Cantrips?

[Isolrem]

Basically, one skill that incorporates a bunch of spells that pretty much do nothing except look cool - used by street wizards, for showing off, etc. And if you Master it, it can also get pretty cool.

e.g.

Inept:
Create a copper that then disappears
Amateur:
Create a silver that then disappears
Create a flash of light
Novice:
Create a loud noise
Create a small fog
Apprentice:
Create a gold that then disappears
Makes eyes glow
Journeyman:
Turns water to wine
Adept:
Conjures a rose
Make a small rain
Expert:
Create a copper (and keep it!)
Make lightning strike ground!
Master:
Make an illusion of a priceless treasure!
It looks like you turn into a horrible monster!
Grandmaster:
You pull a living bunny out of your hat!
You create a mirror image of yourself!
etc.

[Glim]

Most of these effects I used to love RPing out, just for fun. I think it would be better to just smote such things out, as smotes can always show more than a spell could.

[Jadom]

It was my understanding that you weren't supposed to smote any sort of spells that you don't actually have codewise.

[Glim]

*blink*

Really?

I thought that was just with big things that would need to have a coded effect. I dont really see why small illusions such as that would cause any problems, or why it would require an entire spell to be coded to do things you could just as easily and more descriptively (sp?) so with smotes now.

[Argentia]

It was my understanding that you weren't supposed to smote any sort of spells that you don't actually have codewise.

I believe this is waved somewhat for illusionists and bards. They're given some leniency.

Edit: Oops, seems Mystra dissagrees. Don't listen to me.

[Isolrem]

This could be a very popular spell learnable at low levels by all wizards, but illusionists and mages get something of a bonus
e.g. extra effects

[Telk]

I don't mean to come off as rude or flaming. But why wouldn't an illusionist or other wizard be able to perform small tricks that are entirely IC, and that they are definitely able to do without having coding? Now I can see why this policy is in affect, casting powerful spells, to 'abuse' the system, if you will. But not even allowing someone to RP the class that they are, seems to me extremely hampering on RP.

I, personally don't think that you should have to have a coded effect to enact a spell that you know that you are able to do. Especially being that smoting the spell is a LOT better RP than hitting in, c '<spellname>' and that being the end of it.

IMO, this is no difference in saying that a bard juggling balls cannot juggle these balls because he doesn't have the 'juggle' skill. Or saying that a bard singing on the corner cannot sing on the corner, because he doesn't have the 'sing' skill. Where is the difference in these?

I just don't see why effort would be put into spells that can be RPed much better than any spell can do.

Note: I am speaking about spells that are IC for that character, and that that character would be able to cast. I.E. An illusionist making illusory tricks, etc.

[Zach]

I would have to agree with Telk...I as well do not want to sound upset or anything...

I see why this is in effect for larger things like pulling a rabbit from a hat, or making the earth shake.... little things, like... turning your hand blue or changing your voice higher or lower...

I could see also smoting making something float/levitate without having the levitate/fly spell... but that is common since... someone see's you do the illusion and then asks if you had the spell to cast and you say no... kind of makes you look like a fool...

I was just wondering on why such the harsh rule to cut DOWN on RP on a mud that is RP inforced?

[Dugald]

Depends what edition of wizard you're using. I'm pretty sure only AD&D has a cantrips spell (phb) which creates show off stuff with no lasting value or mechanical benefits...it may exist somewhere in 3.0 - .5 supplements, but it's definitely not wotc stuff.

I generally think we're all better off in it not existing. While it's kind of neat when used properly, it'd be a pain when it's taken advantage of. I mean some of those effects on the proposed list are way more powerful than a "cantrip" in the sense it's used in dnd...and would get very annoying very quickly if someone kept forcing "RP" on you in an unflattering manner.

A cantrip (as the named spell in 2nd ed) creates aromas, spices up meals, flickers lights (not blow out), dusts floors, and creates small objects of no value or use that are obviously not real for an hour a level. 3.0 kind of sort of did it with 0th level spells...but that'd be a pain in the rear. It's much more suitable for a tabletop game than for a mudd, imo. While it is a roleplay focused game, allowing someone to use their own imagination to initiate reactions from others through uncoded magical spells, could go south very quickly. It's all fun and games til the gnome smote magics your character to smell like sulphur for 20 in game hours

Juggling is reasonable because of dex scores, having big muscles is reasonable for high strength...if you want to take advantage of the in setting stereotypes of the wizard class - cram history/geography/cultures and talk about them - your character is in the intelligentsia of all of Toril, your PC actually attended something akin to college in a world where most are illiterate.

[Boe]

I think all in all this entire idea was put down to rest because the staff did not want players to have free range, if you will, on what they can and can't magically do. If your character wants to make small items then they should learn the create object spell. If your character wants to make feasts then they should learn the create food spell. There are enough spells to grant all the spellcasting players a wide variety of spells that can and will impress your friends and family.

Not to mention, it would be a pain just to code the entire thing, why not put the coders time to better use and have them make more meteor swarms and timestop spells? ^.^;;

-Kyle

[Kilak]

In second edition they had the spell Cantrip like Dugald said, but they also had the Prestidigitation non-weapon proficiency. This was a skill that allowed you to pull all those wonderful sleight of hand tricks that you would see people do in the marketplaces. Those are considered minor magic tricks today, but all they are is quick manipulation of the hands and the surrounding area. Little puffs of smoke are created using various smoking powders and pulling coins from the ears of little children are things that could be done with the skill. I always liked the skill, as it allowed me to pick up a few coins in town, and a resourceful player could make it usefull for other things like possibly palming a key or the puff of smoke in an area to draw away attention of others.

Do I think Cantrip needs to be coded in the game, no. Do I think that any wizard who has gone to the School of Wonder would have been taught to use little minor spells first, yes. I happen to like the cantrip ability to clean/freshen my wizards clothing. Nothing like coming out of the sewers with your party and everyone but the wizard is covered in you know what.

[Dalvyn]

I don't think there's any problem with wizards - especially illusionists - smoting spell effects that are obvious and "gentle"/harmless (dang, there's a good word for it, but I can't remember it).

E.g., smoting that you open your hand, whisper a word, and create a short puff of purple light lasting for a second and coming from your hand, is fine.

Smoting that you open your hand, whisper a word, and make a tiny creature with a bright green costume and a tall black hat appear in your hand, make the creature bow witha flourish, then disappear, ... is fine.

Smoting that you create the real-looking illusion of a dragon and scare people with it, is not fine.

Basically, if you just intend to enhance the roleplay not only for you but also for other people, and not simply give your character powerful abilities that (s)he shouldn't have, I guess it's fine to use smotes.

But, people... watch out for the spell 'major image'. Some amongst you have already witnessed what is possible to do with it. Much fun to be had, I promise!

[Keltorn]

I don't think there's any problem with wizards - especially illusionists - smoting spell effects that are obvious and "gentle"/harmless (dang, there's a good word for it, but I can't remember it).

Umm, "benign"?

[Isolrem]

benevolent, maybe?
I think the key thing about this spell is that it is a more restricted method of regulating special effects of what a player can do or can not do, an otherwise very ambiguous subject. Having a purplish light flicker in your palm is harmless in most cases, but still when a thief has cleverly removed all light sources from you and then shrouded you in darkness, this may be your way to know which way to direct your power word: speghettify
Coding difficulties? Many of these just bring forth an echo, hardly time consuming. (And for those that does more than bring an echo, these are exactly the ones that smotes may be insufficient to provide for)

I do not think, especially, that we need more meteor swarms over this.

[Tavik]

Frankly I don't really see the need for coded cantrips. Granted, you may be able to create purple light and therefore should be able to light up a darkened room. However, The way I veiw cantrips in the game is basically just for amusement, nothing more. If you need to create light in a dark room, there are already spells in place that will allow you to do this.

As for smoting spells or abilities you don't have, if I wanted to impress someone or show off with spells or whatever, I would smote out a spell I already knew, but to a lesser (never greater) extent. I don't see how there would be any problem with toning DOWN a spell. For example, you want to light your hand on fire to get some Ooos and Ahhhs. If you know burning hands, you could simply tone that down to create what you want by just smoting it. Or for the purple light, tone down color spray or witch light (there's another thread on coloring witch light so you'll have to take into account the conclusion there). You can also work feats you know into this. If you know silent/still spell, you can smote out creating the flaming hands without any indication of spellcasting.

Now, that being said, there are some spells that can't be justified as toned down. Disintegrate for example, can't really be toned down. If you only sort of transfer the target to a different plane, they are still sort of disintegrated and thus dead (can't half disintegrate and expect to live). I realize that if the spell fails, it only does a little damage, but that's still spell failure. No wizard is going to TRY to achieve spell failure. The game isn't coded for this, but you can read that in many books, spell failure results in death. Not much incentive for me to risk death to win a spar.

I do think it fair to note that illusionists, should be given a little room to play with this as they specialize in creating Illusions, but they are only illusions. They are not real and thus have no effect. You may be able to create the illusion of a purple light, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's actually giving off light.

BUT!, I hear you say, phantasmal killer can kill something using only an illusion. True, but it kills them by creating a illusion that that particular person/creature finds the most scary and just scaring them to death. That would mean that the illusion would vary between people. That, in my mind, means that the spell is more than just an illusion in that it searches the target's mind to find the most effective illusion. An illusion of the grim reaper (death) may scare a kobold to death, but a Kelemvorite would probably just smile, kneel down and ask the illusion how they might serve it.

Anyway, I know that was rather long winded, so I'll sum up and shut up. Smoting pretty much covers cantrips for you. If you need a certain coded effect, there's probably a coded spell that will get you that effect. For all the meaningless showing off, use a smote.

There's my thoughts.