Recent changes and the direction of the mud

[Amalia]

All right, please disregard any comments I've made on the supposed trustworthiness of players...

Was this someone who *stayed*?

Age-dependency sounds like a nifty idea to me.

[Zach]

Here here for age-dependency!!!

but (and i have to put a but... force of habit i have from school)

We can still have very low level characters that just hang around not really doing anything just gaining skill points via RP or hours online or what-nots... and could still be a low level... pouring his skill points into something until he feel he can go out, level an area at level 14 and doing hard quests and items from the quests at this low level...

i think i am done playing devils advocate

[Athon]

It's been used on these boards before, but here it is again: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

The whole skill improving system was just fine back in the day. So why was it stopped? To prevent twinks? I see more twinks now than I did back then. That system allowed players to both train when RP was low and to RP when possible. Remember, even though this is still an RP mud, we do like to be able to build up characters too. Severely limiting our character development to strictly just RP makes it rather... dull. Of course I love to roleplay, I do it all the time. But there are times when the RP is dead (Everyone is out somewhere) or sometimes it just feels fun to go out with another person or so and train. It's called balance and we're ignoring it. Remember, to get good at something you have to practice it, not sit around talking to people the whole time. This game would be best suited to go back to the skill-improvement system of before.

[Zach]

what was the skill improvement system of before

[Athon]

The prior system I speak of is that after so many uses, the skill would improve. It seems nonexistant for weapons and skills right now, but it might be set to an extremely higher number.

[Dalvyn]

See Gruumsh's post above: skill training by practice might be a bit slower now (for various reasons), but it still exists.

It's been used on these boards before, but here it is again: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

There was nothing "broke" with the way people lived back when they were hunting mammoth and living in caves. Yet - and, of course, you might disagree -, I'm very glad someone did not pop in and say "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" every time a change was suggested or about to happen.

That aside, I think it is broken. It really is for people who have a limited amount of free time to spend online. Taking back the example I mentionned above, with players A and B able to spend only 6 hours per week on the mud, why should they waste their limited time online on mindless training if they want to have any hope of seeing their skills increase?

I'd even go as far as suggesting that training (or skill point gathering, in some limited form) might be available as an offline task.

There's a topic I haven't addressed yet in my posts above: bots/triggers. Why are they forbidden on FK? Why can't you just log your character then start a bot that would type "mine" 20 times then make you rest for a while, and start again? Why can't you use a trigger on "You hear the weaponmaster training students" to "kill dummy 4 times, then get all, then walk south, then kill dummy 4 times, and so on"?

I think the core answer is that "we" don't feel that people should produce some kind of effort before they can be "rewarded" with skill increase/exp/..., "we" don't feel that people should get a reward just for having crafted a good bot/trigger... Then why is it we feel that people should be rewarded for successfully typing "mine" 200 times, or for successfully moving around rooms with mobs and typing "kill/bash giant" 200 times? In my opinion, this system is broke: I'd rather inspire people to do something more productive/clever/interesting and reward them rather than incite them to waste their time on something that a bot/trigger could do!

Once again, I'm not saying "Training mindless is stupid, don't do it." I'm just saying "Let's not reward people for something if we would rather they do something else." This is a roleplay mud, let's not reward people for doing something else instead of roleplaying.

The whole skill improving system was just fine back in the day. So why was it stopped? To prevent twinks? I see more twinks now than I did back then.

I don't think it was fine. As written above, it incited people to spend (most of) their time bashing mobs or mindlessly typing "mine" again and again. If they want to do that, it's fine... but it does not mean that the game should reward them for it! Or at least it does not mean that the game should reward them for it as much as it did.

As for seeing more twinks now then before, I do not agree with that observation... but even if it is true, it does not mean that switching to a skill point based system is not good. You can't judge a possible future system on what you are seeing now.

That system allowed players to both train when RP was low and to RP when possible. Remember, even though this is still an RP mud, we do like to be able to build up characters too. Severely limiting our character development to strictly just RP makes it rather... dull. Of course I love to roleplay, I do it all the time. But there are times when the RP is dead (Everyone is out somewhere) or sometimes it just feels fun to go out with another person or so and train. It's called balance and we're ignoring it.

The suggested system does not prevent people from training when RP is low. They will/would just get less by doing that than by roleplaying. You wrote "allowed players to both train when RP was low and to RP when possible". You did not write "allowed players to both train when they want and RP when they don't feel like training". That shows that roleplay should be the primary/most favoured occupation, not training. Thus, roleplay should give more reward than training...

And, by the way, "to go out with another person or so and train" can include roleplay. You can have roleplay while exploring/questing/adventuring/killing mobs. What is NOT roleplay (and thus, in my opinion, shouldn't be rewarded) is people training/adventuring/questing for hours long with no word, no smote, no roleplay.

Remember, to get good at something you have to practice it, not sit around talking to people the whole time. This game would be best suited to go back to the skill-improvement system of before.

Yes, realistically, you have to practice something to be good at it. I agree with that. But... should it be (role)played?

Realistically, you have to sleep at least a few hours each night. But the game does not force you to stare at a black screen for 40 minutes (8 in-game hours) while your character sleeps. Realistically, you also have to pee and poop every now and then. But the game does not force you to make your character do that.

Realistically, you would have to spend several hours/days practicing to learn a new language or a new weapon skill with a trainer. But the game does not force you to stare at a frozen screen for several hours/days while your character slowly learns that new langage words one by one, or while your character learns new combat moves one by one.

The system above uses the same principle: The game shouldn't force you to stare at the screen for hours and type "kill giant" or "mine" every now and then. A game that makes you be creative, imaginative, that makes you think and/or learn, that makes you develop social skills, that makes you take tactical decisions is good. A game that incites you do things that a mindless bot can do is not good.

[Algon]

Here is the way I see look at it. You talk about this MUD being based around RP...if you make it to where people can raise skills just for sitting in the square talking. You will have level 20 fighters who will be able to take on anyone without ever really having to fight. How is that good for RP? Or a Dwarf who sits around waterdeep all day and never swings a pick once then all of the sudden is a master miner.

I dont understand how it is good for RP to pretty much "SKIP" actually having to do the things they they are RPing getting better at. We are kind of missing the forest for the trees IMO.

Lets take my Dwarf for example. He has spent his entire life inside Mithril Hall. He has learned a trade and has worked very very hard to become decent at that trade. That is his RP....his RP is not sitting around talking about how great he will be one day then....bam....a master miner. He "worked" for his skill level. It it takes me sitting around for a hundred hours typing 20 mine....rest....stand....20 mine... then that is what it takes.
I should not be punished for deciding to actually follow the dwarven RP as it is....Dwarves spend all day long for years and years mining and smithing....it is not something they just do they have to work at it....that is what my character is doing....working.

I like the idea of not penalizing people for RPing....but do not penalize the people who actually like to do other things as well. IF you take away the ability to level skills for actually using the skill....you are in the exact same position just backwards.....the people who do not actually have to work for skills will get better and who is going to want to go on quests and groups now if everyone just sits around waiting for that next hour or two so they can raises shieldwork another level....
Remember this game is not simply about sitting around and talking for alot of people...some of us actually do like to take a friend or two and just go slaughter something. That is RPing as well....not everyone enjoys just sitting in the square all day long and doing nothing but talking and I do not believe the game was created to be that way. There are countless monsters and quests and areas to explore....it was made to go out every now and then and kill something and practice using that new sword technique you just learned.

My two cents....

[Zach]

I do not believe they are talking about taking that ability of skilling up... just adding to the way to do it as well

[Athon]

Sorry, my time is limited (gotta leave for work here soon) and I love debating, such as this here. I'll try to leave a more detailed response when I return. I have a quick comment I'd like to add:

Obviously if you think there's something wrong the old system, I trust you Dalvyn, I'm just missing it. But as a player, I really liked the way the old system worked. But after rethinking after your post, I see both ways of your system and the old system. So perhaps a compromise is needed. Here is what I suggest:

You need both RP points -and/or- practice points to improve at a skill. Basically, you would have to spend so much time RPing to gain a certain set of RP points. You would then also have to spend some time (a balance for this would be needed) training in order to improve the skill. Each tick of rp'ing you get, you would get a point. However, after you reach a certain level of rp'ing, the rate at which you receieved those points would decrease slightly. The same would be with training, at first you would gain the practice points at a set speed, which would slow down as you got more and more practice points. Ideally, in order to get the most amount of points, you would spend time doing both. As long as you did both, you wouldn't reach the cap of which you started gaining slower. Of course, the higher the level of a skill, the more points are needed.

This isn't trying to deter RP, really. I just don't think staying in a city the whole time should make a character really powerful.

Then we would have Sunites that could complain about the nails and talk about how beautiful they are, then be able to still defeat you quickly in a spar... then what would the world come to? (Not trying to be offensive to Sunites, Just a tease directed from Moranall)

[Algon]

I would not have a problem with a system like that. I do believe that the fun of this game comes with the players and the roleplaying that comes along with them. Not just hack and slash...but if you do not have to actually use a skill to become better at it...its kind of bad RP IMO...so making it to where you have to both use the skill and have enough RP points to level a skill....I can agree with something like that

[Tavik]

Algon,
Dlavyn did point out in one of his earlier posts that the training (actually swinging the pick over and over again) could be RP'd as been done while offline. I would say that is a fair way to justify things.

That being said, I do think that the current system, should be kept (if not modified a little to make things a bit easier to through actual use) for the sole purpose of those that want to do something over and over again. As anyone that's been around for any amount of time has seen, the players here are all vastly different, and I understand that you can't please everyone all the time. But that doesn't mean don't try. Frankly, if someone has the patience and want to go slay mob after mob for hours on end, then let them. They're missing out on all the great RP that takes place elsewhere. As a few people have pointed out, sometimes they just want to go waste things for a while. It's always gratifying to me when I'm angry OOC, jump into the game and see "Your slash nearly bisects a green blob's pseudoplasm!" I don't think people should be punished for wanting to take a break every now and then from RP and just go kill something. That can easily be worked into RP (even though no RP is happening at the time).

I really like the skill point system, don't get me wrong, but there are a number of low level training areas built specifically for gaining XP and such. I can't really say I'd be real happy that all of a sudedn the area I built to help out lower level players is no longer used, because no one has any incentive to go there.

My opinion in short:Keep current system, put in the skill point system and the vast majority of players are going to be happy.

[Ellian]

That is his RP....his RP is not sitting around talking about how great he will be one day then....bam....a master miner.

This is just one thing in particular that caught my eye that I will comment on, because I must admit that I haven't been extremely attentive to this thread (it seems like there's another four or five screen lengths' worth every day). I'm going to refer back to Dalvyn's example of players A and B. Let's say both want to roleplay a dwarf developing his or her mining abilities. Player A "roleplays" the character's mining during the player's six hours online. This type of "roleplay" involves pressing the enter key many, many times until a line of white text informs the player that they have improved at mining. Player B on the other hand roleplays a dwarf spending some time at the bar getting sloshed with friends and singing drunken tunes after a hard day's work. The mining is assumed to have happened when the character isn't actually logged in.

IMHO, player B's time spent online sounds more like roleplay than player A's, even if both players are doing what a dwarf would do.

Remember this game is not simply about sitting around and talking for alot of people...some of us actually do like to take a friend or two and just go slaughter something. That is RPing as well....not everyone enjoys just sitting in the square all day long and doing nothing but talking and I do not believe the game was created to be that way.

I'm sure there is great roleplay potential in going out and killing things in groups, but that is very different from mining or killing things alone for a hundred hours.

I think a little confusion comes from the fact that the FK community uses roleplay in two different senses. It can be used to mean, "what your character would do in different circumstances, based on the background you have established," or it can also mean, "interaction with other players using says and smotes to create conversation etc."
- The first definition is a sort of "boundary" that your character's actions should fall within. The boundary is set by your race, alignment, and the history you have created for the character. Your character's actions include both the things he or she says and does through smotes, and the things he or she does through commands like "mine" or "kill" or "steal." It also includes interactions between your character and both PCs and NPCs.
- The second definition is just your character's interactions with other PC characters.

Now that that's broken down, I feel like I can address the above quote a little better. Yes, running around and killing things can be considered RP under the first, broader definition. But it's the second kind of roleplay - the more complex, thought-provoking, interesting kind - that I think the Imms are talking about when they say "this is a roleplay mud." My interpretation of "this is a roleplay mud" is, "this is a mud where you are able to kill a million mobs or mine a million pieces of metal or (insert repetitive task here), but we would rather you interact with other players on a regular basis and in a deep, intelligent way."

Or something like that.

Moving on...

There are countless monsters and quests and areas to explore....it was made to go out every now and then and kill something and practice using that new sword technique you just learned.

When an experienced builder makes a new area or quest for this mud, I think they have the second definition of roleplay in mind as they mold its features, rather than "how can I make this area more fun for people who just want to kill something." The monsters and quests and areas are there to catalyze interesting conversation and action, whether on-site, or from the safety of the market square as an adventuring party recounts their tales.

Jayson

(Edit: new posts from Algon and Tavik went up as I was writing this, sorry if anything I say here is reduntant of what they said before me.)

[Caelnai]

That being said, I do think that the current system, should be kept (if not modified a little to make things a bit easier to through actual use) for the sole purpose of those that want to do something over and over again. As anyone that's been around for any amount of time has seen, the players here are all vastly different, and I understand that you can't please everyone all the time. But that doesn't mean don't try.

I heartily agree with this sentiment. By all means, reward RP as much as possible...but do not totally neglect the players who login when there's only one or two other PCs and no imms online. I've spent plenty of hours chatting with mobs and RP-ing the best I can, and I would hope for some character development even if there's not someone on to see it.

We're all here because we love the game, no? So something about the way things have been must have merit. I've seen games drive away players through too many changes or trying to force play in a certain direction, but a good player base is all about diversity.

[Kirkus]

I just want to throw out a couple of things.... and remember that this subject is growing so fast I don't even know what the original suggestion is. But it sounds to me that some people want to eliminate or change the way skills are learned or trained?

In D&D you can sit in a bar and boast about your skills all day long.... all week long if you want. But eventually that DM is going to say "Prove it". And if you don't, guess what you don't improve. How do you gain levels then? by acutally completing quests and tasks set fourth by others. That is the purpose of new areas to give us something to do other than sit arround in Market Square and boast about something we have done once back in the basement of the Library ie swung a sword or cast a spell.

Now I have no problem with roleplay actually giving points for levels or something, but how does gossiping in a city actually improve your sneak or hide skill? And think about this, there are time when you might be the only pc on. What are you to do then? I used to be that guy. What did I do? I went out and slayed Giants! I rp'd with my camel some but it was mostly smot burn a forest or look for quests. I didn't sit arround and tell the sailors that pass by about a giant I killed when I accidentally fell off the road in the thunder peaks while running back to WD to sit in the square and talk. Yeah I could have just sat in the square, but there was no one there! I roamed the world and looked for challenges and faced them. I like to call it Adventure!

I and many I know have used the ol' while I was away trick. But that was just to explain our absence. It was for the broad sence of rp. To go so far as to say I learned third attack to the level of apprentace while I was offline....... that to me just cheapens the experience.

So, yeah its 3:00 in the morning and I just lost my train of thought. Anyway what are our options as far as possabilities go?

[Duranamir]

I am putting this up for discussion and since I am not an IMM this only reflects my own opinions.

This MUD is the best MUD I have ever played. It has kept me here for years because of the RP and the general quality of the MUD. What I like most is the balance between the pure RP side and the adventuring exploring side of the MUD. I am not saying it is perfect but it is a very good blend of the two.

A second thing that attracts me to this MUD is that it uses the D&D forgotten realms background and the D&D rules both of which I have always enjoyed. The realms as portrayed in the game are the best reflection of the feel of the tabletop games and books I have ever encountered. The rules are less well reflected but generally work for me to support the overall game. If anything needs to be improved it is the technical systems behind the scenes that provide the skeleton on which we all build our characters. (not that it actually needs much improvement).

Part of the forgotten realms world that we are playing in is the idea of adventuring. If we just wanted to chat we could use a chat room or a MUSH. One of the things I like to do is explore the world preferably in company having adventures. This strand of the game is what brought me to table top RP many years ago and is what made me a player and dungeon master. It is the combination of the social with the tactical/exploring elements of the game. If we push the game too far in an RP direction i.e. all you need to do be a grandmaster swordsman is RP that you are a grandmaster swordsman without ever leaving Waterdeep I think we lose the sense of achievement from exploring areas and defeating monsters and threats. In fact we would not need any areas other than home towns. The other side of the coin is the pointless razing of an area to gain experience and gold this is an equally bad thing because it leads to boredom. What we need is something in between where there is still the reward for exploring and adventuring (this is still a game) and also rewards for RP'ing and generally enhancing the enjoyment of other characters.

Part of the current problem in my opinion is that we do not have a separate currency for dealing with skills we buy skills with XP directly then improve them through practice. I think things would be clearer if we had a single currency to buy and improve skills with i.e. skill points. This would allow systems to put in place to give skill points in various different ways without affecting the other systems within the game. This is also something that is included in the D&D 3.5 rules so would move us closer to conformance with the underlying rules.

There are then two sides to the new equation, first how and when do we give out skill points? And second what do we allow characters to do with them. ?

There is one element of the game that is inherent in the whole D&D system that is level. Unless we want to turn the whole system on its head I think we should work with this rather than against it. In general a character of higher level should be better at there skills than one of a lower level. So for me one place we should give out skill points is at every level. This would allow characters to have some predictable element to there progression in skills, though allowing flexibility in which skill they wanted to develop. This would also mean that adventuring is still something of importance. The second way is by RP awards to reward players for there play these should then allow these players to tailor characters further in the directions that they want. A third category might be quest and exploration awards for example a player may gain some skill points for successfully performing a quest or exploring the world a lot.

As far as spending skill points goes I consider the current system of learning of skills via trainers and quests a strong point of the MUD because it allows characters to learn appropriate skills in an IC way and rewards exploration and problem solving quests in a good way. This could easily be converted to using skill points as a currency rather than XP directly. The bit that does not work for me as well as it could is the increase of skill after it has been learnt. I do not like having to cast the same spell again and again to improve it by a few percentage points. This is boring and takes away from time I could be RP'ng or adventuring. I would not like to make practice too easy either because then all characters would max all there skills too easily. What I would like to see is the ability to spend skill points on any of the characters already learned skills or spells reflecting the characters directed practice of that skill. So a warrior could use his skill points to increase whichever of his weapon skills he wished, a mage to become better at one of his spells reflecting his study of that spell (without having to cast it countless times). As I have pointed out in a previous post I think that there should be a cap on how high a character can push a skill at one time, whether this is by level or by age I am not sure. This should stop some of the more extreme abuses of the system.

Part of the problem with this system is that the number of skills (including spells as skills) each class has is very variable from fighters with only a few to mages with tons. So that X skill points would go a lot further for a warrior than for a mage. The answer to this is to assign variable costs to the skills so that for example weapon skills cost more than spells. This should allow flexibility within the system to balance out the different number of skills for each class without misbalancing the gains within each skill. I do not think that warriors will be disadvantaged because some of there skills i.e. extra attacks are certainly worth more than most spells. Also general RP skill such as cooking and common languages could be set with very low costs to allow them to be developed easily.

These are just my opinions and I hope it encourages further debate to improve the MUD for everyone who likes RP and adventuring.

Duranamir

[Rhytania]

Duranamir,
Good points you bring up. As far as the classes skill lists being unbalanced with skills to skill points ratio, DnD makes up for that by giving a fighter class a less skill points per level and giving the higher int class like rogues and wizards a bit more.

[Gwain]

I've always focused on rp above training and gaining stats with all my characters. In my opinion if I have to fight someone that is lv 50 or has been maxed out in stats I will do it. And if I die at least I rp'd what my pc would have done in that situation. I've always found it hard to level casually because I do not focus on that stuff and I have met and dealt with people that have been able to max out their characters because they were either very dedicated to training, or were very good at understanding code and therefore could train easily because they understood where they would recieve the most xp with the least risk or emeny mobiles that could be fought without fear of death. Of course there are those out there that have simply leveled up through ic means and travel, slowly but surely or quickly but in a sincere ic manner. It has never truly bothered me how they would go about it as long as they could rp with me. Those that were trouble and generally used their higher stats to intimidate in an un ic manner or make the game difficult or unenjoyable for other players were dealt with by admins. Otherwise most things just go as they go. With the changes, and these changes really started a year and a half ago, to now I've seen the xp I could earn dissapear because it was being distributed in a more realistic manner and skills were being developed at a slower rate, or trainers were not training to higher levels and such. This really does not affect me because I rp, I rarely train save when I need coin or I am traveling with others that require me for an ic manner. I could probably train myself up to lv 50 and be a menace of sorts, unto my enemies, but I've found that I want to rp, if it costs me stats and levels I am fine with that, and if there is a way for me to earn xp from rping then I welcome that too. The important thing for me is that I am here. I know that this game is in a static state and will continue to change and evolve and change is always good. Change brings out those that will help the mud continue to evolve. I applaud everyone in this forum for the positive direction this disccusion has gone in. How everyone is adjusting and bringing out new ideas is a wonderful thing. You do good work for the meium you enjoy.

Rp can incorporate stat building much akin to it incorporating kismet. I think that it is time to turn the clock off kismet and make it so that only through rewards will it go up. Make it loggable and monitored (if it is not already) so that it is not abused and award everyone a starting summ of 150-200. with this as a starter they can work towards more from rp. As your kismet rises so will your xp, let us say that for every 10 units of kismet gained you will be 10% to your next level after ten rewardings you will be able to level without losing the kismet earned. So that you have the amount to reward to another person, it will not drop your xp when you reward others just the kismet you have. When you are out of kismet the timer can be set to allow you to recover 10% after a certain amount of time, when this is done you will stop recovering. This would require the reward cap to be removed from kismet or to be increased for pc's. It is a very rough system I suggest but might help spread rp and might keep things more balanced in the case of kismet driven rewards. I'm not good with numbers or sure how much kismet is giving in a small rewarding (I never chack how much I give) but really, it is the spirit of the idea that concerns me.

Just my thoughts.

[Theillik]

Gwain, your characters are always a menace:) I'm completely kidding:)

I concur with Gwain's dedication to rp. I love the rp in FK, for the most part.

Although, I like getting kismet for hours spent on FK.

To increase rewarding for rp, perhaps, once per 24h period, the players could be given the ability to reward without cost to themselves. There are abuse dangers with this, but there is with everything.

I would imagine most people don't reward, unless they see a really good rp, because they know they lose more kismet than they give.

[Nearraba]

Not meaning to get off topic, but I would like to reply to Theillik's post.

I would imagine most people don't reward, unless they see a really good rp, because they know they lose more kismet than they give.

In my opinion, I as well as a few others I know actually don't reward unless we see really good roleplay... not because it costs us kismet but because we know we are -only- aloud to reward once per day, & I think that is how the makers intended it to work, for the mortals.

Though I think it might be more interesting if we were able to reward a certain amount per hour instead of day. However I think keeping the cost of your own kismet to reward others is good, because getting a reward from another that is giving you something of theirs is quiet a gift I think.

Hope that made some since.

[Zach]

Not only is it quite a gift... but you know what they gave up for that gift... and i wished on more then one occasion that i could reward someone... when i did that... i questioned if someone could reward this person and they did... so there is that option...