Spell/Skill Increase system

[Dalvyn]

an additional concern is that a PC can spend hundreds of hours to RP a trade, and see little advancement from it currently

I have to comment on that, because I disagree. Actually, I feel like saying that I disagree with what you mean, and that I agree with what you wrote. Don't get mad or on the defensive, and let me explain.

"I disagree with what you mean" (or at least how I interpret it). Using a command again and again and again and again on one's own is not roleplaying a trade in my opinion. That is just... kind of wasting one's time.

"I agree with what you say": actually roleplaying about the skills, that is, practicing it in front of other characters; or talking about it with other characters; or taking on an apprentice, or ... well, interacting. Well, all those things would automatically give you continuous training (and you could spend those skill points on that trade!). That's clearly more interesting and rewarding and beneficial to the mud as a whole than the first option. And... it ONLY requires one other character to be present, something that is not that hard... even if you are not a Market Square-dweller. That means that ONLY those who would never ever interact with anyone would not benefit from continual training. Sounds fair, no?

I want to make a short diversion here. There seems to be a commonly accepted idea that "Because I spent time on this (trade/skill/spell), I deserve to be better." Now... where does that come from? Obviously, there is some real life base to it: Practice makes perfect. Right... but mindless and useless (i.e., for no special reason) practice is boring in real life. So, why does that part of real makes its way into gaming world, while other parts (need to sleep, need to pee from time to time, need to eat varied kinds of food, and so on) do not?

I would guess that the answer is... fun. Or is it? Sure... it would not be fun to have to stare to a black screen for 4 hours while the character sleep. Or to have to go to the small adventurer's room every now and then in the middle of a roleplay or while exploring a dungeon. What about practice? Is that really fun? Is that fun to type "mine" again and again for hours on? Fireballing giants sure is fun... the first ten times. And then? Does it not get just boring?

I would try to offer another answer. Trades come mostly from MMORPG. And, in most MMORPG, you have to keep your players online, and busy, because... they pay. So, you include things that are boring, long - the longer the better -, with a promise for some special skill at the end. "Forge junk armour for 500 hours (and pay for your online time) and you will be able to create mithril armour! Yay!"

This kind of things has slowly made its way into players' minds... and now, most of them think that "because they spent time on something, they deserve the special thing/skill". And it is only a small step to go from there to "If you don't spend 500 hours mindlessly making junk armour, you do not deserve to have higher skills."

I'd like people to take a step backwards and consider "Should mindless training really be necessary, or rewarded much?" Shouldn't we rather send the message that "If you want to progress, go make something useful for the mud as a whole - interact and make the whole place more fun/interesting for more people!"?

That line of thought convinces me that mindless training shouldn't be encouraged. Because... let's face it... that's just mind-numbing and there is nothing worthy of a reward in there... (Yet, I admit there are times when you just cannot interact at all - though those would be very very rare imo, as long as you seek to interact - and mindless training should be kept for those times, but should certainly not be a favourized option).

P.S. Yes, it's a discussion. My quote above was to single out the example from my generic rambling, nothing more. The text in the quote is how I read your post, and not far from anyone's actual statements. And I have no idea what a "straw man approach" is.

[Caelnai]

P.S. Yes, it's a discussion. My quote above was to single out the example from my generic rambling, nothing more. The text in the quote is how I read your post, and not far from anyone's actual statements. And I have no idea what a "straw man approach" is.

Straw man notes that by using fictional quotes, inherently your rebuttal is to points other than those actually being made. You have said that the RP awards are in ADDITION to coded ones, but then go on to make increasingly long arguments against coded increases in general.

Perhaps it is just a fundamental difference of opinion, but I think there should be a reward for people who spend real time RP-ing out IC actions and spending actual hours in the game. Otherwise, perhaps it would be better to go with a system of pre-loaded PCs supplied with skill points to be allocated. Without that, and only purely RP awards, I think you will always see justified complaints from PCs who are, through no fault of anyone, overlooked.

[Dalvyn]

Straw man notes that by using fictional quotes, inherently your rebuttal is to points other than those actually being made.

Which is not what I did. The text in the quote is an example that, to me, is equivalent to what you said. I gave it because I thought that extracting what I consider to be the main lines from your previous post and placing them into another situation, you might get another look on it.

Now, if you think that the example in my quote and what you posted before are different and cannot be considered as equivalent, then please explain what I mistunderstood in your post.

Never did I say that you or someone else posted the text in that quote. I just put it in a "quote" environement to make it stand out, nothing more. It thought that part at least was clear from my post.

You have said that the RP awards are in ADDITION to coded ones, but then go on to make increasingly long arguments against coded increases in general.

My increasingly long arguments are to show that coded increases should be secondary to (as in, less efficient, smaller than) continuous increases, not to entirely get rid of coded increases.

Perhaps it is just a fundamental difference of opinion, but I think there should be a reward for people who spend real time RP-ing out IC actions and spending actual hours in the game.

The fundamental difference of opinion might be here: Training a skill or a trade solo is not roleplaying to me.

Done in moderate quantities, and with an IC reason (e.g., an elf goes and kills the orcs in Shilmista; an armoursmith creates armour to equip his friends; ...), bashing mobs or practicing a trade is roleplaying. But when done repeatedly, again and again, for 100+ hours, it's not roleplaying anymore.

Killing the giants in Hartsvale is IC and roleplay for a ranger who hates giants, or for a knight of Hartsvale. Spending 5 hours in Hartsvale to kill them all, wait for repop, kill them all, wait for repop, kill them all, and so on... is not roleplay anymore.

This is not playing the role of a character anymore: it is skill training.

Otherwise, perhaps it would be better to go with a system of pre-loaded PCs supplied with skill points to be allocated.

Sorry, I don't get the relation between this and what is above.

Without that, and only purely RP awards, I think you will always see justified complaints from PCs who are, through no fault of anyone, overlooked.

It seems to me you missed the point B in my first post.

Point B basically means that you would contanstly/continuously gains skill points while interacting with someone. No need for a big group of person like in MS. No need for an imm to reward you. Skill points would automatically come to you, as long as you are online and interacting with at least one other PC. All it requires is ONE other PC and interaction. Interaction of any form... they could be chatting, they could be training one another, they could be adventuring or exploring together, they could even be just training together.

[Tortus]

I just want to display my thoughts about a certain bit here. Lemme try this qoute thing...

2 - Not enough high level mobs. I do not really agree with this. There are several high level mob training areas. Of course, they might not work well for soloing but... is this avoidable? Think of it this way: what makes a mob high level? He's though to hit, or he hits more and makes more damage, or he's highly resistant to some things. Some will toast solo fighters, others will toast solo wizards, others will toast solo priests, and others will toast solo rogues. So, yes, you can't kill them solo... that's what high level mobs are about: they need combined skills to take. Think deeper level of Undermountain. Think School of Wonder. If those are not high level enough, I'm not sure what is.

Ah, there we go.

Now, I might be (and probably is) the only one who feels this way about it, but to me training is kinda like going to the bathroom.
You just gotta do it sometimes, and when you do, you'd rather be you know, by yourself... To focus on the task at hand, or whatever.

Point is, I think training and/or farming coin sucks, but I have to do it every now and then, and when I do I want to get it over with as quickly as possible so I can get back in the game again.

Hm. I think this became a post about how awkward I think this sort of RP is, but hopefully a point came across.

[Glim]

Or to have to go to the small adventurer's room every now and then in the middle of a roleplay or while exploring a dungeon.

*giggles*

Well, it might not be fun, but itd sure provide some good comic relief.

We are about the fight the mad wizard Halaster! Prepare yourself men!
*one fighter holds up his hand*
I have a problem, sir!
What is it?
Um... *mutters something quietly*
What was that? Speak up, man! This is the most important battle of the dungeon!
Well, sir... the truth is... I gotta pee!

hehehehe

Edit: Sorry for the double post. Was my intention to seperate the peanut gallery in my head from the main debate.

Thanks,

[Glim]

The fundamental difference of opinion might be here: Training a skill or a trade solo is not roleplaying to me.

Done in moderate quantities, and with an IC reason (e.g., an elf goes and kills the orcs in Shilmista; an armoursmith creates armour to equip his friends; ...), bashing mobs or practicing a trade is roleplaying. But when done repeatedly, again and again, for 100+ hours, it's not roleplaying anymore.

Killing the giants in Hartsvale is IC and roleplay for a ranger who hates giants, or for a knight of Hartsvale. Spending 5 hours in Hartsvale to kill them all, wait for repop, kill them all, wait for repop, kill them all, and so on... is not roleplay anymore.

This is not playing the role of a character anymore: it is skill training.

Ah, there we go.

Now, I might be (and probably is) the only one who feels this way about it, but to me training is kinda like going to the bathroom.
You just gotta do it sometimes, and when you do, you'd rather be you know, by yourself... To focus on the task at hand, or whatever.

Point is, I think training and/or farming coin sucks, but I have to do it every now and then, and when I do I want to get it over with as quickly as possible so I can get back in the game again.

Hm. I think this became a post about how awkward I think this sort of RP is, but hopefully a point came across.

Put these two quotes together and it is a very good picture of training.

Training while roleplaying is hardly fun: fighting spams the screen, people are more focused on typing commands than focusing on smotes. That is why we have killmode spar, so that you can roleplay in between attacks. Have you ever seen someone try and roleplay in between attacks in a killmode kill pk? Never. It doesnt work. Now, you can roleplay in between combat, in between fighting mobs, but when you are focusing on roleplay, a hostile mob coming into the room and you automatically attacking it is not a welcome thing, it is a nuisance in fact.

Training is something that is more of a hassle if you try and roleplay, bringing others along with you make it less effecient and make the time you must do it to receive any gain longer, as well as training taking a long time in and of itself. This is almost a paradox, because it is not considered good to train for hours and hours at a time, and yet, thats what you HAVE to do if you want any coded gains for your character.

So yes, you can group and take on higher level mobiles, but honestly, more people only get in the way and make things less efficient.

This is, in a way, why I think we NEED such a system as has been proposed here and in other posts. I agree, training is NOT roleplaying. It is something that is difficult at times, tedious, frustrating, and boring. People get in trouble or are looked down on for training for a long time, but why? Because they want to advance their character and they are doing it the only way the mud has allowed? They do it for long periods of time because that is what it takes. Its not what it SHOULD take.

That is why I disagree with making something that is already frowned upon for doing for long periods of time take even LONGER. This is not really disagreeing with the current system, but things that have been done to the old one.

Looking over many posts, over all the years (this subject really has been going on for a long time, and I dont think just on this mud), why are people protesting?
Because they have trained for long periods of time, they have advanced their character, and they dont want to see someone come along with better skills than them who hasnt worked as hard for them as they have. Honest, blunt, truth.

So, this is my vote for such a system, if I could put in 5 million votes, I would. In my opinion, its a solution, not another problem, which is always for the best.

Feedback is always welcome,
Thanks,

[Balek]

Let me begin by saying that I have (at least) one character who is stronger than most. Why? Because I've spent an inordinate amount of time mindlessly killing mobs. I didn't really enjoy any of it, except when other people showed up and I got to talk to them a little bit when I was killing mobs. Usually they left, though, because it was more efficient for them to kill mobs on their own, and so I was once again solo killing.

Let me also say that I have three dwarven PCs and none of them regularly do anything involving trades. I would love have those trades for their roleplay value, but I just can't bring myself to type 'mine' over and over again for even ten minutes. People are usually bewildered when they find out I don't have any metal for them.

Essentially, I would love to have a skill advancement system based on roleplay. Roleplay is what I WANT to do when I'm playing. I would also like to go on quests and imm-run events and not have my characters be a deadweight in the party. It seems perfectly reasonable and in fact a near ideal situation to combine the two. In a game allegedly focused on quality and depth of character development and roleplay, shouldn't we reward those who have consistently high quality RP, instead of those who only 'roleplay' by killing things alone or tapping out trade commands in a dark alcove?

[Dalvyn]

... Its not what it SHOULD take.

Exactly. You bring this point perfectly across. The idea is to offer another way, so that people are not forced by the very system into doing unIC things.

That is why I disagree with making something that is already frowned upon for doing for long periods of time take even LONGER. This is not really disagreeing with the current system, but things that have been done to the old one.

Well, I would answer this with two points.

First, the slowing down (actually, not a slowing down but an additional condition so that you learn only when practicing on high enough level mob) was done as a reaction to something we saw. Level 50 fighters going into Howling Peaks or the Tombs of Tempus and shoving goblins and undead into the same room so they could train hitall again and again (back when it was bugged), or level 50 wizards training fireball by cleaning out low-level areas, waiting for repop, and doing the same again and again. From a technical point of view, those were the optimal behaviours: no risk of dying, quick, and gain coins as a side bonus. Training in such a way made no sense... what can a level 50 character learn from fighting baby goblins?

Second, let us assume that we agree on the following points:

- Continuous/Interaction rewards should be more efficient/faster than increase by training.

- The old progression rate is a nice once, where you improve quickly enough so that you feel that you are actually progressing, but slowly enough so that progressing remains a goal in the future, and not something you can achieve in 5 hours online.

Then, if we agree on both, a good idea would be to use the old progression rate for continuous/interaction rewards and keep the training increases as they currently are.

[Lerytha]

Just a question:

We are talking about skill points here. Does that mean skill levels, (ie, apprentice to grandmaster, etc)? Or does it mean a complete revamp of the whole system?

[Dalvyn]

Yes, that would mean skill levels, or portions of skill levels.

Currently, there is a hidden 25-level scale behind the skill levels. Those values are grouped by 3 and given a descriptive name.

For example, from 1 up to 3, you are "inept", ..., from 22 up to 24, you are "master", and at 25, you are grandmaster.

The skill points could be points to increase skill levels by one, or increase them by 0.1, or anything similar. It might even be a more complex system, where you would need 1 skill point to raise a skill from 1 to 2; then 2 skill points from 2 to 3; then ...; then 24 skill points to raise it from 24 to 25.

Anything is possible. The only constant is that skill points, once spent, would increase the skill level.

[Lerytha]

So we would gain skillpoints to manually spend ourselves, or would it just kinda increase as we went along?

[Dalvyn]

Skill points to spend as you want is the initial idea.

There might be some restriction, but you would have a choice.

[Zach]

The idea was brought up before and then a BAD april fools joke was placed on us... one that i was VERY excided to see... but then i realised when it was posted and got sad... *sigh*

But you would be able to spend them on what you want...

[Gregal]

Honestly I would love to have some way to boost up our skills or spells, Personally I have a lot of ways I would boots up some skills/spells, that I use ICly and is very important to my character, but he can't just icly get it as quick as he would through time. I do think that there needs to be another way to add up your skills/spells, for players that really want to focus on their players rp and the skills/spells that would benefit.

[Isolrem]

Just coming back to some summarising (because even I am surprised by how far the idea has branched out)

1. We did not like the original delay time idea because twinkers would simply go idle online to pass the time and continue to improve their skills

Solution1 : A credit system (I have contemplated this for some time). We used to rely on our kismet system to determine a player's RP credit, but since the introduction of the new char-gen kismet serves a much more practical purpose. Since kismet is earned just by being online it doesn't really prove anything. Perhaps a new account can start out with an RP credit value, which will have restrictions on many things, including a cap on skill level. Then imms can reward good roleplay, publications and even OOC things such as contributions to the game through area designing by increasing this credit. There is always a lot of controversy surrounding a new system so I will not dwell on it. If anyone wishes to see this expanded it can be taken to a new thread.

Solution2 : Continually checks for command input so twinkers can't just leave their characters to sit around while they do something else. This is not the optimal answer, seeing as despite the ban of bots, it would be hard to detect if it only needs to serve the purpose of inputing some command every once in awhile. Meanwhile players have legitimate reasons for giving no commands when listening to RP conversations, etc.

2. Players can be awarded skill advancements for roleplay as well as training. Unfortunately this seems to affect players who are not often involved in imm-run roleplay because of play-time and other reasons.

Solution1 : I know we already can submit logs of roleplay events, but there isn't any great emphasis put on it. It would be nice if players are encouraged to log their roleplays and send them in, to be reviewed by an imm who then hands out appropriate rewards.

3. Players who have less play-time seem to be at a general disadvantage.

Solution1 : Unfortunately this seems unavoidable for all games. However, maybe during off time a character can quit while training a certain skill, and he is assumed to be training while the player is not logged on (of course logging onto other characters cancels this). The advancement for this training would be very slow (and probably capped at a limit), but it will show results for players who are gone days or weeks at a time, so that when they log on again they may have improved in the skill by one skill level. (It also gives more credibility to such claims as "these last years I have been researching my spells in seclusion")

4. Players find it discouraging that at present it takes so long to show any improvement in skills.

Solution1 : Why not expand the current skill level system of 25 to 100? No game mechanics will be affected, but it will be both easier to measure advancement precisely and hearten players as they see their skill levels increase a lot more often.

Solution2 : Players can be allowed to specifically work on a skill that they want to increase. No other skills will advance. If it is a combat skill, the character's damage value is decreased. Other disadvantages apply to the player who is specializing in training the skill, which is allowed to advance faster.

The fame system : I have a habit of suggesting ideas that implies massive hard code changes, and they should only be addressed seriously if imms consent that it is even considerable. Here is another example : a character can develop a fame value, which will work in conjunction with speed of skill level advancement. The fame value will be determined partially by play hours, level, quest completion, number of people greeted, class, amount of time spent in groups, and etc. The idea is that if a person has a reputation if the Realms to be skillful or proficient at something, then it is likely to be true.

[Rhytania]

Im all for the skill points. There are characters out there that hate skill/exp grinding. If i can just forget all that crap and RP with other people and still gain skill points great. The counter is hey well my character is a master bladesman and yours just swings a sword well fine, your master bladesman can continue to grind and you’ll hit GM while I will be stuck at journeyman. So you have the reward for the grinders and the rpers still get to advance just not as fast. in dnd there are no skill levels per say as inept to grandmaster. Just skill points. If you want your char to be the best swordsman in the world well fine, but the rest of your skills and stuff are going to lack. I say give go ahead and let people hang themselves with the skill points. If people want to hang themselves by putting all their skills into weapons and find they have no other useful skills so be it.

Side note: Trades. Trades are a bit inflated. Coupled with the fact that they are are absolutely ridiculous to raise a level plus what do you do with the trade items? you cant sell them because the economies are broke 99 percent of the time. and unless your a dwarf and can do a one man show of mine smelt and craft all the other trades wind up costing you more in the long run. I say we should use a sliding scale for the trades. Making arrows should not be as hard to train as mining. But I guarantee fletching will break your bank faster than mining will. Plus when you mine you get a product that ca actually sell. Fletching sure you get arrows but there’s little to no economic value to them. I think the trades do need to get a second look and perhaps adjusted just a bit.

[Lerytha]

I'd just like to make one comment, here. It's something that has struck me for quite some time. But here goes:

Every single suggestion we make, is met by: oh my god... but the twinks will get really really really powerful.

Yes, probably. But the imms are not stupid. If they see someone growing powerful without any RP, etc, then they are able to tell. I have noticed that with every new, fresh, interesting idea, we begin crying, "Twink abuse! Twink abuse!", therefore removing ourselves from the benefits of new ideas, based solely on what a small minority might do, if they thought of it.

Why can't we embrace new ideas, without worrying about twinks, then, if there -is- a problem, work out ways to deal with it?

This is not based on anyone in particular, I am just worried that every good idea is brushed under the carpet because of our presuming that there are twinks under every carpet waiting to abuse the system.

There are probably 2 twinks to every 20 RPers. Why penalise 18 RPers, for the possible actions of 2 twinks?

~Ol

[Isolrem]

Hear, hear, Lerytha.
The only problem I have against skill point system is the obvious restriction it places on your character in a game where I prefer to think that you can have your character as anything as you want - including as powerful. It doesn't make sense to say that because a character is better at one thing, he must necessarily be worse in another. Also, despite Rhytania's claim that people will hang themselves by putting all their skill points in a few skills, the unfortunate truth is that it is actually more convenient in the majority of situations to do exactly that. Very rarely will a fighter need to use something besides his handy longsword, so why would he now bother to put any points in other weapons?
There is also a balancing problem for skill points - meaning that without RP awards, how many points would be fair for a specific character? Because of enviroment and difference in skills, this is not as simple as a seperate system for each class. There would have to be specific numbers for every guild and city. Perhaps game balance demands less skill points for Mithril Hall and more for Zhentil Keep, or less for Transmuters and more for Enchanters. This balancing act takes a lot of time and energy.

[Kregor]

The only problem I have against skill point system is the obvious restriction it places on your character in a game where I prefer to think that you can have your character as anything as you want - including as powerful. It doesn't make sense to say that because a character is better at one thing, he must necessarily be worse in another. Also, despite Rhytania's claim that people will hang themselves by putting all their skill points in a few skills, the unfortunate truth is that it is actually more convenient in the majority of situations to do exactly that. Very rarely will a fighter need to use something besides his handy longsword, so why would he now bother to put any points in other weapons?

Answer: Take that sword up against the Red Dragon in the dragon cave... see how often you hit it... you won't, or a properly coded skeleton, lich, etc... Creatures have resistances to different type of weapon types. So, diversifying your weapons helps.

Same with any skill, really, some skills you will excel in based on your character concept or RP, some you wouldn't. As it is, getting a skill to journeyman or apprentice is easy, and cheap, so it's not a big deal to fill out your skill/weapon/spell list with average or better performance.

I, personally would even be alright with having to start with my new char's skills lower, or have to pick and choose the skills that are important to me, if it meant I could have skill points every level/hour/good RP/etc. to excel in the skills that I really considered important to my particular character.

[Eltsac]

I'm not sure why some people don't aggree with Dalvyn's idea to increase skills...

I mean, we lose nothing, it's only a pure gain : he offers us the choice to raise our skills by training or by rping (be it IC rping raising it, or rping and considering we increase our skills while offline).

I clearly love the idea that i can switch the boring skill / spell / trade training and spend more time rping, as i'm on an rp mud. And if others like to make some training by themselve, nobody prevents them to do so... so what's the problem? jalousy because you train the hard boring way when some can train (maybe faster) without the boring way? then stop the boring train and come rp
simply with that system everyone would clearly be free to do whatever they want.
And if you are nearly alone online and can hardly find someone to rp with, with i agree can happen, then you can train the old lonely way, it will still works.

Don't know, i'm just not sure i understand the complains on that system