Some OOC from behind the scene

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 1:24 pm

I hesitated between two titles for this thread: the one I used and "When roleplay does not go your way" and I am still not sure which one of those is the best one. My aim here is multiple:

- I want to explain some OOC reasoning from behind the scene and explain why some things happen the way they do during major roleplays; all that while being as open as possible about those reasons (without giving out IC information relative to the roleplay).

- I want to send off a clear message to those I would herebelow name "whiners" (unlike some who hide and prefer to state their negative criticism on private channels and behind people's backs, I prefer being direct - I am talking for example about Elwin's and Dapher's players, but there might be more). As a side note, I am not pointing fingers to make some people look bad (there might be many explanations to some behaviours, being youth and not very mature being one of them).

- I want to state some facts about roleplaying that I - apparently wrongly - considered common sense.

First about the reasoning behind a roleplay. Different imms might have different priorities in the roleplays they oversee. For some, humour might be the number 1 priority. For me, the number 1 priority is consistency. That means that, if a character does something that should lead to his/her death, then (s)he will die. There is no free joker card to get out of trouble just because you are an adventurer and so you should always win.

Now, of course, in most cartoons and movies (well, American movies at least), the heroes win and save the day... and they mostly do that on their own. That is clearly fiction though, and not very consistent in my opinion. If someone goes, alone, to try and face a whole army, well, there is a good chance that they are going to die. And if the monsters/people in that army are clever or have clever bosses, they are going to take the dead's equipment.

Am I saying that you cannot go and play the hero? Not at all... I am simply saying that, if you do so - that is, if you choose to do so -, then face the consequences. Your character dies? Well... you did that to him/her. Your equipment is gone and your allies cannot recover it? Well... you did that to yourself.

To the whiners... Don't blame the imm behind the roleplay or say that the roleplay is useless and that it sucks because your actions have consequences that you do not like.

There is no rule, no guarantee in the "rules" of the mud saying that your character is a big hero and that (s)he will always win and be rescued, no matter how daring/stupid (s)he is. Heroes generally win in the end, in mangas, cartoons, fantasy books, and movies... But not here.

Similarly, there is no rule saying that your corpse and your equipment will be recoverable. If you go and die in a far-away place, or die to clever mobs, you might not be able to get your things back. After all, do your character not loot mobiles that (s)he kills? Why should clever mobs not do so then?

Now, to be "fair" and to take in consideration that this is a game and it should be fun, I (and most other imms behind some roleplay) tend to try and come up with ideas to help those who simply had bad luck. If you log in and find your character in the middle of a large group of evil monsters and die... then you will most likely be raised and told that ICly, you were not killed and simply "woke up" in another, safer, place.

If you die during a roleplay, as part of a group, or because of a bug, then there might be some deity intervention, or a friendly priest with access to resurrection magic, coming your way.

But, as a rule of thumb, when you have your character do something ICly stupid, when you make your character do that on his/her own without seeking other people's help, when you do that to show off or play the hero or hoard the glory, ... then don't expect reality to be bent so you get out of trouble and do not have to face the consequences of your act. And, when that happens, your first reaction should be to blame yourself, not to blame the roleplay or the imm.

And, to conclude, some facts about roleplay - most of those I have already alluded to above -, that I think are common sense. There exist some game where, no matter what you do, you can still "win". You can click on the "resurrect" button and your character is back to full health, with all his equipment and gold, for some "magical" reason. In those games, most of the things you do do not have any consequence. In my opinion, this does not (and cannot) hold in a roleplay game, where all actions are IC.

If I had to state what I am trying to say in one short rule, I would use the oft-repeated motto "IC actions have IC consequences"; or "You(r character) can do whatever you want, but you will have to face the consequences."

That simple rule seems pretty "common sense" to me... and I cannot avoid being either surprised, or annoyed, or completely peeved off when I hear that people ridiculed the roleplay or blamed the imms behind the roleplay for the bad consequences of their actions. Don't blame anyone else than you if your actions have consequences that you did not want, but deal with it ICly.

To conclude, I want to state that this is just my opinion - perhaps expressed in a rather rash way because some recent events and "behind my back" comments annoyed me -. All this is open to discussion, as long as it does not end in flame wars, in which case the discussion will be a failure and the thread will have to be closed.

Lathander · Post by **Lathander** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:39 pm

I would also like to express an opinion on this issue, but from a different angle. One of the issues FK imms face is whether we should choose to exclude specific players from an rp that the imm takes many hours to create. In the past, such questions have contributed to the misconception that imms play favorites in choosing who is allowed to participate. It is a delicate distinction, yet an important one.

I would respectfully ask that our players think about this from the perspective of someone who put hours designing rooms, recreating mobs, developing an interesting story and being sure to involve good, evil and neutral PCs all in the same rp. With this perspective in mind, consider the following occurs while the imm is attempting to ICly interact with anywhere from one to three groups of people in different locations simultaneously:

1.) A single PC chooses to play hero while others rp
2.) The PC dies because of his/her choice
3.) The dead PC's player gets upset that no one will charge in to recover his/her corpse and risk suffering a similar fate
4.) The player complains using OOC methods in game
5.) The player complains over out-of-game chat channels
6.) The player(s) quit as others rp with an imm to have them resurrected (an imm btw that left playing his/her mortal character to deal with the resurrections
7.) Etc. etc. etc.

After objectively considering the above list from a realistic point of view, and not one of defensiveness, I would hope that one could at least understand the reasoning why an imm might be hesitant to include such a player in a subsequent rp.

To me, there is still a worse possible outcome. It is an outcome I have both experienced personally and seen happen to other imms. One of the most often suggested improvements for FK is an increase in imm-run rp. Try to objectively put yourself in the position of the imm that has to deal with the negativity detailed above and then ask yourself "If I was that imm, how motivated would I be to spend my time working on another rp?"

Lerytha · Post by **Lerytha** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 7:15 pm

As a question, as it is an open discussion, do you find that the RPs are fun for the imms despite these negative occurences? Are the negatives in the minority?

I know that I myself was involved about three days ago in a minor situation in which I OOCly failed to anticipate the OOC situation as much as the IC situation (basically RPing into an area using teleport when there was not an imm around - not deliberately, but I nonetheless did it). However, upon being told about it, I apologised and all was well.

Is there anything that we as players can do to prevent imms disliking running the RPs which bring me a lot of enjoyment. This entire RP recently has been some of the most interesting, exciting and (at times) worrying roleplay I've ever had.

If there is a risk that imms are feeling they do not want to continue running them in the future, I for one want to know what I can do to stop that happening, because I understand (and sympathise). How can we make it fun for the imms, is my question?

I don't actually know what this post is saying, looking back... but... well... maybe there's a few things in there.

~Ol

Dugald · Post by **Dugald** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 9:01 pm

I think the important thing for players to realize, is that killing dragons solo without a scratch isn't a valid IC reason to think you can walk into a place /swarmed/ with powerful, hateful, alien entities. It's like the old conan comics, he might go up against ogre kings and troll warlords - but you don't see him running head first into an entire army of very angry things by himself.

Adventuring, in dnd, works on a much smaller number scale than dealing with armies. Once your adventuring troop comes across that marching army of orcs/goblins/drow the troops purpose changes to more of support than "we'll take care of this!"

Zach · Post by **Zach** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 9:05 pm

I would like to thank all involved in the RP going on... both IMM and chars alike... it involves THINKING! i like it!

It's not mindless 'hi how are you, lets go do some quests we've done several times before'

it's exciting... and... enjoyable

thank you

Elwin · Post by **Elwin** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 9:48 pm

I was not whining about the RP itself. I am allowed my opinion. That opinion was kept quiet and in a private channel because I wanted it to remain that way. I am honestly tired of things that people say in a private channel being posted about on these forums. We talk in there about things that we do not want others to know. That is the entire reason for these OOC chat rooms. I had no major problem with the RP in question, and I have never had any problem with the way Imms run the RP. Does that mean I cannot vent a little bit about my character dying during it? No, I do not think it does. I am allowed to vent my frustration in any way I choose. If I have a problem that I think should be rectified, I will come to the Imms like a mature adult and speak to them about it. If I am just venting, I will tell people I am friends with that I'm pissed off about it. That is my choice, and I will continue to do it in the future. Honestly, after about five minutes, I was calmed down about it. So, in conclusion, I would appreciate it if things I say in private are not passed on to other people behind my back.

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:46 pm

Since you bring up the topic of the IRC chat and call it a private channel, allow me to say my piece about this topic as well. Now, I'm not basing what I am writing below on any legal point of view, but simply on common sense.

Whining in a "quiet and private channel". Did I write that players were not allowed to whine wherever they want and whenever they want? I do not think so. I simply criticized the whining against the roleplay or the imms as something (1) that is based on wrong perceptions because those events are just the consequences of some actions and not simply based on the whim of the imms, and as something (2) that is unfair to those who work to provide the roleplay, especially when it is done behind those people's backs.

Just like people can vent all they want, I can express what I think about their venting, the reason of their venting, and the manner in which they vent.

I don't buy the "This is a private channel." excuse. Private from who? Private from the imms? Where the imms do not hear what you say? Sheesh, isn't it time to stop basing everything on a fake "them against us" attitude already!

In case this was not clear yet, the imms (and coders, builders, newbie council members, ...) work to provide a (free) game where all can have fun. They (imms, coders, ...) do not work against the players, but for and with them. Sure enough, sometimes they have to act as policemen and seek out those who would not follow the rules, in an attempt to make the game fair to all.

So, obviously, considering it as some sort of challenge in which you have to "beat the imms", where it's fun to go and badmouth them and their work behind their back, is clearly not a very mature behaviour, nor the right behaviour if you want the provided services to continue.

And finally about this chat channel... I am not sure what the initial goal of this channel is/was, but it sure turned into something rather... vile (for lack of a better word). It might have been at one time a gathering place where FK players could discuss various topics not related to the game, could talk about themselves (the players).

From all reports and logs, it has unfortunately turned into a spot where players share the IC information their characters should only use in game, or chat about what is happening to their characters...

Or worse, share (dirty) tricks to get the most out of the game, share quest walkthroughs, spread rumours and whatnots about imms playing favouritism, and strengthening the destructive "them against us" attitude I mentioned above.

Or still worse, share knowledge about who is who's alt, badmouth other people's (both players and imms) work mischieviously, or set up roleplays where two characters - who have absolutely no reason to meet up and help each other, and sometimes even have all reasons NOT to help each other - will help each other just because they are played by OOC friends.

All those things happened over there in the IRC channel. And, sure enough, all those who did those things could similarly say "That was in a private channel, I can bloody do what I want." Sure enough, that might be valid from a legal point of view... but when you come to think of the mud as a service that a group of people is collaborating to provide, those things "done in a quiet and private channel" are just mischievious and destructive, and only achieve one thing: sap away all motivation to continue this kind of work.

(Now, I touched topics that this talk about the chat channel brought to my mind. Elwin, do not take this post as my accusing you of doing all those things: I am talking in a more general way, and my goal here is not to single out anybody, but to clearly state the kind of behaviours that slowly lead to destroying the game.)

Elwin · Post by **Elwin** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 11:27 pm

First of all, I know there are some perhaps malicious things that people say in the IRC. However, that was not the case in this instance. If you wish to talk about maturity, would it not have been more mature to speak directly to me OOCly, rather than finger me in a post about this? I meant nothing malicious to any Imm involved in the RP or the game for that matter, as I have never done before. If I honestly had ill-feelings toward the Imms, I would not build areas for the game or anything else I might do. Perhaps, next time, you could confront the player personally. You have the right to interpret what rumours you hear as you wish. I just ask you get both sides of the story instead of taking what one person tells you and acting on it in a knee jerk fashion like you have done here. I have never felt that the Imms are against me, save for perhaps that occasion, which was just out of frustration. It happens, people make mistakes and perhaps say something they should not. Does that mean that I should be outted by someone else for it, and then called a whiner for it? You say you did not want to point fingers at anyone, but that is exactly what you did. Once again, I meant no harm in what I said about the RP. It was me venting. I have so far enjoyed the RP on a whole, for those parts I have been there for it at least. An act of frsutration is no reason to be called a whiner though.

Caelnai · Post by **Caelnai** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 11:40 pm

Dalvyn wrote:I am talking in a more general way, and my goal here is not to single out anybody, but to clearly state the kind of behaviours that slowly lead to destroying the game.

Dal, I've been out of town, so I read your first post with confusion, being unaware of both the RP and any "complaints" afterwards. However, you did seem to single several people out in it; by name, no less.

Honestly, is this discussion accomplishing anything besides a witchhunt? People who want to metagame will find a way, be it irc or IM. But I'm not sure what public accusations accomplish other than to upset everyone.

Lathander · Post by **Lathander** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:04 am

Dal's statement about not meaning to single anyone out was not in reference to his comments about Elwin. It was in reference to the litany of things he listed as happening in such chat rooms. He was attempting to make clear that he was not accusing Elwin of performing all of the things on that list. I am sure that Garl would not deny he mentions Elwin's name in his initial post concerning the specific incident described there.

Yes, I would agree that those who choose to metagame will continue to do so. It does not lessen the frustration on the part of those who take the time to put together the events when it happens. I believe, and I can't speak for him, that Garl used specific names in his initial post because the complaints were directed at him behind his back and he wanted it out in the open. It is a thin line between saying something "behind someone's back" and saying it "privately over a chat channel." To me, the line becomes even thinner when those participating in the chat room are largely FK players. I do not know if this was the case in this latest incident because I have not seen any logs of the conversation. I do know from experience that such things happen.

Apillini · Post by **Apillini** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 2:45 am

Caelnai wrote: Honestly, is this discussion accomplishing anything besides a witchhunt? People who want to metagame will find a way, be it irc or IM. But I'm not sure what public accusations accomplish other than to upset everyone.

Adding to Lathander's statement, I think that the point Dalvyn was trying to make related to the "behind people's backs" issue. I don't think it was an outward accusation, but rather it was letting the players in question know, up front and to their faces, what it is he is talking about, and it takes away any presumptions that other players might have, such as worrying "is he talking about me?" etc. That is a very valid way to do things and actually should cut down on some unneeded hostility from people who would presume.

Furthermore, Dalvyn has brought this up for discussion for all to see. No one has to agree with him, nor is he asking anyone to do so. I would, however, think it is within the rights of those who spend so much time and effort coming up with a roleplay this elaborate to expect those who either do not share the enthusiasm for the roleplay (for whatever reason), or require time away from it to "vent" to do so more privately on something that could actually be considered private. An IRC channel is by no means private, especially the channel in question. I would assume, though I may well be wrong, that unless this channel has been locked to anyone without expressed invitation, that it is open who anyone who plays Forgotten Kingdoms. This, to me, does not sound like a private channel.

Nysan · Post by **Nysan** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 5:46 am

To lighten the mood a bit...

If any imm is feeling a bit down about something a player did, feel free to hunt down one of my characters and vent. Cause a cave-in, drop a bookcase, whatever. It might help. Equipment is easy to replace, but an imm's good mood is priceless.

In other news, want something 'private'? Use ICQ or some other messager service, not an open chat room. Not an attack, merely an observation.

Enjoy,

Mariela · Post by **Mariela** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 6:05 am

Just wow.

I did not even bother to read all of that. Sorry. I will probably repeat other sentiments... but this is how I see things.

a) Thou shalt not say, "No Fair" when you walk into the IMM's plot willingly.

There is 100 and 6000 things to do on Forgotten Kingdoms that have NOTHING to do with IMM pushed plot. I have several characters who have managed to stayout of dealing with demons and Ardeep. (For a current example.) Not because they couldn't join in on the fun. But because I did not feel oocly that I wanted to dig into that plot so soon after my first character sort of left the area. (Note that I play Mariela. *Points to her name* Seemed a bit like cheating if I dived right into it with another character.)

Now. Even before the demons, I have had people sort of "vent" at me about their character's dying in RPs. And then in the next breath, while relating the cirumstances, ADMITTED that the IMM's didn't just throw the plot into their lap. They went out SEEKING the plot.

(IE The difference is this for those who didn't understand that. A plot in the lap would be, "Oh I was walking down the street and a demon appeared and tried to sell me with no waring. Walking into a plot is, "there is demons in ardeep.. let's get 'em!")

When you go out chasing the danger... you forfeit your right to be surprised when the danger bites you in the backside. (That includes beating the danger, spying on the danger or interacting with the danger in any way shape or form.)

Thank you Dalvyn for starting this thread.
It is something people need to be aware of.

The IMM's at the end of the day are people.
Real people.
Behind computer screens JUST LIKE YOU.
They have..
a. lives
b. feelings
c. attitudes (go with me on this one. You gotta have sauce to be incharge!)

Naturally if you are standoffish to them, they are going to take it personally. It's HARD running things for other people you know, much less people you do not know personally. They come up with what they think would be fun and try it out. Some of it works, some of it doesn't.

That is why they sit on the ressurection buttons. I was in a plot where the ending did not go well for anyone in a MASSIVE group. We all got shunted back to Waterdeep with a... "Oooo.... umm.... yeah. That was great guys but wow... you guys really should have gotten it better together. Go with our love."

I personally thought that was classy. They did not have to ressurect us, but they did. That makes them good peeps.

The IMM's and the Mud do not have to let us have ressurection as open as it is right now. We should be a bit grateful how easy it is, relatively, to get brought back.

Does this mean that I think all the IMM's are like stellar people and defend them to death. No. A few of them have rubbed me the wrong way by being brisk with me to begin with. Or misinterpreting me. (I do have a rather perverse sense of humor that boarderlines on dark and sarcastic.) But, we get it ironed out in the ends. Because I keep the simple fact in mind that......

If I truly am not having fun...why am I sitting in front of my computer? I ain't getting paid for this. And I do have other things I could be doing as a hobby. Like... umm... tabletop?

And maybe if I am taking it THAT personal that I am getting ulcers over my characters, Maaaaaaaaaaaybe this isnt' a good site for me. and Maaaaaaaaaaaybe I have been a bit tightly wound.

AND

The IMM's do listen. You just gotta talk to them nicely. They like having a bit of respect now and again since they do all this work for us ungrateful players. Worse to worse, cool off, and write them an email. There is only like six or seven of them you can email to, BESIDES just simply private messaging them.

These opinions are that of a mind who bows to authority. Argue with me at length and often.

Thank you.
The loud mouth is signing off.

Nysan · Post by **Nysan** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 7:11 am

If you take a game personally...
If you cannot laugh at the misfortune of your character...
If you are not having fun...
If you think there is a plot to ruin your life...

Turn off your computer for a bit, make some popcorn, watch a movie, and tell yourself 10 times "It is just a game. It was designed for fun and entertainment. ". Then look yourself in the mirror and laugh at yourself for getting so worked up over words on a screen.

Mele · Post by **Mele** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 7:18 am

Hear hear Mariela. :)

-D

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 10:13 am

Regarding naming people explicitly. Believe me, I thought long and hard about whether to give out the names or not. In the end, I could think of no good reason why I should not give out the names, while I had several reasons to cite them.

As Lathander wrote, I wanted to be as open as possible about the situation, and that to me meant giving out the names. I also did not see any reason not to disclose the names of those who were making personal attacks against the roleplay and/or the imm behind it (that would be me, for that particular part of the roleplay). More, since those complaints were made in what I consider a FK-public channel, I saw no reason to keep the names hidden (what is said in that IRC channel, or through AIM then repeated to players, then other players, then other again, I would not call "private" in any way). Then, finally, either those whines were justified and there is no reason to be ashamed that the names are known - or those whines had no reason to be, and those who made them (in a public way, in my opinion) can just admit they were wrong and go on with it.

That being said, you are still allowed to think that I shouldn't have explicity cited the name, even after that big paragraph where I explain why I did it. If you want to say that it is a bad thing that I gave out the names, then feel free to flood my PM box.

Yet, my giving out the names is not the topic of this particular thread ... I gave them for the reasons cited above, but my main goal in starting this thread was to start a discussion on the more important topics like what players can expect from a roleplay, what players cannot expect from a roleplay, what those assassine whines behind people's back can do, and later about the IRC chat channel.

I would hate to see a post like

(important topic 1) (important topic 2) (important topic 3) NAME (important topic 4) (important topic 5) NAME (important topic 6) (important topic 7)

generate answers like

You ugly little son of a troll and a bar-lgura, you gave out their names! Shame on you!

where all the important topics are ignored.

So please, focus on the most important things in this thread and do not let them go unnoticed because names were given. And, as I wrote above, if you do not agree with my explanation as to why I gave out the names, feel free to send me a PM about it, but this thread is not the place for it.

Lorion · Post by **Lorion** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 2:15 pm

just some things i want to say about Dalvyn's first post. Note that i am aware I am not always making sense with this, but it's my opinion anyway.

Firstly about people whining. Yes I do know and realize that if you hear that people are complaining behind your back about you in a way that you think is unjustified it isn't something that puts you in a good mood. I do see your problem with this, and i can't altogether say that it is a nice thing to do so. However I can also understand the other side. As much as you(and with that i mean all of you who said this in other topics, not someone special) can say that this is just a game and the character you play is just a mass of bits and bytes, this might be true, but it doesn't FEEL true for you. You have created this character, in a way, given birth to it, you have looked at the character's good and bad sides, you have led him from something that would die to the first goblin to someone who can beat a dragon and still laugh. You have invested lots of time that the character looks and has just the equipment you want him to have, and most of us put a lot of our own personality into that character.
If something, anything happens to this character, death, loss of items, a permanent or temporary handicap, I know *I* will be affected emotionally by it, and quite strongly at that, and I guess quite a few people would be as well. It doesn't matter if you have caused the consequences yourself, by foolishly attacking a horde of demons. At the moment when your character dies you most likely won't realize this, and would feel the urge to vent. From what i read, this is what Elwin did. He was upset and needed to do something. After a short time he calmed down again and realized that what he might have said about Dalvyn was stupid. I would probably feel the same if something like this happened to me, but i would probably get over it by taking some hours of sleep. Unfortunately i also know this method doesn't work for anyone. So, is Elwin right when he said things about Dalvyn he later regretted saying? no. Is Dalvyn right when he thinks people are rational enough that you can expect them not to do these things? no. There is no right way on this in my opinion. You should try to each understand the other's point and get back on good terms with each other again.

Now my other comment about your idea of consistent RP. I do understand your point here too, of course, but personally I am strongly against this. On the other hand, i usually ask for more realistic fantasy worlds, which would somehow contradict that, but as I stated before I don't claim to always make sense. For me, RP is something to have fun, and I do not like it if things get realistic in such a way that it takes away from the fun part. One such things is permanent death. I have not played tabletop RPGs very often unfortunately, but I do know that some(actually probably most) DMs let the characters of their fellow players die if it is reasonable. If they were acting stupidly, attacking without reason, trying to play the hero, as Dalvyn said, or whatever else. This is fine for them, and probably many other people. I personally do not like it though. The same would go for just losing all the equipment you have gathered on a character. Of course it is realistic that clever mobs would take the equipment, but does it make the game more fun if they do? For some, maybe yes, for me not. I would further add to this that if i do one of these mistakes that would lead to such a situation, it would probably mostly be because i didn't look at all the facts, because I misjudged a situation or anything else which can be described as myself being ignorant/stupid, and not because i say to myself "Hmm. with these odds it is most likely that I will die. But the Imm won't let this happen, I am sure of that. SO let's try it anyway". If in this situation my character would die, lose his equipment for good or get any other harm done, I would most likely be rather upset, and if i'd talk about this with someone else, I would probably not really look at everyone's feelings that I talk about behind their back.
You say that I have no guarantee that i will always win, and this is of course true, but I don't think it will be good if people lose the enjoyment they have with playing FK. On the other hand of course I also understand that you don't want to have every level 10 character singlehandedly attack the demon horde, leaving you the task of somehow keeping them alive. It's..not easy..for neither party..but I don't think any party should see only their point of view, but also understand the other part. Maybe you could find a way of punishing blatantly stupid people in a way that is harsh but not that..permanent?

I probably don't make too much sense at all here. I don't mean to offend anyone, neither Imms nor "whiners", maybe you can call this post a whining itself, maybe it is just ranting.

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 2:43 pm

I agree with most of the points you make, Lorion.

Up to now, nobody has permanently lost anything (or, for the negation-haters, all losses are temporary). During the most recent roleplay, four characters died to the demons. A died for apparently no reason (he went to attack the demons immediately upon logging, without saying anything); B and C died after attempting (and failing) to hide from the demons; and D died while trying to play the "I am the hero, I am going to save the day on my own" act. By some twist of the roleplay, two of them have already recovered their body and equipment. The other two have not (yet).

What I mean with that is that I can understand that this is a game and that this is played for fun, but I am more tempted to "bend fate" (i.e., try to come up with consistent solutions to alleviate the losses caused by the death) for those who were unlucky or who actually added to the roleplay. I am much less eager to find solutions for those who did not contribute to the roleplay but rather wanted to hog the glory (even though their losses too are not permanent).

And, for what it's worth, a thought that occured to me while I was reading your description of the whining on the IRC channel as a normal, temporary, reaction to an event that went against what you hoped for... I wonder if you would also come up with this explanation if the situation was reversed... Let's say I suddenly got enraged by a misbehaving player and I decided to slay them and eat their corpse. Would the "that's a natural reaction... I calmed down after 5 minutes, you know" still hold?

One could argue that my "going mad" by slaying and eating a corpse has lasting consequences, while the whining on the chat channel does not... I would not agree with that. I see all the rumours and talk behind people's back and info sharing and OOC set-up of falsely IC events as having very bad, and lasting consequences too.

There. Thank you for the points you raise though. I just tried to address them from "the other point of view".

Lorion · Post by **Lorion** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 2:56 pm

Good question you ask there. And not really one I can find a satisfying answer to. The only answer(that I know isn't satisfying) would be, that that this is a reaction within the mud, and would have consequences for the character. The whining thing is something that happens between people, not characters. Besides that, you are an Imm. You have been chosen for this because people think you have a great maturity and responsibility. Surely you would stand above something like getting enraged, and could handle all this in an objective way? (in case you do not notice it, i am kidding a bit, but not 100%. I do think that those that are chosen as Imms at least should be more emotionally stable towards these situations than the average player like me. This would also be why I do not like having responsibility. I do not think I could always bear all this. See how much I trust you Imms to do everything right? :p)

Elwin · Post by **Elwin** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 4:18 pm

I understand Dalvyn's point of view about the situation. But, to act like I give nothing to the game but complaints is a little rude in my opinion. That was a one time thing. I do not complain about the game very often. However, I do contribute to the game what I can, both ICly and OOCly. I have built a couple areas, helped other players with areas, and have requested to do some more building. Am I saying I have the right to say whatever I want whenever I want? No. What I am saying is that what I said was meant for people I knew and trusted. The poeple I said that in front of were people I thought knew me and would understand that it was just venting for a moment.