away persistent casts of spells on others. No one in the game that I have seen is always buffed because they're friends with a wizard. Anyway, back to recasting spells...if you have to do it every five minutes, you'll never get anything done. The obvious counterargument is to suggest that one simply does not use those spells, but it falls quite flat when put up against the fact that mages are really only truly effective with the support of others, as in a group, as has been discussed in another thread recently.
I really don't think that there's going to be a large increase in wizards being played in the game until it's more fun to play one. That is not to say that I don't like the new spell system or the new spells, I love them very much, and I am almost giddy with excitement over seeing them all in action in the game--kudos to all those involved in their development.
Most dungeon masters overlook scores of rules in the interest of fun, and in that same vein I think it's important to remember that this is a game. It simply isn't fun to stop and recast your spells on your party every five minutes, while on the other hand it is a whole lot of fun to romp around in a dungeon with a decreased amount of difficulty because you took the time to prepare you or your party with spells. I really just don't see the point in taking away persistent casts of spells on others. No one in the game that I have seen is always buffed because they're friends with a wizard. Anyway, back to recasting spells...if you have to do it every five minutes, you'll never get anything done. The obvious counterargument is to suggest that one simply does not use those spells, but it falls quite flat when put up against the fact that mages are really only truly effective with the support of others, as in a group, as has been discussed in another thread recently.
I really don't think that there's going to be a large increase in wizards being played in the game until it's more fun to play one. That is not to say that I don't like the new spell system or the new spells, I love them very much, and I am almost giddy with excitement over seeing them all in action in the game--kudos to all those involved in their development.
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Dalvyn
- Sword Grand Master
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Re: Persistent spell
I am actually very glad it was changed. I got really tired of seeing 90% of the characters affected with long-duration bulls strength, slink, trollish vigour, friends, mnemonic enhancer, sagacity, and fly. Why group up if all you have to do is ask a "friendly" wizard to boost you with all those spells and you're good to go for 10 days camping in Hartsvale? There were several posts and IC communications that indicated that this was a bad thing to do, yet some casters continued to bestow those spells with persistent turned on... so that's how persistent spell was changed.
Re: spells with different durations
Spell duration depends on many things: your skill level, your character level, and the definition of the spell itself. Some last for a very short time, others last for a long time. The durations have been set to create a balanced system, along with spell level and potency.
You do not have to rest and stop the whole group when a spell fades away, for several reasons:
1 - Nobody ever said you had to be constantly affected by all spells. Before the update, every caster would be flying, levitating, bull-strength'ed, mnemonicly enhanced, affected with all the protective spells, all the other stat-enhancing spells, with comprehend language, and with nondetection. That did not make much sense. Now, they have to cast the spells when they are needed. It all makes up for a more IC behaviour.
2 - You want to be permanently affected by something? That can be IC ... e.g., I like Dalvyn to always have detect magic on when I play him. What do I do? I spend three or four slots on detect magic. Then I can just recast it when it stops.
3 - Why rush things? If the casters have to rest for a while to regain their spells, that's IC to do so. Actually, I'd like to see a need for all characters to have to stop and rest up for a while, perhaps by making attacks take more move points away and thus having the fighters need to rest as well, or something similar. You don't have to make a big quest or raid a whole area (Spaki cited Feebov as an example) in one big assault. Pauses give you the opportunity to roleplay. That's the very reason why it's now possible to use say/sayto while meditating. Pauses are good.
Re: Pkill situations
Pkills are rare enough that it's not a major problem... but yes, that part might perhaps require a specific solution (though, generally, you just have to agree OOCly with your opponent that you can recast your spells for free). But I don't see it as a problem big enough to warrant doubling the durations of all spells in all situations.
Re: Fine tuning the spell system
The new system has been in for only a few days. It will take time for bad habits to go away and for characters and players to get used to it. It's still possible (actually, very easy) to modify the durations of all spells to make them last longer, but that's a change that shouldn't be rushed off. Take the time to explore the new system, see how it works when you are in a group, ... and then later we can see what really needs changing. It's often the case that, right after such a big change, the reactions are like "That's horrible, we will never manage to survive with this and that." then, later, when you get used to the change, you wouldn't want to go back.
Re: Argentia
You must be using a 3.0 book
Bulls strength lasts 1 min/level in edition 3.5. The reason is what Lerytha wrote: those spells are meant to give boosts when needed, not to permanently add 4 to each ability. Ok, Kregor beat me to it. My fault for answering before reading all the messages.
Re: Taerom
*gasp* Your post is blasphemy! And I will not scoop down to answer to it!
More seriously, if you have not seen anyone permanently buffed up by their wizard friend before, you must have spent too much time in Mithril Hall. That was, on the contrary, very common, amongst those "in the know". Of course, newbies and other less known players were not part of this, but this was very very very common, I assure you.
I am not sure the new system makes wizards less "fun" to play. I guess it all depends on what you call "fun". If "fun" means that wow! I am now powerful and can kill thousands of mobs in 10 minutes, then... yes, you are right, the slot system does not make them more fun. If "fun" means, I gain access to many interesting spells and I have to carefully select those I want to prepare, get ready for this monster and that monster, prepare this for the fighters, and that spell for the thief to sneak in invisible, then it definitely makes it fun. I, for one, do not think that it's "fun" to just be able to type "memorize 50 magic missile", sit down, then go magic-missile-ing mobs for 10 minutes before starting again and again. I like the added complexity of having to choose what spells to prepare and when to cast them. But Lerytha already said all those things better than I could.
I am actually very glad it was changed. I got really tired of seeing 90% of the characters affected with long-duration bulls strength, slink, trollish vigour, friends, mnemonic enhancer, sagacity, and fly. Why group up if all you have to do is ask a "friendly" wizard to boost you with all those spells and you're good to go for 10 days camping in Hartsvale? There were several posts and IC communications that indicated that this was a bad thing to do, yet some casters continued to bestow those spells with persistent turned on... so that's how persistent spell was changed.
Re: spells with different durations
Spell duration depends on many things: your skill level, your character level, and the definition of the spell itself. Some last for a very short time, others last for a long time. The durations have been set to create a balanced system, along with spell level and potency.
You do not have to rest and stop the whole group when a spell fades away, for several reasons:
1 - Nobody ever said you had to be constantly affected by all spells. Before the update, every caster would be flying, levitating, bull-strength'ed, mnemonicly enhanced, affected with all the protective spells, all the other stat-enhancing spells, with comprehend language, and with nondetection. That did not make much sense. Now, they have to cast the spells when they are needed. It all makes up for a more IC behaviour.
2 - You want to be permanently affected by something? That can be IC ... e.g., I like Dalvyn to always have detect magic on when I play him. What do I do? I spend three or four slots on detect magic. Then I can just recast it when it stops.
3 - Why rush things? If the casters have to rest for a while to regain their spells, that's IC to do so. Actually, I'd like to see a need for all characters to have to stop and rest up for a while, perhaps by making attacks take more move points away and thus having the fighters need to rest as well, or something similar. You don't have to make a big quest or raid a whole area (Spaki cited Feebov as an example) in one big assault. Pauses give you the opportunity to roleplay. That's the very reason why it's now possible to use say/sayto while meditating. Pauses are good.
Re: Pkill situations
Pkills are rare enough that it's not a major problem... but yes, that part might perhaps require a specific solution (though, generally, you just have to agree OOCly with your opponent that you can recast your spells for free). But I don't see it as a problem big enough to warrant doubling the durations of all spells in all situations.
Re: Fine tuning the spell system
The new system has been in for only a few days. It will take time for bad habits to go away and for characters and players to get used to it. It's still possible (actually, very easy) to modify the durations of all spells to make them last longer, but that's a change that shouldn't be rushed off. Take the time to explore the new system, see how it works when you are in a group, ... and then later we can see what really needs changing. It's often the case that, right after such a big change, the reactions are like "That's horrible, we will never manage to survive with this and that." then, later, when you get used to the change, you wouldn't want to go back.
Re: Argentia
You must be using a 3.0 book
Bulls strength lasts 1 min/level in edition 3.5. The reason is what Lerytha wrote: those spells are meant to give boosts when needed, not to permanently add 4 to each ability. Ok, Kregor beat me to it. My fault for answering before reading all the messages. Re: Taerom
*gasp* Your post is blasphemy! And I will not scoop down to answer to it!
More seriously, if you have not seen anyone permanently buffed up by their wizard friend before, you must have spent too much time in Mithril Hall. That was, on the contrary, very common, amongst those "in the know". Of course, newbies and other less known players were not part of this, but this was very very very common, I assure you.
I am not sure the new system makes wizards less "fun" to play. I guess it all depends on what you call "fun". If "fun" means that wow! I am now powerful and can kill thousands of mobs in 10 minutes, then... yes, you are right, the slot system does not make them more fun. If "fun" means, I gain access to many interesting spells and I have to carefully select those I want to prepare, get ready for this monster and that monster, prepare this for the fighters, and that spell for the thief to sneak in invisible, then it definitely makes it fun. I, for one, do not think that it's "fun" to just be able to type "memorize 50 magic missile", sit down, then go magic-missile-ing mobs for 10 minutes before starting again and again. I like the added complexity of having to choose what spells to prepare and when to cast them. But Lerytha already said all those things better than I could.
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Zach
Well then... I am looking forward to make ANOTHER wizard just to see the new spells they would have...Taerom wrote:I really don't think that there's going to be a large increase in wizards being played in the game until it's more fun to play one.
I know 2 others that are doing the same
I have seen quite a few wiz on as of late
I doubt this is because they do not think it is fun
Yes... it is a bummer... but now they just can't be casted... then solo and area...
as for you not knowing anyone who is always "pimped out" then you have not met an orc whose name has been removed to protect the innocent, more times then not... he was "pimped out"
I like that it is not for hours on end... but I DO agree that it COULD be a little longer... 15 minutes would be nice... but every 3-5 minutes is not very RP frendly... but it will condone fighters to take us out for a spin then just ask us in town. If you don't like it... then too bad... have more people in the group so that you do not need BULLS STRENGTH for EVERY mob you see....
Boo hoo you can't run through an area in 20-30 minutes... boo hoo someone might get hurt and fall below 40%HP! then.. BRING a priest! who can MASS HEAL or for the evil MASS HARM (or something on those lins. i don't have an evil priest.... YET)
It is more RP listic.
BUT it could last a LITTLE longer
If you can't have fun with a wiz anymore... there are more choices
Fighter
Priest
Gwain
Thief
Merchant
{Tempus}Edited to remove a reference to someone elses character.{/Tempus}
Gwain is not a class, Gwain is a way of life.
As a subscriber to the first edition and an overt roleplayer moreso than a fighter, I always look for the positive in any situation. I am sure that this system will work towards benifiting players more than causing them trouble. I remember the system before feats and such, and I can honestly say that this mud has evolved incredibly over the years and will probably continue to change for the better as time goes on.
As a subscriber to the first edition and an overt roleplayer moreso than a fighter, I always look for the positive in any situation. I am sure that this system will work towards benifiting players more than causing them trouble. I remember the system before feats and such, and I can honestly say that this mud has evolved incredibly over the years and will probably continue to change for the better as time goes on.
Last edited by Gwain on Tue Mar 07, 2006 1:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
Justice is not neccesarily honourable, it is a tolerable business, in essence you tolerate honour until it impedes justice, then you do what is right.
Spelling is not necessarily correct
Spelling is not necessarily correct
I personally agree with the staff on this one.
To reiterate what has been said above, even allowing the differences between tabletop and a MUD, the various stat boosting spells are not and should not be intended as a long-term "make my life easier" thing.
They are as said supposed to give you an edge when you need to take on something big, not to allow you to steamroll hordes of goblins for quick cash and xp-via-numbers.
As far as the inconvenience for the party, if anything I think this will make wizards more valuable to parties. In the various (and numerous) debates regarding the relative power/value of wizards in the game it was mentioned several times even by long-term wizard players, that more often than not people didn't want to tote them around on parties, they just wanted those long term stat-boosting spells so they could go solo raze an area, or to make it easier for groups of fighters/priests etc. to kill things.
Now if you want that nifty Bull's Strength, or Slink spell to deal with mobs you have to have a wizard along in the party. That in addition to the fact that wizards will now have much more impressive things than streams of magic missiles to throw about in combat should make the class a highly valued addition to any party.
As for the lapsing of spells during an adventure, and the need to wait for the spell to become available again, I think that is much more IC and plausible than "Hold on a sec, lemme memorize a couple Bull's Strength and I'll get you boosted up again."
Granted, I haven't put my wizard char to much use, but as far as I can see the entire update to the spell system is win win for the class.
In any case, if you want to play with more metamagic, just submit a quest for the Incantatrix Prestige Class.
To reiterate what has been said above, even allowing the differences between tabletop and a MUD, the various stat boosting spells are not and should not be intended as a long-term "make my life easier" thing.
They are as said supposed to give you an edge when you need to take on something big, not to allow you to steamroll hordes of goblins for quick cash and xp-via-numbers.
As far as the inconvenience for the party, if anything I think this will make wizards more valuable to parties. In the various (and numerous) debates regarding the relative power/value of wizards in the game it was mentioned several times even by long-term wizard players, that more often than not people didn't want to tote them around on parties, they just wanted those long term stat-boosting spells so they could go solo raze an area, or to make it easier for groups of fighters/priests etc. to kill things.
Now if you want that nifty Bull's Strength, or Slink spell to deal with mobs you have to have a wizard along in the party. That in addition to the fact that wizards will now have much more impressive things than streams of magic missiles to throw about in combat should make the class a highly valued addition to any party.
As for the lapsing of spells during an adventure, and the need to wait for the spell to become available again, I think that is much more IC and plausible than "Hold on a sec, lemme memorize a couple Bull's Strength and I'll get you boosted up again."
Granted, I haven't put my wizard char to much use, but as far as I can see the entire update to the spell system is win win for the class.
In any case, if you want to play with more metamagic, just submit a quest for the Incantatrix Prestige Class.
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Amalia
- Sword Grand Master
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I, too, am of the opinion that "tougher" spellcasting is a boon (though I didn't know I could play it that my character wasn't in a trance while meditating!). Beyond the fact that it makes a spellcaster's presence a much more immediate need in a party, it might also discourage some would-be wizards from playing, and I think for world balance-of-classes that's good. The way I see it, fighters are the bread and butter of adventurers-- closely followed by priests, and then rogues. Fighters are in there element bashing skulls, which is what a lot of adventuring consists of; priests can feasibly be said to be fervent enough to want to go out and do their Diety's will on a regular basis. I'd see rogues as more likely to stick around town for the most part, but go along for treasure or mischief or both on frequent occasion.
Wizards are a different breed altogether. They are best suited to study, preparation, and attack from within the safety of their bastion, whatever it may be. When a mage leaves his tower, I'd think it likely to either be under a very capable guard, or for a good concrete reason. Wizards must by nature be smart and patient, and therefore wizards who still experience wanderlust and *want* to put themselves in harm's way for one reason or another ought to be relatively rare, in my opinion. Therefore, I think it a good thing that wizards are forced by code to act somewhat deliberately instead of being able to cast a whole bunch off the cuff.
I don't think the new system is as much an improvement on Priests, but I still like it and certainly don't object to the changes, because a priest can wear armor and fight halfway decently, keeping him well within the range of reasonable adventurer classes even if he can't cast as much.
I do have one question about XP as it relates to wizards, though; I've heard that XP is in large part based on the amount of damage one does in battle, so if wizards aren't going to be doing as much (I don't even know if this is the case) perhaps they could get some XP from the damage done by those they've buffed, or the damage prevented by their buffs, or other such factors?
Wizards are a different breed altogether. They are best suited to study, preparation, and attack from within the safety of their bastion, whatever it may be. When a mage leaves his tower, I'd think it likely to either be under a very capable guard, or for a good concrete reason. Wizards must by nature be smart and patient, and therefore wizards who still experience wanderlust and *want* to put themselves in harm's way for one reason or another ought to be relatively rare, in my opinion. Therefore, I think it a good thing that wizards are forced by code to act somewhat deliberately instead of being able to cast a whole bunch off the cuff.
I don't think the new system is as much an improvement on Priests, but I still like it and certainly don't object to the changes, because a priest can wear armor and fight halfway decently, keeping him well within the range of reasonable adventurer classes even if he can't cast as much.
I do have one question about XP as it relates to wizards, though; I've heard that XP is in large part based on the amount of damage one does in battle, so if wizards aren't going to be doing as much (I don't even know if this is the case) perhaps they could get some XP from the damage done by those they've buffed, or the damage prevented by their buffs, or other such factors?
Dear Enemy: May the Lord hate you and all your kind, may you be turned orange in hue, and may your head fall off at an awkward moment.
Make no mistake--I was not saying that a bunch of new spells and a well-implemented system for their usage makes playing a wizard less fun--I'm no fool. For those who aren't perhaps as forward-thinking, my first thought when the new spell system was released is "How are my characters going to pay for all of those spell trains?" and the answer was no longer "Well, by my character making buff casts for money.", which is (was?) one of the better ways for a spellcaster to make a buck without breaking roleplay.
Ok, I think some things got a little off topic here. I wasn't demanding a return to persistent spell for all spells (though some return of it, perhaps in a lessened duration for spells cast upon oneself, would be nice), I was asking for a feat which could make spells last the same time, so that instead of having to rest at 1 min, 2 min, 3 min, and 5 min, a wizard could rest at 5 min only to renew his spells. It would make grouping a LOT easier...I don't know all that many out there who would be willing to group with a wizard if he had to go, "Oh, my detect hidden just went so I can't find those traps that the thief missed, whoops, there goes my shield spell so I'm going to die if we run into anything, oh, darn, there goes mnemonic and a bunch of my spells, etc."
Also, on the topic of balance, wizards' protective spells -were- their armor...I was under the impression that that was what wizards had the ability to do, resist damage by spell (and, since wraithform was taken out, suddenly wizards don't have as good a chance against mobs that take swings at them). Now, priests can do pretty much anything a wizard can, and better. They've got a bunch of new spells which in some cases pretty much equal or exceed those of wizards, they can wear armor (wizards, with the lessening of duration and level to which - and therefore effectiveness - of their resistance spells can be raised to, can't consistenly provide protection against those times when they -are- attacked head on, regardless of group), and they can heal, and they can physically fight better. Maybe a wizard can cast a few different spells a priest can't, but in the long run I don't see why a priest who isn't going to die because of his lack of spell protection (since he can go around in plate) won't be able to replace a wizard for pretty much anything.
I don't think anyone but a crazy wizard would go into OSoW with, say, stone skin and mnemonic on "a while" thinking, oh, I'm sure it won't wear off while we're fighting a balor and it takes a swipe at me, and it sure won't wear off while we're in a dangerous area with no way out and in a place where meditation will most likely be interrupted by some sort of enemy*"
*(especially since I was under the impression meditation in the middle of a place like OSoW was frowned on)
Hm, some of those portions could use a little work, but I'm too tired to work on them right now. Hope none of it sounded to flame/whinish and there aren't too many typos, apologies in advance if it did/there are.
Also, on the topic of balance, wizards' protective spells -were- their armor...I was under the impression that that was what wizards had the ability to do, resist damage by spell (and, since wraithform was taken out, suddenly wizards don't have as good a chance against mobs that take swings at them). Now, priests can do pretty much anything a wizard can, and better. They've got a bunch of new spells which in some cases pretty much equal or exceed those of wizards, they can wear armor (wizards, with the lessening of duration and level to which - and therefore effectiveness - of their resistance spells can be raised to, can't consistenly provide protection against those times when they -are- attacked head on, regardless of group), and they can heal, and they can physically fight better. Maybe a wizard can cast a few different spells a priest can't, but in the long run I don't see why a priest who isn't going to die because of his lack of spell protection (since he can go around in plate) won't be able to replace a wizard for pretty much anything.
I don't think anyone but a crazy wizard would go into OSoW with, say, stone skin and mnemonic on "a while" thinking, oh, I'm sure it won't wear off while we're fighting a balor and it takes a swipe at me, and it sure won't wear off while we're in a dangerous area with no way out and in a place where meditation will most likely be interrupted by some sort of enemy*"
*(especially since I was under the impression meditation in the middle of a place like OSoW was frowned on)
Yes, but high level wizards in D&D have the option of making magical items (rings, sleeves, boots, etc.) with such spells imbubed (say, glasses of detect magic) and they can also use permanency charms to make (certain) spells last, well, permanently, without having to respell -every- spell. On FK a wizard can't turn around and enchant his rings with anything therefore has to depend almost entirely on respelling for any magical effects he wishes for. Therefore, a wizard who wants to be able to keep his spells up will have few slots left for attack spells (as compared to a priest who can wear heavy armor and spend all his slots on attack spells, especially because he can turn them into healing any time he wants). If wizards can't keep their spells/ability to survive up, cast spells on group members to earn their places in parties, and cast offensive spells to even be able to do much damage (mostly due to the short duration of spells), then why would anyone want to take one along at all? Sure, maybe they've got timestop or comparable spells, but in going out to an area that's nothing a priest with heal couldn't balance/exceed.Dalvyn wrote: 1 - Nobody ever said you had to be constantly affected by all spells. Before the update, every caster would be flying, levitating, bull-strength'ed, mnemonicly enhanced, affected with all the protective spells, all the other stat-enhancing spells, with comprehend language, and with nondetection. That did not make much sense. Now, they have to cast the spells when they are needed. It all makes up for a more IC behaviour.
Hm, some of those portions could use a little work, but I'm too tired to work on them right now. Hope none of it sounded to flame/whinish and there aren't too many typos, apologies in advance if it did/there are.
I just remembered, one other thing on PKs, with wizards getting a bunch of new insta-killish spells, but their ability to tolerate damage going way down, aren't wizards' options in PKs bascially limited to using insta-kill spells rather than getting beaten up using regular spells and lower quality/running out resists? And if so, will PK rules have to go through revisions due to this change?
To get back to the Feat proposed, I do not know how AD&D it would be, but to me it would work like this:
The wizard has learned to channel the weave surrounding him more effectively, when he uses this ability, his own spells affecting him will each last the same time, which is the sum of their durations divided by the number of spells.
E.G. the wizard casts a bulls strength, which lasts a while
then the wizard casts a "feeder spell", a detect magic, which lasts a very long time
now he activates this ability, and both spells will last a long time
somehow this does not feel very realistic to me, and doubt it will ever be in the game.
edit: Wizard PK - time stop, protection, gate, meteor swarm, meteor swarm, meteor swarm...
I don't think wizards need to worry
The wizard has learned to channel the weave surrounding him more effectively, when he uses this ability, his own spells affecting him will each last the same time, which is the sum of their durations divided by the number of spells.
E.G. the wizard casts a bulls strength, which lasts a while
then the wizard casts a "feeder spell", a detect magic, which lasts a very long time
now he activates this ability, and both spells will last a long time
somehow this does not feel very realistic to me, and doubt it will ever be in the game.
edit: Wizard PK - time stop, protection, gate, meteor swarm, meteor swarm, meteor swarm...
I don't think wizards need to worry
Chars: Aryvael et all.