Over looked Communication

Kregor · Post by **Kregor** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 7:13 pm

As some have mentioned, Ardeep is actually a larger forest than some realize. While small by standards of the Misty and the High, it is still over 100 miles across, and populated by dense trees in most areas.

In terms of FR canon (mostly from the game supplements and etc.)
Ardeep does still have pockets of elves in shrines, etc. Though, there are also undesirable elements there as well. There is a ruined Shrine to Shar within its confines, rumored to still be a sacred ground for the elder goddess. There are the elements of evil humanoid races, that are hinted at by the presence of the gnolls within the mountain pass. There are also other ruins within the forest, that could honestly be developed to turn Ardeep in to quite the dungeon crawl area, if that's what we desired.

However, we also need to condider, from an FK-specific, OOC perspective, that Ardeep has been made into the area that most newbie rangers and questee rangers have to gather and train. We have to consider this, when we discuss the thought of opening up Ardeep, and giving the shrines potential access to PKill or raze-happy players, that we also open up the possibilities of level 10 warriors being exposed to these situations. The balance, as Andreas mentioned in another thread, between realism, and making sure the game is fun.

That said, we could simply make it that those who wanted more secure RP to reside INSIDE the shrines, instead of treating the entrance to Ardeep as the forest dwellers Market Square. Let's just make sure we have the razing safeguards in place, and a justice system in place before we make the entrance as simple as killing the sentry.

Caelnai · Post by **Caelnai** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 11:27 pm

Kregor wrote:That said, we could simply make it that those who wanted more secure RP to reside INSIDE the shrines, instead of treating the entrance to Ardeep as the forest dwellers Market Square.

Hmm...is it bad that PCs "hang out at the entrance"? I do at times, usually OOC hoping someone will swing by that I can RP with, and not necessarily "good" RP. Most of the interaction I've had with evils have been on that very spot.

It's my observation that "locals" do withdraw inside the protected areas when having private conversations...so I guess I'm not seeing how Kregor's suggestion is any different than what already exists. But then again, I've had a lot of flu medicine today.

Perhaps I am also confused as to how much of the forest is really blocked off. In my mind it's not much; only areas that have shops and are obviously settlements or shrines. I know of non-foresty types entering the interior and all the rest of Ardeep...so all that is open, right? In fact, I've seen good roleplay with evils being caught razing the rest of the forest. I don't think it's a stretch to imagine the forest-wise being able to carve off some hidden area for themselves that wasn't easily accessible or noticeable to outsiders.

...and if there were some more dedicated "evil" areas in there too, all the better.

*volunteers to build*

EDIT - for spelling

Rennick · Post by **Rennick** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 1:21 am

I just thought I'd say that I'd personally be interested in that post about Ardeep's history that Caelnai mentioned. I was never a table-top player so I am always grasping at chances to learn anything new about FR.

Ninde · Post by **Ninde** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 3:34 pm

I agree with Kregor over that point there. Ardeep is a sensitive area already, and when the preventings will be removed, I can see attacks toward Feywarden or NPC rangers in Ardeep got attacked every day. ICly, there would be a guarding system, instead of preventing echo, like, "Elven rangers prevents you to going further"
But I believe as the IC reasons of how Ardeep is used, I believe there must be a warding toward some people does not need to be there.
Also, I would like to ask if Ardeep is restricted area still here. Walking into some place, just because you can code wise, does not mean a proper roleplay, I believe. Ardeep is an elven forest in the game right now, and there are hundreds of elves roaming into depths of Ardeep. I find a bit weird that some PC who holds drow or demon can walk to Ardeep, like nothing would happen to him/her.
It's like the orc camp to me. Code-wise, you can enter there, even your character is an elf. But, ICly, it would be extremely weird and foolish to walk in there, as there are hundreds of orcs dwelling inside the camp.
Thank you.

Telk · Post by **Telk** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:56 am

Before we go restricting some other areas of the Forest I think that we need to look at it from an IC point, I personally find it very silly that anyone would be able to instantly tell 'Hey, you're evil' or 'Hey, you're good' or that one means harm etc. which goes to the idea of making harsh IC consequences for goods that go into evil temples, vice versa, I hardly think that's IC because the guards wouldn't instantly know your align, etc. people sneak into areas, and cities ALL the time (talking ICly here). Something like Ardeep having a guard stopping you I can understand, because it would be fairly easy to see if they're welcome or not, but to have a public temple, or a city blocked off isn't very conducive to good RP. I'd definitely like to see more IC approaches going to areas that are warded more OOC than IC. I can definitely see a thief sneaking into a compound, assassinating a guard, etc. But then again, I'd like to see it not so easy as getting ye old wizard to cast invis and then you have access to it as simple as that.

Kelemvor · Post by **Kelemvor** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:04 pm

I've often pondered the fact that the equally true counterpoint to the statement 'Just because the code lets you doesnt make it ICly correct' might well be 'Just because the code prevents you doesnt make it ICly incorrect'

My own opinion is that were we to remove obstacles to players entering all areas (not just obvious ones as in this disucssion of Ardeep) we would be left with two possible outcomes...

For every well-played evil, casual visitor or curious explorer there would be a power-gaming, equipment craving area razer. Whilst the first would be more than welcome and it's a shame they are prevented from accessing the area. The second, well... you know them better than me I bet. They're the horrible little so and so who's only role in life seems to be to do things that get areas closed or convince folk it's not worth building an area to only see it abused

The other outcome... a disproportionate investment in making mobs and places behave in just the way we expect so that it's clearly IC for someone to be prevented access.

In my mind I'd rather put up with the code being ICly bent a little to allow the slender resources we have be beter used to improve the game as a whole.

I've not yet come across something clumsy in the code that I couldn't pass off ICly if I tried hard enough.

How did that guard know you're an evil SOB... he just had know alignment cast on him... maybe he has an artifact of his deity in his pocjet that burns his leg in the presence of evil... perhaps there's a hidden portal you just passed through that x-rays your soul.

Some days, asking for more IC is like asking for the Stars when you should just be happy with the moon. Squint a little, it's just as pretty

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 3:21 pm

Yes, the "evil" detector is not IC, strictly speaking. But you have to consider what it stands for.

It stands for
- recognizing holy symbols of evil deities
- recognizing symbols on clothes (e.g., Zhentarim, Ebon spires, ...)
- reputation ("Hey, I know you... you're the evil fighter of X I have been told about").
- warning from allied PCs ("Ah. You won't trick me. I know what you did in Ardeep. The Warden spread a description of you so we can recognize you.")
- ...

And this is not done only on one side... guards in Zhentil Keep also auto-magically identify priests of good deities and attack them on sight.

Lathander · Post by **Lathander** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 7:19 pm

There are also the racial enemies. Elves in the orc camp? Orcs and half-drow in Ardeep?

Telk · Post by **Telk** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:55 pm

While all those points are true Mask, a lot of times if someone was going to sneak into an area they'd hide all identifying information that may give themselves away. And Kelemvor, speaking about magical artifacts and stuff, I see how that can be true, but every commoner soldier that is hired is not going to have uber-rare artifacts, or know spells to cast. They're just going to have to take things at face value. There's an instance in an FR novel of a Harper walking into Zhentil Keep because the guards could not tell that she was a harper.

Isolrem · Post by **Isolrem** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:46 pm

Perhaps it can be assumed that the guards stop those trying to enter and question them, requiring them to show some form of identification. It can be said that most adventurers probably have some way of identifying themselves to friendly establishments through a badge or something like that

Also, keeping in mind who usually keeps watch at entrances, often it is knights, paladins, and rangers, as in the case of Ardeep and temples, if it is a soldier then it must be the most experienced and elite of the troops. So it is entirely likely they have such magical artifacts. Potions of detect evil/know alignment should also not be hard to come by if the establishment will fund for it.

Rhytania · Post by **Rhytania** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:50 pm

Even if you get past the guards what would be the point? You would get sniffed out in shortly there after as someone would pick up on you. especially in temples.

Brar · Post by **Brar** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:03 am

Telk wrote:While all those points are true Mask, a lot of times if someone was going to sneak into an area they'd hide all identifying information that may give themselves away. And Kelemvor, speaking about magical artifacts and stuff, I see how that can be true, but every commoner soldier that is hired is not going to have uber-rare artifacts, or know spells to cast. They're just going to have to take things at face value. There's an instance in an FR novel of a Harper walking into Zhentil Keep because the guards could not tell that she was a harper.

Isn't what the skill disguise is about? if successful of course which you can never be sure.
Think that also you could imagine mages casting alarm spells based on alignment or whatever, would not be that hard to find with correct fund.