Hey there,
Just curious, is it a bug that all characters, regardless of skill level, if succeeding in a dodge check, only dodge once per round? Seems odd that characters with grandmastered skill in dodge can only avoid one attack per round, independent of killmode or combatmode.
Thanks.
Dodge
Not imagining. It is a one dodge per round effect now. The skill level in dodge determines the chance of successfully dodging the one attack now, rather than giving a chance at every single attack.
Main reason, as I recall, that it was changed, is because dodge as it was essentially makes a warrior or thief with GM dodge and no armor unhittable by almost any mob. turning it back makes the mob opponents tougher and more of a challenge, and more incentive for fighters to wear that armour and be a tank, and a step taken to balance the warrior classes more vs. the spellcasters.
In any case, it was an intentional change which was brought over with the new spell system.
Main reason, as I recall, that it was changed, is because dodge as it was essentially makes a warrior or thief with GM dodge and no armor unhittable by almost any mob. turning it back makes the mob opponents tougher and more of a challenge, and more incentive for fighters to wear that armour and be a tank, and a step taken to balance the warrior classes more vs. the spellcasters.
In any case, it was an intentional change which was brought over with the new spell system.
"There is no safety for honest men except by believing all possible evil of evil men."
Kregor - Ranger of Tangled Trees
Rozor - Lady Luck's Duelist
Tygen - Ranger-Bard of Mielikki
Kregor - Ranger of Tangled Trees
Rozor - Lady Luck's Duelist
Tygen - Ranger-Bard of Mielikki
re
I see...however, my personal opinion seems fit that the system makes little to no real sense.
Do not take this as a gripe, as it is not meant to be.
In effect, dodging once per round is good for fighters/rogues with GM'ed skill in dodge. It's not great. What incentive do fighters/rogues have now to practice their dodge skill and get it to a higher level, as well as use lighter armour to sufficiently dodge more attacks than the armour-clad tank?
So now armour will be the great barrier between a PC and a MOB? Or two PCs in a PKill or spar situation? I don't quite understand the backing behind this. I do understand that a PC can effectively dodge 75% of the attacks from MOBs if his skill is grandmastered, but only one dodge per round, regardless?
Questions? Comments? Let me know if I am missing something here.
Do not take this as a gripe, as it is not meant to be.
In effect, dodging once per round is good for fighters/rogues with GM'ed skill in dodge. It's not great. What incentive do fighters/rogues have now to practice their dodge skill and get it to a higher level, as well as use lighter armour to sufficiently dodge more attacks than the armour-clad tank?
So now armour will be the great barrier between a PC and a MOB? Or two PCs in a PKill or spar situation? I don't quite understand the backing behind this. I do understand that a PC can effectively dodge 75% of the attacks from MOBs if his skill is grandmastered, but only one dodge per round, regardless?
Questions? Comments? Let me know if I am missing something here.
I really disagree here. Even at GM dodge, a very high dex, AND in light armour, I was still hit by mobs. I was not invincible at all. Not only does hindering dodge in this aspect make no little sense in real life it also has weakened the warrior class quite a bit. When fighting in real life you are bound to get combos when you hit the opponent a few times in a row but that is rather rare. Depending on whether you are fighting with weapons or not, there is almost always more blocking/parrying/dodging that actually hits. Plus now that all of our fighters get hit so quickly it makes spellcasters less willing to drag them along for adventures if they get hurt so often.
~Vanguardier Athon, High Priest of Torm~
~Moranall, Fighter of Waterdeep~
~Moranall, Fighter of Waterdeep~
I understand the desire to place fighters back into the 'tank' role and balance melee and casters more, but I also question this particular change. A mob can take upwards of 5 or 6 attacks on me but I have the chance to dodge merely 1? Wouldn't a reduction in the sucess % at each skill level but allowing a check at each attack be just as balancing for the current dodge problem? Perhaps 50% at GM with feats allowing it to reach higher %s. Once per round when you can possibly be hit so many types from one target feels a bit too far to the other side of the balance line. Could be wrong, just doesn't sit right. *shrug*
-Gilain- -Trilev- -Siros-
You do not need to change the world, merely leave it a little better than how you found it.
You do not need to change the world, merely leave it a little better than how you found it.
-
Zach
on another note... ANY fighter walking around killing in plain armour/no armor... is tweeking... and not a very respected fighter... nore even looked at as a fighter...
If you fight in lighter armour... leathers/studded leathers... they would get more damage done to them... making them not being able to go out and fight as much... when the chest peace gets damaged more then once per fight... not cost effectave as well...
I am not sure if Nysan was trying to say this... but how about for the level of Dodge you are in... the more % chance of making a Dodge of that attack per round... not make the % higher to dodge it... just a % to Dodge more of the attacks per round... unless... that is what it WAS to begin with...(and i had no problem with that) then i wouldn't know what to suggest...but if fighting a dragon and you are tanking with all your armor and all such... and you can only dodge one attack... does not seem... effective?
If you fight in lighter armour... leathers/studded leathers... they would get more damage done to them... making them not being able to go out and fight as much... when the chest peace gets damaged more then once per fight... not cost effectave as well...
I am not sure if Nysan was trying to say this... but how about for the level of Dodge you are in... the more % chance of making a Dodge of that attack per round... not make the % higher to dodge it... just a % to Dodge more of the attacks per round... unless... that is what it WAS to begin with...(and i had no problem with that) then i wouldn't know what to suggest...but if fighting a dragon and you are tanking with all your armor and all such... and you can only dodge one attack... does not seem... effective?
Well how about we use feats to up the number of times that one can dodge?
There are two feats that come to mind....Uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge.
Alow that when one trains uncanny dodge they are able to get a chance to dodge twice per round....improved uncanny dodge gives them the oppertunity to dodge three times per round.
This way fighters who wear only light armour cannot dodge 20 hits in a row, but they are able to do more then one dodge per round.
What do ya think?
There are two feats that come to mind....Uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge.
Alow that when one trains uncanny dodge they are able to get a chance to dodge twice per round....improved uncanny dodge gives them the oppertunity to dodge three times per round.
This way fighters who wear only light armour cannot dodge 20 hits in a row, but they are able to do more then one dodge per round.
What do ya think?
Counting bodies like sheep...to the rhythm of the war drums. ~~~ Maynard
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Zach
Hooray for Algon! I like this idea
EDIT: I forgot i am not alloud to only make that statement so i will add to it...
and i am not sure the full detail of the improved dodge feats... but each one could have a higher dex requirement... i'm not going to throw numbers around like i know what i'm talking about... cause I REALLY do not when it comes to stat numbers
EDIT: I forgot i am not alloud to only make that statement so i will add to it...
and i am not sure the full detail of the improved dodge feats... but each one could have a higher dex requirement... i'm not going to throw numbers around like i know what i'm talking about... cause I REALLY do not when it comes to stat numbers
Maybe I am just a bit biased when it comes to the dodge skill and wearing light armor, but I'll give my opinion anyways.
When you think about it, is there really much of a difference from a character who has a high dex (therefore, increasing their AC) and a character who is well skilled at dodging? The dex AC modifier is not only used for one attack per round, your body doesn't 'forget' how to move quickly.
I would think that someone, regardless of their level in dodging, would be able to attempt to dodge an incoming attack. If this seems like too much of an advantage for high dex, light/no armor wearing characters, then I would suggest a modifier directly related to your fatigue.
At 100% Stamina = No modifier
At 90% Stamina = 10% less chance of succeeding
Of course, this is only a suggestion and the actual ratio could always be altered.
I do like the suggestion of Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge as they would also work as a modifier for the chance of success at dodging an incoming attack or countering the effect of loss stamina.
Also, as a side note. We are not only talking about fighters here, but all characters in FK that have the ability to learn the dodge skill
When you think about it, is there really much of a difference from a character who has a high dex (therefore, increasing their AC) and a character who is well skilled at dodging? The dex AC modifier is not only used for one attack per round, your body doesn't 'forget' how to move quickly.
I would think that someone, regardless of their level in dodging, would be able to attempt to dodge an incoming attack. If this seems like too much of an advantage for high dex, light/no armor wearing characters, then I would suggest a modifier directly related to your fatigue.
At 100% Stamina = No modifier
At 90% Stamina = 10% less chance of succeeding
Of course, this is only a suggestion and the actual ratio could always be altered.
I do like the suggestion of Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge as they would also work as a modifier for the chance of success at dodging an incoming attack or countering the effect of loss stamina.
Also, as a side note. We are not only talking about fighters here, but all characters in FK that have the ability to learn the dodge skill
Bear in mind, that if the combat system moves to D20, dodge will end up being a +1 to Armor Class, not an evasion of one or more attacks before a tohit roll is even made, as it is with current Smaug code.
Herein is the big problem with the dodge skill as it is... it is extra... tagged on to the AC system that should be doing the work to determine whether a hit actually makes contact or not. As it is, the AC system is broken. AC currently counts for little, else the wizards would not have to wear leather armour (which they shouldn't be able to and cast spells, ICly) just to keep from getting hit, their spells which augment AC should suffice. But because we have armor absorption also tagged on (which breaks the AC) we have a dodge skill that also overrides the AC by giving you a % chance to avoid hits, regardless of the tohit roll the opponent scores.
Also, Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge are only available to rogues, barbarians, and certain prestige classes. The former allows you to keep your Dex bonus to AC even if you are surprized, and the latter allows you to keep it even if you are flanked (ie, against a backstab and circle stab, respectively)
Even if we were to code the feats in under the current system (which, I think, would be possible with a couple of twiddles to the code), I would assume (and advocate) that the two feats remain propriety of the rogues and barbarians - simply because these are designed for the benefit of the classes that would routinely wear little to no armor yet still be involved in toe to toe combat. They are meant to replace armor, not increase ones chance at soloing Hartsvale.
Herein is the big problem with the dodge skill as it is... it is extra... tagged on to the AC system that should be doing the work to determine whether a hit actually makes contact or not. As it is, the AC system is broken. AC currently counts for little, else the wizards would not have to wear leather armour (which they shouldn't be able to and cast spells, ICly) just to keep from getting hit, their spells which augment AC should suffice. But because we have armor absorption also tagged on (which breaks the AC) we have a dodge skill that also overrides the AC by giving you a % chance to avoid hits, regardless of the tohit roll the opponent scores.
Also, Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge are only available to rogues, barbarians, and certain prestige classes. The former allows you to keep your Dex bonus to AC even if you are surprized, and the latter allows you to keep it even if you are flanked (ie, against a backstab and circle stab, respectively)
Even if we were to code the feats in under the current system (which, I think, would be possible with a couple of twiddles to the code), I would assume (and advocate) that the two feats remain propriety of the rogues and barbarians - simply because these are designed for the benefit of the classes that would routinely wear little to no armor yet still be involved in toe to toe combat. They are meant to replace armor, not increase ones chance at soloing Hartsvale.
Last edited by Kregor on Mon May 08, 2006 9:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"There is no safety for honest men except by believing all possible evil of evil men."
Kregor - Ranger of Tangled Trees
Rozor - Lady Luck's Duelist
Tygen - Ranger-Bard of Mielikki
Kregor - Ranger of Tangled Trees
Rozor - Lady Luck's Duelist
Tygen - Ranger-Bard of Mielikki
I agree that rogues and barbarians should be the only one to get this, perhaps even rangers since they tend to wear leathers. I dont see how a fighter clad in full plate would be nimble enough to be jumping around all over the place.
Counting bodies like sheep...to the rhythm of the war drums. ~~~ Maynard
Keep in mind also that the realism of dodging multiple attacks is kind of iffy. Unless your name is Jet Li you're probably gonna take a hit or two when fighting four or five opponents -- no matter what kind of armour you're wearing. I agree that it helps characters who traditionally do not wear armour to somehow allow them to dodge more than once but for the most part I think having it this way is more realistic.
"A man may die yet still endure if his work enters the greater work, for time is carried upon a current of forgotten deeds, and events of great moment are but the culmination of a single carefully placed thought." - Chime of Eons
I don't believe we're trying to become invincible as was perceived by fighters that dodged. We just want to make it so we can do it more than once per round as fighters now are very weak when brought along against some decent mobs.
I'm not trying to whine/flame/complain/demand/anything negative, but in reply to what Kregor said about AC, I think it would be more reasonable (feel free to counterattack my point, it builds discussion) to leave dodge as it was and fix the AC system rather than limit dodge now. Unless changes to the system are planned for the near future, I feel that fighters, paladins, and rangers to an extent will be much less valuable than other classes.
I'm not trying to whine/flame/complain/demand/anything negative, but in reply to what Kregor said about AC, I think it would be more reasonable (feel free to counterattack my point, it builds discussion) to leave dodge as it was and fix the AC system rather than limit dodge now. Unless changes to the system are planned for the near future, I feel that fighters, paladins, and rangers to an extent will be much less valuable than other classes.
~Vanguardier Athon, High Priest of Torm~
~Moranall, Fighter of Waterdeep~
~Moranall, Fighter of Waterdeep~
I fail to see how warrior classes are less valuable... sorry... I would still take a fighter along as a spellcaster for a difficult opponent, and I would tend to think most spellcasters would. Bear in mind that most spellcasters are not invulnerable either, especially with the limited duration buffs and all.
Seeing as I play a warrior class PC on a regular basis, I do not see that my ability to adventure or quest, train, etc as a warrior has been hampered to make him unplayable. I dodge less, I get hit more, I repair my armour more, but I haven't died as a result of not being able to dodge every strike. If someone can give some quantitative examples of where their ability to adventure in certain places has been affected by reducing the ability to dodge, beneath a practical level, I will stand corrected.
Seeing as I play a warrior class PC on a regular basis, I do not see that my ability to adventure or quest, train, etc as a warrior has been hampered to make him unplayable. I dodge less, I get hit more, I repair my armour more, but I haven't died as a result of not being able to dodge every strike. If someone can give some quantitative examples of where their ability to adventure in certain places has been affected by reducing the ability to dodge, beneath a practical level, I will stand corrected.
"There is no safety for honest men except by believing all possible evil of evil men."
Kregor - Ranger of Tangled Trees
Rozor - Lady Luck's Duelist
Tygen - Ranger-Bard of Mielikki
Kregor - Ranger of Tangled Trees
Rozor - Lady Luck's Duelist
Tygen - Ranger-Bard of Mielikki
-
Tretch
- Sword Apprentice
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This is going to depend quite heavily on your RP. I can see Rangers taking the main brunt of the negatives as fighters can just up armour if they wish to ignore RP against it(if that happens to be the case for that char)Kregor wrote:I fail to see how warrior classes are less valuable... sorry... I would still take a fighter along as a spellcaster for a difficult opponent, and I would tend to think most spellcasters would. Bear in mind that most spellcasters are not invulnerable either, especially with the limited duration buffs and all.
Seeing as I play a warrior class PC on a regular basis, I do not see that my ability to adventure or quest, train, etc as a warrior has been hampered to make him unplayable. I dodge less, I get hit more, I repair my armour more, but I haven't died as a result of not being able to dodge every strike. If someone can give some quantitative examples of where their ability to adventure in certain places has been affected by reducing the ability to dodge, beneath a practical level, I will stand corrected.
However, I see both sides of this issue.
The dodge system was flawed, and needed to be changed somehow. Some think your fighter was "far from invincible", mine pretty much was. Considering that with resist buffs(elements, ie fire, etc), I could take on a Balor in a loin cloth.... I would say dodge was flawed....
Even if my fighter was an exception, I had a ranger that could "dance" his tail off with the same level of dodge. This is a problem. Especially since my other skills were terrible essentially. The way that character could be used (quite effectively) in combat didnt make much sense.
On the other side....
I dunno about the Jet Li reference, etc. "We are not saying we are Jet Li here..." You mean.... we are not "Grandmasters" at dodging?
Seems to be the situation to me.I think the best way would be to change it respective to class. The amount of chances you can dodge is completely based off of your class. Warriors get one, rangers/barbs two(maybe three), and thieves get four(maybe 3, if rangers/barbs get 2).
Yes, possibly four chances for a thief to dodge the attack. Meaning that only a warrior will have a full clean shot on a thief if the thief successfully dodge all of his/her chances.
I think thieves need help... period. This could be a way of helping them stay alive. Don't worry, the added dodging won't make them "overpowered", remember....they have like 12 hp lol. Plus, even with GM... dodging them all prolly won't happen. If you think it will make a thief too powerful, I would bet money you haven't played the class for a significant amount of time on FK.
Tis all I got.... thoughts from an old fighter
Tretch
A young male human looks at your claw, his eyes widen, "Wha-what is that on your claw?"
You look to the claw, stopping abruptly
You yell, "Git et off! Git et off!" and begin to hop up and down, shaking your hand,
voice turning to a girlish scream!
You look to the claw, stopping abruptly
You yell, "Git et off! Git et off!" and begin to hop up and down, shaking your hand,
voice turning to a girlish scream!
RE
I don't necessarily see it as a class-coded skill as you explained it, Tretch. I personally see the skill as something, as the skill level is levelled up, regardless of class, you gain the chance to dodge successfully more times per round, as per it was before the code change. I didn't see the warrior class as overpowered by the dodging, as they still take the "successful" blows.
Dodging once per round in itself, in my opinion, is out of place. Why would a highly-trained combatant, learning the skill of avoiding the enemy's blows, focusing on his DEX stat rather than his STR stat, only, every round, dodge only once?
I honestly do not see the reasoning behind it. Perhaps you can clear this up, Kregor? Others?
I never saw the problem pre-code-change. Warriors are always the melee combatants, whether they swing the heavy sword of dodge the flurry of attacks.
Dodging once per round in itself, in my opinion, is out of place. Why would a highly-trained combatant, learning the skill of avoiding the enemy's blows, focusing on his DEX stat rather than his STR stat, only, every round, dodge only once?
I honestly do not see the reasoning behind it. Perhaps you can clear this up, Kregor? Others?
I never saw the problem pre-code-change. Warriors are always the melee combatants, whether they swing the heavy sword of dodge the flurry of attacks.
Just a question...
Erm...
Haaaave any of you guys ever put on a real suit of armour (chain or plate) and... held a real...sword all of which would add about 65 additional pounds to your body weight ( not counting the packs etc that you tote) and tried to... leap around? lol
I am willing to bet ...ahhhh..no but if there is someone who has PLEASE share! As a faithful little Tymoran...the Banna is willing to bet they would tell you it is not an easy task... to be encumbered by a full suit of armour and hop around like a little bunny. We are talking about dodge...not stumble lol I think the term" light on your feet"...is not one which would easily describe a warrior in full plate. I challenge you to give it a whirl. 
Though I have never worn armour, I have handled it and hoisted it in my past years working in wonderful world of theatre
Honestly... if you can strap this stuff on...and manage to hop back and forth a few times while swinging your bad axe and your big honkin +4 Sword of doom... then Bring it! WOot! buuut... I am willing to bet you MIGHT get one dodge in... if your darned good. 
I am not talking about code... I am talking about common sense
yeah... darn it stinks now... my Banna will no longer have the hope of completely avoiding being hit if she GMs Dodge *snaps* AH well... I guess She never will kick Algon's Bootay in a spar. *cackle* well unless she fights dirty
*innocent*
he, he, he Lighten up guys.... its a game
Oooohhh and ...BTW it is very hard to GM shimmy now... who went and "twiddled" with my shimmy code!? *fumes* ( sorry that is another board isn't it?)
*shimmy*
You learn from your success and improve at Shimmy!
WOoT!
"The Banna"
Erm...
Haaaave any of you guys ever put on a real suit of armour (chain or plate) and... held a real...sword all of which would add about 65 additional pounds to your body weight ( not counting the packs etc that you tote) and tried to... leap around? lol
I am willing to bet ...ahhhh..no
but if there is someone who has PLEASE share! As a faithful little Tymoran...the Banna is willing to bet they would tell you it is not an easy task... to be encumbered by a full suit of armour and hop around like a little bunny. We are talking about dodge...not stumble lol I think the term" light on your feet"...is not one which would easily describe a warrior in full plate. I challenge you to give it a whirl. Though I have never worn armour, I have handled it and hoisted it in my past years working in wonderful world of theatre Honestly... if you can strap this stuff on...and manage to hop back and forth a few times while swinging your bad axe and your big honkin +4 Sword of doom... then Bring it!
WOot! buuut... I am willing to bet you MIGHT get one dodge in... if your darned good. I am not talking about code... I am talking about common sense
yeah... darn it stinks now... my Banna will no longer have the hope of completely avoiding being hit if she GMs Dodge *snaps* AH well... I guess She never will kick Algon's Bootay in a spar. *cackle* well unless she fights dirty
*innocent*
he, he, he Lighten up guys.... its a game
Oooohhh and ...BTW it is very hard to GM shimmy now... who went and "twiddled" with my shimmy code!? *fumes* ( sorry that is another board isn't it?)
*shimmy*
You learn from your success and improve at Shimmy!
WOoT!
"The Banna"
"May Fortune climb into your lap and refuse to leave"
Builder Council: Journeyman
Builder Council: Journeyman