Roleplaying one's character's intelligence and/or wisdom

Raona · Post by **Raona** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 12:39 am

I have a question I've been struggling with concerning the proper RP of intelligence and wisdom. Put simply, if OOC you are (potentially) smarter/wiser than your character IC, should you play into traps and lies that you can see through OOC?

If so, the counter-question is raised about what to do with a supergenius / ultrawise PC who's player is...neither.

Advice appreciated.

p.s. I do not intend to infer that I am smarter or wiser than Raona, but rather that surely the players of some half-orcs and the like are far smarter than their PC counterparts.

Dugald · Post by **Dugald** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 12:53 am

I think there is a lot to do with player trust...I'd be much more likely to play into a trap with a slower character if I trusted the player behind the trapping character. If I thought the player who is using his character to trap mine is a clown, and will just quickly pk or cast enervation over and over on my PC...I'd make up a reason why my PC couldn't, but not that he/she actually sees through the deception.

There is also a cultural thing, not just with Int/Wis - a character born and raised in Shadowdale would be more trusting than a character born in Skullport (typically).

As far as playing super intelligent characters, I'd do a lot of research OOC. There is a ton of things in game that would be common knowledge to our PC's but us as players don't know....geographical markings, other continents besides faerun, the different pantheon of gods outside the major/intermediate/minor over pantheon, what noncoded cities/empires are like (luskan, baldursgate, candlekeep, thay, calimport, ravensbluff).

All the characters have at least heard of these things IC, by being able to recall these things IC to others and explain to them what they are, I feel that portrays an exceptional memory at the very least a fine understanding of the world around him/her.

In regard to a half-orc/orc who is likely low intelligence low wisdom, they also likely grew up in a society where trust wasn't something ever given out. That's why you can't make deals with most evil races...the concept is a little alien to most of them.

Sean · Post by **Sean** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 12:56 am

Ahh, but who is to say the half-orc's intelligence isn't particularly high? Just because the sterotypical half-orc is a blockhead, doesn't mean they don't have their Einsteins.

But to answer your questions, yes, you should fall into traps. A noteable example that comes to mind, is once my character got zapped with an Int Lowering spell (on accident, heh). For the duration of the spell, my character kept... acting rather stupid, to put it to the point. He even forgot to open a door before running into it (it was a pretty powerful spell.....).

Another example, of course, is when blessed with Int/Wis raising spells, RP more intelligently. But, like you said...

What if the character is smarter than the player? Thats a toughy, because its often difficult to pretend to be smarter than you are. If you're a good enough acting/bluffer, you can probably pull it off... If not... Well, it sort of limits you. Though I what I'm saying is far from "People of average intelligence can't play super-smart wizards!", it does possess it's own rather unique RP challange.

But people should feel free to step up to any challange and take a shot at it, if they feel like it.

EDIT:
I was writing before Dugald posted his comment, but on that note, I agree completly with that as well. Cheers!

Raona · Post by **Raona** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 2:56 am

Sean wrote:Ahh, but who is to say the half-orc's intelligence isn't particularly high? Just because the sterotypical half-orc is a blockhead, doesn't mean they don't have their Einsteins.

Eeeep! I did not mean to pick on half-orcs, or suggest that they are all dullards, though I think that is how I came across. Let me put my question this way, instead: were I to roll up a PC with Int and Wis 6, how should I play them?

This is actually an issue that came up often in paper and pencil games, and even as a DM I never settled on how it should be treated...and in those cases, whether it was fair for me to force a PC to be dumb/unwise against the wishes of their player. I didn't feel stats should decide the day. I was tempted to set PC WIS and INT based on their players...but that's its own can of worms, once people figure out that's what's up!

All players of half-orcs - please find in my question no hidden accusation!

Sean · Post by **Sean** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 3:13 am

I told each and every one of my players this when I DMed a game, and I belive the mud has adopted a policy very similar.

If your character has an int and wis of 6, they're not going to be the brightest coin in the pouch. Act that way. No, its not fair your character is going to walk into situations, but they'll have other ways of getting out of it. This isn't the "life story of the player of Grog, the idiot half-orc that can McGyver his way out of a jail cell", this is "the adventures of Grog, the idiot half-orc that is to dumb to realize that he can lift the pins off the cell doors to get free."

This has made some upset, but other took it with a humorus light. I turn to aformentioned Grog, the Half-Orc with 3 int and 4 wis my friend made. You could convince Grog that a bag of sand was gold, and he would belive you... And try to spend it. And the local tavern would accept, because when Grog got made, Grog Smashed

.

Don't think of it as a limitation, think of it as a new RP experience!

Dugald · Post by **Dugald** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 3:17 am

With Wisdoms and Intelligence of 6, in each, that'd be a very...very, slow character.

I'd go as far as to say you'd be best rp'ing them along side another player's PC as a conditioned (enchantment) bodyguard who had his mind wiped. But if you're playing a race where it's common to have individuals of that mental capacity...temper your PC's ignorance through his/her physical prowess.

Orcs and Giants (hill) and other dimmer races don't make as many deals with the more intelligent races because A) they get what they want through their brawn, and B) they get tricked a lot.

There is a lot more to racial culture and regional culture that goes into what forges a character than their stats, imo. Even a dolt from skullport can smell a con when he hears one...and some of the most wise of Ravensbluff can be tricked easily if their guard is down.

So really, there isn't a good answer...other than think it out before hand and stick to it

Nearraba · Post by **Nearraba** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 8:56 pm

As Raona asked in her first post,

I have a question I've been struggling with concerning the proper RP of intelligence and wisdom. Put simply, if OOC you are (potentially) smarter/wiser than your character IC, should you play into traps and lies that you can see through OOC?

As stated many times before on these forums, it all depends on how you, yourself want to play your character. Yes, I would think if your intelligence isn’t all so grand you would not have a perfect vocabulary, maybe you wouldn’t really understand people all so well, but it all comes down to how you want to rp. You do not *have* to play into traps and lies however, I think it would be an interesting rp. You should however try your best to keep the things you know occ out of what your char knows ic.

Theillik · Post by **Theillik** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 1:57 am

I think this might be a little off topic..but..

I'm disappointed that we cannot have a low wisdom or a low intelligence. I don't mind capping the max, but I think we should be able to drop our stats lower. I wanted to play a dumb or unwise character, but couldn't.

Oghma · Post by **Oghma** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 2:53 am

Just how low did you want that stat to be? When in character creation, you have the option of choosing to distribute your stat points the way you want them.

Kregor · Post by **Kregor** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 5:34 pm

The builders team reworked the char creation system, and put a higher floor on the stats during creation. The reason this was done was, simlpy because of the rash of min/maxed characters that have been created after the new system was put in.

For more information on that, see Dalvyn's post:
http://www.forgottenkingdoms.com/board/ ... 0253#30253

If you really really wanted to play a dumb character, or foolish character, and needed to reflect it in sub-average INT or WIS, then I suppose you could apply for a reassignment of your stats, possibly. But I agree with the imms who changed it, that it's better to remove the ability for min/max, and inconvenience a select few chars who would want to actually have a low stats for RP purpose, than to leave it wide open and end up with a lot more who lower them simply to get a combat advantage.

Glim · Post by **Glim** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 5:40 pm

How about the ability to take a skill below 10, but you dont gain any points back at this point? This would allow a player to rp low stats but wouldnt get the rewards of being to raise others higher.

Blug · Post by **Blug** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 7:20 pm

I play a half-orc who is pretty smart, and fairly wise. I won't mention any names though. The trick is that each character, no matter what race, can be smart. The dependancies upon said smartness would come from the experiences of that character and wether said character would be able to absorb the knowledge that it's given. In the case of my character, I play him as fairly un-knowing of most things, but when he's seen something, see how it works, he knows pretty much what's going on. Now I do also have a character that couldn't tell you how to start a fire, but he's just fun to play around with. That's just the way I play an above average intelligence...doesn't mean they know everything, just means they can learn and might be able to figure it out on their own.

Waukeen · Post by **Waukeen** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 7:54 pm

If you want a character with a lower stat than can be given from char creation, send an e-mail to applications@forgottenkingdoms.com. You should have a valid RP reason for wanting to have a low stat.

Gregal · Post by **Gregal** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 8:04 pm

Well I have a problem with some of the quest requierments for stats, such as for Talonites, another player and I had a discussion, No talonite is pretty. If they are, the other talonites would scar them and tattoo them so badly they looked hiddeous, now as far as this goes I am under the impression many quests are based on charisma....I might have to disagree with this a lot because many warriors may be ugly but it doesn't mean a nobel wouldn't hire them to get the job done right and fast. I think Charisma should greatly affect the price of items, making them more to purchase and also should affect when you sell, get less coin. Just my personal opinion. I don't know about many of the other faiths, particulary because I am obsessed with Talona and reading all her books I am a bit psychotic with it. But I think these stats should be taken in account and a player shouldn't get shortchanged because they are following the stats of what their character should be.

Isolrem · Post by **Isolrem** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 8:31 pm

Reacting to many situations, such as trickery, does not only relate to int/wis.
A loyal soldier may have an int of 7 or less and a wis of 8, but years of service has made steel of his principles, and anything he is in the slightest unsure about will be questioned. In the case he may be as hard to scam as another with int 15

As to the debate of whether dumb/average characters can invoke the "stroke of brilliance" (the brilliance either on part of the character, or the player who comes up with an 'accidental' route to reach the desired outcome) RP, I do not think it is entirely disagreeable. Grog can't lift the pins off the jail cell, and when he tried to run his head against the wall he fell uncouncious on the ground... but when the jailkeeper came in to check if he was dead, he jumped up and brained the guy... When roleplay situations wander around in circles, this is often a good idea to break the stalemate.

Theillik · Post by **Theillik** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 2:05 am

I think it was wise of the builders to put a cap on the max-end of stats.

What I would like is to be able to create a character that is literally a moron, or a weakling, or butt ugly, or stiff as a board.

My suggestion is to keep the stat max, but let us be able to lower stats below average, even if it means we lose some stat points when we type done.

I guess this suggestion still would allow for min/max stats, but it's ideally what I'd like to see.

Raona · Post by **Raona** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 2:32 am

Alright, well, I'm hearing a consensus opinion that seems to be, roughly, if you are shrewd enough OOC to come up with an IC reason for your player to avoid doing something stupid, despite a low IC INT/WIS, you should feel OK about doing so. You don't have to always make them fall for unthrown-ball trick, especially if they've seen it before. I can live with that!

My thanks to those who offered their insights.

Without derailing the limbo-stats ('how low can you go?') discussion, I'll bring up another question, namely, do we live in Lake Wobegon, where everyone's above average? If a "smart" PC can master three languages, is that about how I should calibrate myself, meaning that if born today said person could program in JAVA and Perl, plus speak English, but would be clueless when that French-speaking beau put the moves on him/her in their native French?

Or should I take the word "smart" at face value? Or, to the extent I can translate "smart" into an INT score from ADD3.5 (Ooog, me smart OOC, me can do it! I think.), should I go with the ADD take on what that stat score means?

Taerom · Post by **Taerom** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 7:02 am

should I go with the ADD take on what that stat score means?

My ADD tells me...

...what was I doing again?

Seriously, though, I don't think you have to be ridiculously smart to learn three languages. A lot of people grow up bilingual, and I don't think they'd have to be a genius to learn another language. In real life, there are very significant similarities between a lot of languages, and I've always liked to think it'd be the same way in FR, although I've read nothing to support it. It would however, ease the learning of multiple languages.

Ellian · Post by **Ellian** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 4:27 pm

Raona wrote:If a "smart" PC can master three languages, is that about how I should calibrate myself, meaning that if born today said person could program in JAVA and Perl, plus speak English, but would be clueless when that French-speaking beau put the moves on him/her in their native French?

I would say learning a new language in FR is probably a lot like learning a new language in modern Europe. With so many different languages being spoken in such a small area, a person is bound to pick up a few words here and there if they travel every now and then, and quite a bit more if they sit down in a classroom or with a fluent friend and really study.

People in the US don't place quite as much value on learning languages other than English, except perhaps in the southern states along the Mexico border where a lot of people grow up in bilingual homes or learn Spanish to get preference in some professions (health care, law enforcement).

But Europe is a good example of a bunch of different cultures and languages thrown in together, and this is what I perceive FR to be like. A person might hear three different languages just walking down a crowded street in metropolitan Waterdeep, and if they're of at least average intelligence, eventually they'll start to pick up on one or two. It's not necessarily a matter of being intelligent enough to learn a new language, if you have enough exposure to it.

Jayson

Zach · Post by **Zach** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 5:25 pm

I bearly concider my self "smart" I know C++, pearl, cobol, java, english, spanish/spanglish, some french, some latin.... I do not concider myself a Grand master in any of them... english I failed 4 years in a row in High School.... and that was all I knew back then!... so yeah

I think with language... how HIGH you can learn numerous languages should be capped by your int. in my case... ANY idiot can learn a few words of a language... but it takes someone very smart to master them

Roleplaying one's character's intelligence and/or wisdom

Roleplaying one's character's intelligence and/or wisdom

The consesus seems to be...