Money... is it a rich man's world?

[Dalvyn]

How skills increase is hard coded, and thus not something that I can modify. How money drops into the adventurers' pockets though, is mainly area-based.

I was recently surprised in a roleplay when a wizard said that well, they might need help with getting coins to buy components because they were completely broke.

Now, I also know that there are rich - very very rich - characters. Some of them are older characters who still have coins from the time back then when selling a glass of wine could grant you 115 platinum coins. Others are characters who raid areas (kill all, wait for repop, kill all, and so on). Are there other categories of rich people? If not, that would mean that all new characters who do not raid areas are poor.

Getting coins and loot is one part of the equation. The other part is actually being able to sell the loot. Economy is rather low (who knows, that might be IC after all?) and finding merchants rich enough to buy your loot can be hard and might require that you travel a lot. Add to that the fact that some understood how that works and just sell all they can immediately after a copyover/crash (when the mobs are still rich), without bothering that it will make it impossible for others to sell anything.

So... are there problems with money? What solution(s) do you suggest?

Did things like... Alb Terrington needs an escort, or Express Deliveries help?

[Glim]

(you all know I had to comment)

*Others are characters who raid areas (kill all, wait for repop, kill all, and so on).
*Getting coins and loot is one part of the equation.
*The other part is actually being able to sell the loot.
*Economy is rather low (who knows, that might be IC after all?) and finding merchants rich enough to buy your loot can be hard and might require that you travel a lot.
*Add to that the fact that some understood how that works and just sell all they can immediately after a copyover/crash (when the mobs are still rich), without bothering that it will make it impossible for others to sell anything.

Yes, I think there are problems, and you sum it up pretty well right there.

Certain areas give certain valuable items that you can sell for money, players go there after a copyover/crash, raid the area, sell the items to as many merchants as they can, moving from one economy to the next and sucking them dry. The items dont respawn again until another copyover/crash (not that they could be sold since the economies have been drained).

Components are also pretty pricey for most wizards (who are mostly broke hehe, I know most of mine are.)

Solutions?

Well... I dunno... just spouting off ideas...
-Increase economies.
-Make for more things to deposit coin back into the economies besides selling (healing, repairs, training, etc).
-Make mobs drop more gold
-Maybe make trade items worth more
-Allow more spells to be made into potions/scrolls so that mages/priests have more to sell? Make potions/scrolls sellable to mobs(I dont know if they are).
-Have an auction where players can actually put items up and keep the circulation of items and money continuous (instead of the players selling them to mobs and having them disappear on copyover or hoarding them)
-Lower the cost of components?

Hrm, I know I could think of some more eventually... those are just what ive thought of off the top of my head.

Feedback is always welcome,
Thanks,

[Enaria]

I thought The Express Deliveries was a great way to get started on money until the Ardeep RP, and now unless you are lucky enough to get two quests complete at that level before you get that one, so you can go on... You are stuck.

[Ceara]

Express deliveries is great if you're not evil. If you are you can't do it because you need to get places where evils can't enter. It would be nice if there was something similiar for evils that good aligned and neutral characters can't do (It's only fair) in Zhentil keep.

[Larethiel]

Express delivieries works just fine, it's a good way to earn some coin if you don't loose your cap like I did
As a new player I found it hard to get some coins without beeing smashed by some mob so I wandered the roads at night hopefully to meet some bandits I could slay and get their coins and the coin for their scalps, too in order to get the coin for some porpper armour and weapon But still I'm somewhat short of coin
Perhaps if there could be more things like the express deliveries? just one or two, I suppose

[Dalvyn]

-Increase economies.

That, at least, is planned... but some IC events need to take place first.

-Make for more things to deposit coin back into the economies besides selling (healing, repairs, training, etc).

Selling, healing, repairs, training, all that already adds to the area economy. Also, the economy slowly refills itself with time (ICly, mobs buy things too).

-Maybe make trade items worth more

What do you mean here? PC-made weapon and armour, and potions and scrolls?

-Allow more spells to be made into potions/scrolls so that mages/priests have more to sell? Make potions/scrolls sellable to mobs(I dont know if they are).

As per DnD rules, only spells of level 1-3 can be brewed. All spells can be scribed though.

Potions and scrolls are currently priced very high... and, if shopkeepers buying them were put back in (which might perhaps be a good idea for some aspect), the area economy would just be drained way more quickly.

-Have an auction where players can actually put items up and keep the circulation of items and money continuous (instead of the players selling them to mobs and having them disappear on copyover or hoarding them)

I'm not sure how that would help. Can you explain please?

-Lower the cost of components?

Are they that expensive? Some are - for a good reason (I'm thinking of Continual Light or Raise dead/Resurrection for example)? More input would be welcome. Isn't that cost relatively similar to that of repairing armour for other characters?

I thought The Express Deliveries was a great way to get started on money until the Ardeep RP, and now unless you are lucky enough to get two quests complete at that level before you get that one, so you can go on... You are stuck.

I can put Tamina in another spot while the roleplay is going on. Don't blame me for it though... Ardeep could have been freed a loooong time ago.

Express deliveries is great if you're not evil. If you are you can't do it because you need to get places where evils can't enter. It would be nice if there was something similiar for evils that good aligned and neutral characters can't do (It's only fair) in Zhentil keep.

Express Deliveries's main reason of existence is to help newbies in several ways. First, help them see how quests work, how to complete quests. Second, incite them to visit places around and get them to learn of the most important places and mobs. Third, inspire them to meet other PCs and ask for help (to find places and so on). And fourth, help them get money.

I am not sure that something similar would work well for evil. Besides, evil are supposed to already know how quests work, how to find places around, that allying with other PCs is necessary, and so on. But ideas are welcome.

Express delivieries works just fine, it's a good way to earn some coin if you don't loose your cap like I did

Feel free to send a mail to applications@forgottenkingdoms.com to describe what happened and ask if you could have a roleplay with one of the Express Deliveries boss to get a replacement cap. Code-wise, it's blocking you from completing the quests there. ICly, it shouldn't - they would react to your having lost your cap.

[Lerytha]

I think everyone appreciates the main difficulties faced by wizards, so I’m not gonna enter into that too much, except to give three major areas which explain why my wizard often finds herself in (quiet, because I don’t like to brag) abject poverty – at one point I entered the delusional state of hunger until I killed a kobold.

Anyway, the two areas:

- Sheer Volume of Spells: a wizard now has a lot, lot, lot of spells to learn. And each of these spells, costs at least 5 platinum to learn to a decent level, sometimes almost as much as 20, for the powerful ones. This is not a moan. I acknowledge that you should not be able to train a powerful spell to an average level without a lot of coin. But I am just identifying where wizard-coin goes.

- Potionbrewing Depreciation: an unforeseeable effect, of the new spell system, on the wizard economy. Now that we cannot persistify bulls strength, and brew it into a potion (quite right, as well), interest in our potions is not that high any longer. Thank Mielikki for those characters that do purchase some of the potions. This is where the largest part of my income comes from, but it comes perhaps once every RL month (a little rarer than that, sometimes), and then generally for three potions, at the most five (I remember almost leaping for joy when someone ordered 20 potions). It is very rare that anyone purchases potions from you, and when they do the money often slides into the sinkhole of components. One particular potion-loss which hit me very hard was the inability to brew words of recall. Now Dalvyn has explained it only works on level three spells or below, I can understand that better, though.

- Component Costs: once again, extremely ICly legitimate and I don’t think I would change many of the costs. However, for some of the spells (like Continual Light) the component cost is incredible. Maybe I am just not shopping around enough, but in a certain wizard’s “Gift” shop, it costs a certain incredible amount of platinum, almost… quadruple the price of a component for a raise dead spell. There are several imbalances, I think. I would place raising the dead at a higher cost than giving someone forever-lasting light. But either way. Even the components which only cost several silver make you go broke eventually, because you use it so fast. It costs a fighter nothing to swing a sword – it costs a wizard silver, every time he or she casts a decent combat spell. But again, all this is IC.

Three specific problems, I have encountered personally on the MUD, for wizards. And I think the main problem is components. In D&D, a wizard is assumed to have all the components required for a spell, except ones that cost a specific amount. On the MUD, wizards have to gather each individual piece of horse manure. I actually love that part of it, but it makes the balance between fighters/wizard (on a crude scale – I understand that priests also will have component difficulties – and ye gads, they have to buy armour, too. But I will leave priestly, rangerly, warriorly difficulties, to those with more experience in that field).

So, those are the problems for wizards. Just to help people appreciate the solutions, more. And these solutions have now moved on from being wizard-specific, to being everyone-specific. Money-finding can be a problem for everyone, who does not adventure regularly. Which is quite legitimate if you look at it, only unfortunately you cannot really have a job in the MUD which pays regularly, and well. Though I am about to suggest something like that…

Solutions:

Quests:

Express Deliveries helped an incredibly amount. As I did the quest, I was grateful, because for once it meant there was coin available for my character. So, I will now head to a textpad, and type out some quests that will enable more payment-for-services, quests, if that is what people would like, and if we are allowed to do that?

Jobs:

This might be controversial, in the extreme. But in D&D, you have professions, where you can gain money for practicing that profession. Maybe something like that could be incorporated? What do we already have: trades, and various quested positions like dungsweepers. These are fine: but not everyone can make a living out of trades, and eventually, it does not really become IC for your character to be sweeping the streets. Yes, ICly, you may not have money, but is your hero of a thousand encounters, whose name echoes through the Realms… going to pick up horse manure for a living?

Suggestion:

An area called a “Job Centre” (but something more ICly appropriate), where you can enter, and a mob will give you a job based on your class, and your stats. These would take the place of the following:

Scribe
Bodyguard
Household Cleric
Noble’s Teacher
Any other suggestions?

These would be RPed, but would essentially happen out-of-hours. In exchange for saying “Yes” to one of these jobs, you would then gain a certain amount of platinum every RL month. Say, five platinum? More? Less? Because I think at the moment, we are so caught up in having to roleplay every little thing, several things are suffering. I don’t think it is so unbelievable to have your character RP that they are teaching one insufferable noble brat a few times every month, and that they get paid by a grateful nobleman. Anyway, that’s that idea. I doubt it will get through, but I liked it: it’s not overpaid – five platinum a month would disappear like a chocolate bar in the desert; it’s not unrealistic – we have people RPing that they go to the far east during their off times, so why not something as mundane as scribing some of the bureaucratic nonsense that comes through the cities, etc.

Maybe it would stack, maybe not. I would foresee you returning to the “Job Centre” every month and saying, “I require my pay” and the Job Centre man would nod, “Yes. Here you are.” And you get given your monthly pay.

Publications as Legitimate Earnings:

I understand that I think one person is running publications. I am volunteering myself, for maybe helping out in that respect? I mean, it’s building, but not with the same level of complication as building an area with quests, etc. Mind you, I’m not sure exactly how it works, so it could be far more difficult. But anyway, I would very much like to add my time to publications@forgottenkingdoms.com so that some characters can see more of their work published, and gain some money that way. I know it is hard work, and that recently the publications backlog was cleared, but maybe if there were more people working on them, these could be a viable way to gain earnings? The only problem here, is that perhaps publications should be used more sparingly, than as a way to gain coin. I don’t know what the policy is one that.

Well, that's some ideas.

~Ol

[Dalvyn]

- Sheer Volume of Spells: ...

I am not sure whether this area should be considered as a major point or not in the money revamp. Of course, I agree that wizards need more coins to learn ALL their available spells/skills. But I see it as something quite positive. Wizards (virtually) ALWAYS have something to look forward to. Learning yet another spell.

I kind of oppose that to fighters who, once they have learned all their availble skills, they are basically done. Sure, they can train them up, even to GM... but well, they are done. Nothing new. Nothing as new as learning a new spell.

Sure, it's nice to know both fireball and lightning bolt... but you can learn only one, and leave the other for later. So, my point is ... yes, learning all the spells (for wizards or clerics or, to a lesser extent, bards, paladins, and rangers) does not have to be done immediately. You can take your time. But yes, I agree that it's very costly.

- Potionbrewing Depreciation: ...

It is my hope that, once the combat system is revised, metal armour should no longer be a synonym to "I'm immune to all damage." Unless I'm completely mistaken, once we move to a system closer to DnD, "lesser" armour (leather, chainmail) should be made more effective (because Dexterity will play an important role) while "higher" armour will be made less efficient. Since the AC system will also be revisited, a +3 or +4 bonus provided by even low level spells *will* matter a lot.

That might make available potions more useful, and more in demand.

If we also slow down healing and remove the option to just sit down and heal (or perhaps allow natural healing ONLY in specific places - inn rooms for example), then potions of protection, buffing potions, and healing potions, will all become more valuable.

- Component Costs: ...

Just a FYI here first... player cannot set prices in player-owned shops. The price is set by the mud, in part by the code, and in part in the area file. So... the component for Continual Light is the same for all shops (player owned or not).

The reasoning is that... raise dead/resurrection should be easier to access than something permanent, on a mud media. It's fun for nobody to lose a character permanently... so, raise dead/resurrection should be more or less easily available. The most important price for those spells should be set by the priest (perform a task for my god, and so on). Continual light, on the other hand, is like making a permanent magical object. Once you have it, you do not need light anymore, or infravision, or anything like that. It's a one-time cost for permanent advantage. Then again... this particular cost is theoretically not a problem for the wizard. Someone wants a permanent glow? Make them pay the component (and add a spellcasting fee). The wizard, on the other hand, can create balls of light whenever (s)he wants, at nearly no cost.

Express Deliveries helped an incredibly amount. As I did the quest, I was grateful, because for once it meant there was coin available for my character. So, I will now head to a textpad, and type out some quests that will enable more payment-for-services, quests, if that is what people would like, and if we are allowed to do that?

You are free to suggest ideas, not sure which ones will be coded though. I would think that Express Deliveries offer enough no-challenge quests (i.e., quests that just require you to take an object and bring it to someone). I would rather have other, more challenging quests. And fighting is not the only challenge... it could be puzzle solving, thinking, diplomacy, skill using, and so on.

Other ideas ...

No comment on those for now... I'll let other debate them first.

[Raona]

While I play only a single PC, a warrior, I have been struck at how expensive some spell components are. Perhaps alternative, IC ways of getting those components could help the situation somewhat? Mining of gems, soot being formed in torches and lanterns, a buyer's market for...er...body part components? Maybe some of these things are already in place, but I know that I've had trouble selling (or getting valuation of) many spell components. Instead, I give many of them away, but that too is often "spammy" and seems out of place, or at least low-priority, in RP, especially in times such as these. ("The situation in Ardeep is grave." "Aye, did ye read about events in the desert in the Brierfeet?" "Yep. By the by, would ye have any spare poo for my strength spell?") It's a struggle for my warrior to even know what serves as a spell component. She's thrown away a lot of "treasure" and held on to a lot of "junk."

As an RP-focused warrior, I do find myself slowly drawing down coin (giving it away, buying food, buying RP items like rope [which seems incongruously expensive - does it have a coded use or something?], cloaks [to put on cold or naked dead people], and maps [which I give away]) at an appreciable rate, and having to make time for a money-making journey of one sort or another from time to time. Precisely because of economy and "re-spawning" (I guess that's the term?) issues, these sometimes become waiting games. I do them alone, when few others are online. (Of late, I mostly pick up equipment left by the last hack-and-slash bandito who just took the most expensive light item on each mob, and left the rest to rot...so I guess I'm transitioning to a scavenger mode.)

So, in short, while recent changes have certainly helped (some paid positions such as the Watch, new ways to leverage necessary trips), I think that RP-focus folk still have to "make time to find coin" and that when RP gets crazy-busy, we draw down our bank accounts. (I know I've dropped my meager balance by more than half - spending it on raising others, helping mages buy components, and a continual light object that I ended up giving away the day after it was made. I had hoped to finally buy a bit of Tyrran garb, with the church stores now open to me, but there has not been time or coin to do so.) Twinks will always be short of coin, because they are constantly buffing their equipment...so I'm trying to think of an RP-based solution that's realistic. As pointed out in the topic on skill progression, standing around talking does not a master make, yet on an RP MUD, you want to encourage people to converse. So the best I can come up with is "RP-boosted goodies." Alas, they would require hard code: some kind of timer that notices when you are involved in RP [mostly talking (to others, not yourself)?] and, as it increases:
1) Slows your food and water consumption, for less hunger/thirst RP disruption
2) Increases the odds of soot being found in your lantern, you finding a platinum coin (or better still, accumulated kismet worth of gold coins) in the street, etc.
3) Decreases the prices you will pay in that city, as you learn of its merchants, mores, and mannerisms
4) Builds your skills, as you discuss how to repair armour yourself, what herbs do what, the geography of such-and-such a place
5) Increases the experience you get (a multiplier?)

I know that this suggestion is a bit of a reach, but it is the best idea I can come up with presently.

[Glim]

-Maybe make trade items worth more

What do you mean here? PC-made weapon and armour, and potions and scrolls?

Yes, sorry for not clarifying, havent had sleep yet.

-Have an auction where players can actually put items up and keep the circulation of items and money continuous (instead of the players selling them to mobs and having them disappear on copyover or hoarding them)

I'm not sure how that would help. Can you explain please?

Im not sure what I was thinking... perhaps just a better way for items that people are hording instead they could sell. They could sell items that are too expensive to sell in economies. Trade items could be sold.

Oh, and what I mean is, a mob that constantly sells or auctions off items that characters put up for sale/auction. Just incase that aspect was misunderstood.

-Lower the cost of components?

Are they that expensive? Some are - for a good reason (I'm thinking of Continual Light or Raise dead/Resurrection for example)? More input would be welcome. Isn't that cost relatively similar to that of repairing armour for other characters?

Yes, considering:

A. Fighters usually wear magical or high quality armor than almost never damages.
B. Fighters can gain coin easier (they can kill mobs over and over again, while their armor almost never damages).
C. Mages have to constantly replace components.

Express Deliveries's main reason of existence is to help newbies in several ways. First, help them see how quests work, how to complete quests. Second, incite them to visit places around and get them to learn of the most important places and mobs. Third, inspire them to meet other PCs and ask for help (to find places and so on). And fourth, help them get money.

Well good-aligned newbies arent the only ones short on cash, right?

Hmm, wasnt a long post on my part. Just was clarifying a few things.

Feedback is always welcome,
Thanks,

[Eltsac]

I'm one of the old rich characters as it seems i was sparing for something before taking my break.
Though i have noticed that learning some spells and the spells components have already drained my money a lot.
I don't know the spell components cost by heart, but i will check if i find some price could be reduce or not.

My idea would be to have more alternate ways to gather components :
- there is the simple gathering of the components, like taking feathers on birds, gathering manure... it's fun and useful for the ones you find easily whenever you want / wherever you are so you don't have to take tons of them.
One problem with that if some components can simply be taken on the ground, some just fill their pocket with it, and it's out of stock in all shops. As for monster drops, they are are fun as you gather them while adventuring, it's not much use to hunt to gather them as you would need to use components for the spells used in the hunt.

- the other idea (i prefer) is to make some trades that allow to make some components.
For exemple, a miner could mine rough gems, a jeweller could polish the gems, make gem powder, crystal bead, ... (others could be created?)
Maybe they could make them at a far lower cost than the shop, selling them to mages making a decent money for the trader and still the component being cheaper for the mage.
The advantage to craft components is mages always need them so you always have a good chance to sell what you craft (especially if shop prices are high)

I would find it fun to see more craftable component and less gatherable components. It would help traders and mages economy (of course the mage could learn the trades too, but if quite some different trades are involved and the raw components are found in different places, it might be difficult and time consuming to make all components by oneself).

The small issue i see is how to sell the components, as it's not always easy to carry around all crafted items, till you find someone to buy them.
As players shop might be removed, maybe Glim idea of an 'auction house' or a 'sell house' is good, where players can try to sell items, and other players can go check to buy items (for any crafted / brewed item, or even for monsters drop components some warrior could find and try to sell).
The PC could give the item away while he tries to sell it, as it would help not to have to carry around the crafted items, or it could be a system when the PC puts a note telling he wants to sell some item at some price and the buyer can contact him directly / by mail.
Or find another way to help the trades between players.

More than decreasing the cost of components, i like the idea to have alternate ways that helps interaction between characters.

Just my thought.

[Dalvyn]

I took a look at the components to see if more "recipes" could be added (i.e., fake "craft" operations that allow people to transform some items into something else). There already are several of them - e.g., soot, charcoal, bark, smooth stones, fine sand, salted meat, ... can already be created in some way or found while travelling.

I could only see two that might be added:

1/ Some "powder" program on the gems to create gem powder (crush will not work, since they already have a crush program, for another kind of components).

2/ Allow priests of some deities to "bless" smooth stones and turn them into starstones, sunstones, brightstones, earthstones, and moonstones. But I wonder if that's worth the effort... because not all faiths will get something out of it (some deities just do not relate to any of those things).

[Caelnai]

Express Deliveries and that sort of system helps greatly. I've actually been working on a few similar (and hopefully appropriate) to submit. I have a feeling that this is a part of a good solution, once enough systems can be coded.

Components isn't the only issue. The biggest cost that I find with all my PCs is keeping their equipment in repair. Not sure why one brawl with a single hobgoblin can take chainmail from new to crumbling, but it happens. I had hoped to keep my ranger self-sufficient as a tanner, but with so few trade skill betters (another thread...) she can't keep *herself* in armour, let alone sell any (nor is it worth anything if she could.) Other oddities exist as well; It takes twelve bowls of hearty stew to fill my fighter's belly. Guess she's just a greedy gut! She has the time though, as she can't afford to adventure with her armour in shreds. The only PC I have with any cash is that fool dwarf.

I think the ideal situation is to work with every system; quest areas, professions (like City Watch, dungsweepers,) and trades. A little tweaking the values of good bought and sold, and some more income-generating systems can work wonders. However, Dalvyn made a great point about watching the balance when tweaking one system at a time. Only bumping up potion value, for example, would bankrupt the economies, unless fighters also had the means to buy them all.

[Gregal]

Well I do have to say after reading everything I am suprised, I mean I agree that the only way to go out and get coins is to raid or start your own buisness. With Kaerie and Kristopher I was able to acquire a large sum of coins. Now I tried with Kaerie to host events and have rewards for PC's that....did not show out very well, I don't know if it was because it wasn't marketed enough or if I did it at times people couldn't be on. But I do think that we have to help each other. Now, As far as everything with getting coins, It is dang hard expensive to even raise your character. I mean from training spells to training skills to repairing armor. Sometimes I have been forced to go to mob killing areas and go on a killing spree just so I can have coin to train up my spells. I would like to see quests put in, but lets face it the Imms are busy with our RP's which is what I love, so that means we have to work together if it is writing up quests. (Don't be stingy and put them for only goodies, Us evils need some love too.) Or if it is us putting on IC events to circulate coinage, which I saw with the auction idea. I have noticed some hopefuls of Waukeen. I challenge you to run your own auction, organize it. get people to put in their items. and follow through with it. You will have a grand time and Waukeen will smile down on you for it. So in my final words we are all broke, but lets make something of it and help each other.

[Mariela]

From Dalvyn's 1st Post:
I was recently surprised in a roleplay when a wizard said that well, they might need help with getting coins to buy components because they were completely broke.

I am not surprised. Many people make their wizardry and raising a business in that of itself. I actually found that amusing. And being victim of a "Give us some money to raise our friend you worthless priestess or we'll kill you." I thought it was really clever. I mean, wether or not you have the money in the bank or not is irrelevant. It's the fact you CAN make money without having to adventure far and wide for it.

Now, I also know that there are rich - very very rich - characters. Some of them are older characters who still have coins from the time back then when selling a glass of wine could grant you 115 platinum coins.

It has been my experiance that if you RP with some older characters, they generally will share with you. Wether or not you have pleanty of money or not, if they think you need it, they give it to you. There is a sense of kindness to most (not all) of the older characters. I remember the first day Mariela was allowed out of the Temple of Ogdma. Her hero, Moranall was at the enterance and they had a conversation. At the end of it, he just gave her a hand full of platinum, to start out. It was really nice of him.

I also have had characters barter platinum to other alternates of mine to help me complete quests. I really don't think it's hard to get money from other PC's if you really need it. And the same thing goes with items, or help to complete quests. If you say you need help, generally with some RPing you can get it.

Getting coins and loot is one part of the equation. The other part is actually being able to sell the loot. Economy is rather low (who knows, that might be IC after all?) and finding merchants rich enough to buy your loot can be hard and might require that you travel a lot. Add to that the fact that some understood how that works and just sell all they can immediately after a copyover/crash (when the mobs are still rich), without bothering that it will make it impossible for others to sell anything.

I love the fact that sometimes you have to adventure out to sell some stuff. It helps the stores be less cluttered in the Deep with stuff that no one wants. I adore it. And it's a great game for me to wander around trying to find the vendors who will take stuff I do not want any longer. Or PC's to give it to. I love finding people in plain clothing when i have a sack filled with clothes to get rid of as Mariela. She just hands stuff out. I think it's a bit silly that some people wait and anticipate the crash. I really hope that something can be done to make the economy more random after a copyover/crash. It would be neat if it was stable for a moment, and then a God flips the switch and resets it to what it was, or to some other price scheme. It would prevent those who were being oppurtunists from pouncing!

So... are there problems with money? What solution(s) do you suggest?

I would adore more basic quests that give you some money that do not involve combat. It is quite challenging to come up with things to do as a character to gain money without going out and stalking some bandit. Or rolling the dummies in the temple for hours to have a safety net. (Which by the way, if you do that.. silly gooses! It doesnt' take much to get that 50 platinum or whatever you are saving up for if you just RP! be a broke adventurer for a moment! It's good for you!)

Did things like... Alb Terrington needs an escort, or Express Deliveries help?

I ADORE these quests. Not for the money they generate, that is just a bonus, but for the fact they are simple things that you can send new citizens of the Deep out on. (Especially in the case of Express Deliveries!) They are also a hoot for when you want to do a quest, but you don't want to have to find someone to help you out with. I would ADORE more of these type quests scattered throughout the realms. (I think someone said Zhentil Keep could use one, ect.) I think it would be really fun to have a character that basically has to stay in, for example, Calimport because they are working for a delivery service out of there for a few weeks, ect. Or someone who is running letters and things from Zassapur to Yuirwood back and forth, back and forth. Simple thing sthat do not neccisarily involve combat. That way, those characters that do not want to have combative lives, can do things that are not... combative.

Do the different guilds have quests within them like the Express Deliveries? Side things that maybe the merchants can do, or maybe mini missions like the deliveries that the Sweepers Guild can do? I dunno. I'm rambling. I love "mini" quests that are very short and too the point. Just stuff to do when your character wants to do SOMETHING but no neccisarily with other people.

That's just me.

[Mariela]

From Dalvyn's 1st Post:
I was recently surprised in a roleplay when a wizard said that well, they might need help with getting coins to buy components because they were completely broke.

I am not surprised. Many people make their wizardry and raising a business in that of itself. I actually found that amusing. And being victim of a "Give us some money to raise our friend you worthless priestess or we'll kill you." I thought it was really clever. I mean, wether or not you have the money in the bank or not is irrelevant. It's the fact you CAN make money without having to adventure far and wide for it.

Now, I also know that there are rich - very very rich - characters. Some of them are older characters who still have coins from the time back then when selling a glass of wine could grant you 115 platinum coins.

It has been my experiance that if you RP with some older characters, they generally will share with you. Wether or not you have pleanty of money or not, if they think you need it, they give it to you. There is a sense of kindness to most (not all) of the older characters. I remember the first day Mariela was allowed out of the Temple of Ogdma. Her hero, Moranall was at the enterance and they had a conversation. At the end of it, he just gave her a hand full of platinum, to start out. It was really nice of him.

I also have had characters barter platinum to other alternates of mine to help me complete quests. I really don't think it's hard to get money from other PC's if you really need it. And the same thing goes with items, or help to complete quests. If you say you need help, generally with some RPing you can get it.

Getting coins and loot is one part of the equation. The other part is actually being able to sell the loot. Economy is rather low (who knows, that might be IC after all?) and finding merchants rich enough to buy your loot can be hard and might require that you travel a lot. Add to that the fact that some understood how that works and just sell all they can immediately after a copyover/crash (when the mobs are still rich), without bothering that it will make it impossible for others to sell anything.

I love the fact that sometimes you have to adventure out to sell some stuff. It helps the stores be less cluttered in the Deep with stuff that no one wants. I adore it. And it's a great game for me to wander around trying to find the vendors who will take stuff I do not want any longer. Or PC's to give it to. I love finding people in plain clothing when i have a sack filled with clothes to get rid of as Mariela. She just hands stuff out. I think it's a bit silly that some people wait and anticipate the crash. I really hope that something can be done to make the economy more random after a copyover/crash. It would be neat if it was stable for a moment, and then a God flips the switch and resets it to what it was, or to some other price scheme. It would prevent those who were being oppurtunists from pouncing!

So... are there problems with money? What solution(s) do you suggest?

I would adore more basic quests that give you some money that do not involve combat. It is quite challenging to come up with things to do as a character to gain money without going out and stalking some bandit. Or rolling the dummies in the temple for hours to have a safety net. (Which by the way, if you do that.. silly gooses! It doesnt' take much to get that 50 platinum or whatever you are saving up for if you just RP! be a broke adventurer for a moment! It's good for you!)

Did things like... Alb Terrington needs an escort, or Express Deliveries help?

I ADORE these quests. Not for the money they generate, that is just a bonus, but for the fact they are simple things that you can send new citizens of the Deep out on. (Especially in the case of Express Deliveries!) They are also a hoot for when you want to do a quest, but you don't want to have to find someone to help you out with. I would ADORE more of these type quests scattered throughout the realms. (I think someone said Zhentil Keep could use one, ect.) I think it would be really fun to have a character that basically has to stay in, for example, Calimport because they are working for a delivery service out of there for a few weeks, ect. Or someone who is running letters and things from Zassapur to Yuirwood back and forth, back and forth. Simple thing sthat do not neccisarily involve combat. That way, those characters that do not want to have combative lives, can do things that are not... combative.

Do the different guilds have quests within them like the Express Deliveries? Side things that maybe the merchants can do, or maybe mini missions like the deliveries that the Sweepers Guild can do? I dunno. I'm rambling. I love "mini" quests that are very short and too the point. Just stuff to do when your character wants to do SOMETHING but no neccisarily with other people.

That's just me.

[Brar]

Well, as we made a new character, I found it far easier to make money than back when we left and everyone under level 40 was starving in the square.

Now, one trip to the sewer in Waterdeep gives you a few platinum (not sure if there is an evil equivalent), there is the express deliveries, and few other things like that.

Now, the main problem I see with selling loot is that the prices go down for every items after the first you sell to the same merchant, and except in WD and its ten thousands wandering merchants, it's nearly impossible to sell loot for acceptable money(except after a copyover/crash). But (for goodies at least) there is other way to make money, enough to survive, but not enough to be rich.

During the world tour we just made with Eltsac, I trained all my skills/spells and I still have the same money I had before we start. What I earned is almost the same as what I spent. But my mage friends did the same and it costs him a lot (something around 600 plats if I remember correctly) to make this world tour, while we were sharing the money. So just adventuring cost a lot more for wizards than for warriors. Plus, warriors can repair their weapon and armor for virtually free with trades, Wizard on the other hand pays a lot just for going on adventure.
With the spell component list I saw on Eltsac's desk for one dungeon, It costs around 100 plats while for my ranger it costs me something like 10 gold of arrows. and perhaps 10 plat in repair after the dungeon and only because I don't have my trades high enough.

All that to say that perhaps one way to do it could be to decrease the loot you can find, as most of the time it's left on the floor anyway, while raising a little the money you find on mobs.
Or something not ic at all but more balanced perhaps, just make a check on mob level against char level for money drops, the closer it is the more you have. (would refrain people level 50 to raid the howling peaks for money)

Just some ideas,
Brar

[Kirkus]

I have always been in favour of the little quests. Quests that in comparison to stuff like the Ardeep thing would sound boring. Stuff like gathering supplies for inns and restaurants. Every tavern, bar, inn, restuarant and ale house should have many quests. Quests from the owner to go get the this or thats. Quests from some patron to do something for them. These are the things that make a mud, in my opinion come to life. It no longer becomes let me go talk to this inanimate mob, all he is good for is selling my equipment to. Each mob then becomes an actual character who has a life of his or her own, and can pay us to do stuff. Thus we are making money, and stuff, like spell components.

Thats my solution, not enough money? More quests.
Not enough spell components? More quests.
Need something to do? More quests.
Sacking areas to get coin? More quests.

Heck! More areas! If you look in the campaign setting I think its like every geographical area has something to do that could rake in the coin. Hills overflowing with orc's and goblins. Mountains fill to the top with Giants. Every small town, and we need more small towns, should have a ' We are being attacked by orcs from the Trollbark Forest, We will pay you a gold for every ear you bring back as proof of killing the filthey orcs.

And those poor orcs in the Trollbark forest should have a camp where at least the orc and monster pc's should be able to go and the orcs will say 'We hate the humans of this or that small village or town, bring me ears. Me give you shinny gold coin.

Lots of stuff like that all over the world.

[Rhytania]

A couple of quick Ideas:

a) Have an option to sell something at a lower discounted price to a mob. There are plenty of times where I ve had something worth 10 plat but the mob only has 8 - 9 plat. If there was a prog to have the shopkeeper say "look its worth 10 plat but all I have is 8 plat will you sell?" more than likely I would say yes just to get some coin. If possible you can set it so mobs will always try and buy at a lower price requiring you to haggle ( a good way to get use out of that high charisma and haggle skill as well as pcs with the appraise skill?) with him to raise it.

b) A prog to perhaps autogenerate coins on shopkeeper mobs? Maybe when they fall below x amount of coin it triggers replensihing their coins. IC reason for this is that in the current econo-model only PCs are buying from mobs. In a realistic term, pcs dont even make 0.000001 percent of the population. Especially in the larger cities and those that are renown for caravan hubs, the mud does not take into account the other 99.999999 percent of the population that actually moves the goods. Wether it be from tradegoods to food to exotic weapons, someone will be buying and selling this stuff nonstop, and if the mobs do currently purchase from each other, they definitely arent doing enough of it.

c) A prog that simulates the mobs liquidating their assets. In the real world if you dont have product that moves you either have to find a way to flip it over or just liquidate it. Perhaps items that havent sold longer than x amount of days the prog will junk the item and replenish the shopkeeper half of the full amount of the item. this way those pc made armours that no one wants can still be bought and doesnt have to sit in the mobs inventory for 12 days until the thext copyover/reboot/crash.

d) create a barter system where pcs can collect items for the shopkeepers and trade it in in replacement for coin and use towards the purchase of goods. Ie Pc doesnt is 1 plat short of a new item1. Mob shopkeeper is a tailor and is always looking for wool or silk. Well the Shopkeeper will offer 1 plat for every bag of 50 silk or 25 peices of wool. The exact prices/worth can be banged out later but just for an example the PC can go collect this stuff and use towards a purchase or even exchange it for coin. This probably wont be beneficial until the the actual trade goods come into play, but the possibilities are endless, Food Items, Metals, Wood, Wool, Lumber, feathers, ect ect.


Couldnt help but to remember this comic when reading this post:
http://www.thenoobcomic.com/daily/strip017.html

[Japcil]

How about characters with a coin below a certain amount say 50 plat gain interest on the coin they have in the bank account. This is open for abuse however, many characters would just remove coin from their account in order to get interest. Perhaps a check to see the amount of coin on the character as well could be added to the program?