Money... is it a rich man's world?

[Dugald]

I didn't read most of these, because I'm in a bit of a rush - but I think this would work wonderfully.

There are /tons/ of mobs who drop valuable items that are never worn, and always sold. If there is a way to make coin drop (less than what the item would have sold for, say 80% of selling price) in placement of the item - and then maybe force the item to be dropped once out of 50 kills.

That would immediately give coin instead of something that is exactly the same as coin but forces a player to have to ninja jump merchants like some ebay enthusiast to get what the item is worth and thus force other pc's, just trying to make their coin, to go to another merchant or give up even trying.

Some common mobs, as of two weeks ago, still dropped things worth 35 platinum. Obviously that is too much for a non dragon/king to drop - so lower the coin amount.

Or, make a easily findable merchant who has an unlimited amount of coin (whatever you can max it at) and let him buy anything that sells under 5 platinum.
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My general feeling is, which can certainly be changed if an admin/imm says "not here buddy", is that the FK is still DnD. A major theme of dnd is the motivation for why one chooses to adventure - which the common answers are "Adventure! Power! Coin!".

And it isn't like there are other alternatives in character - it's no secret, adventurers (the highest paying profession in all of faerun) make their platinum killing things and taking their stuff. Adventurers are /suppose/ to be way richer than normal citizens, and by the time they reach high levels they rival nobility on wealth (unless, of course, your character doesn't care for coin).

The only thing throttling down coin drops and having a coded "economy" does, is make it very hard for casual players to get coin...and then it makes the more regular player have to go out of their way for longer periods of time to come close to making what they use to....or, come up with little ooc tricks to making that coin quicker so they can get back to interacting with other characters.

There just recently became a reason to have more than 1000 platinum. And that's a one time buy. Before that, all your equipment would be renames/quested/or lasting purchase that you won't replace...spending your coin on repairs. In my experience, the greatest benefit to having a lot of platinum, has been using that platinum to create extended roleplaying situations with other characters who actually /needed/ to have coin. But the character turn around on FK is very high, to say the least, and I know many older/high leveled characters help out low level adventurers often, but, it becomes harder and harder to when you start realizing that where you made your coin from (something only a 45+ character could have done) is now completely gone (when you use to be able to help out 10 new characters from an hour of coin gathering)...then you start acting a little more prudent - and these new characters are forced to turn to power leveling in low risk areas to get to a level where they can make any coin at all.

It's a bad cycle.

[Balek]

I've actually started several posts about this sort of thing in the past. Here they are:

RP Ways to Earn Money
http://www.forgottenkingdoms.com/board/ ... php?t=4856

Brainstorming some competitions and events that can be held to earn money for PCs.


Improving Game Economy
http://www.forgottenkingdoms.com/board/ ... php?t=4132

Potential ways to create more actual flow of money instead of current hoarding-type activities in high-level PCs.


My Intercity Trade Proposal
http://www.forgottenkingdoms.com/board/ ... php?t=3839

Proposal to code numerous quests of varying difficulty to provide pay for PCs, boost coded area economy, and provide interesting semi-guided PvP roleplay.

[Theillik]

I've been building an area to place within ten rooms of Waterdeep, which is designed for a "middle level" character to earn money and experience. Something similar to the Peak.

[Telk]

The idea of armour mattering less was brought up, which would make potions more readily buyable, and I think this is good but could end easily in a circle. As it is now, a potion will probably cost no less than 5 plat, which is quite a bit, especially if it only lasts a while, and since this thread is about making money, I think it'd leave the fighters bankrupt.

I'm sorry if this goes too far IC, and I don't mean to reveal IC information, but I've got a question I'm curious about. But why was the scribe and brew trainer in the game made to longer train these two? Is there any plans to make these attainable? Sorry if I'm stepping on any toes. It just seems odd to take them out when they can help wizards make money (even though opportunities may be scarce) it's still nice to be able to scribe and brew potions.

[Shabanna]

I am sure this will raise a brow ...LOL but I hurt my back a bit ago...and have had too much pain medicine to care

FIRST...IMHO there are MANY MANY helpful suggestions here, most of which, I could not hope to compete with. But I would like to add this.

Perhaps, if every Mob had some amount of coin (of course it should be appropriate to the particular person, creature etc.)that was dropped then PCs might not be sOOoo inclined to pick a particular area and hang out? I think a lot of the coin farming... that is done... is done because there are one or two areas that people KNOW they can get coin.

(just a side thought.... our Dragon has no hoarde why do we have a indigent dragon??? It takes a handful of characters to kill it... indeed this is one of the FEW things I ever see people make PARTIES to kill! people LOOOVe to get together in groups and kill it.... it could easily be meaner... and have a hoarde... of gems and coins which could be determined by the number of PCs that kill it... to be divided amoungst the band of brave souls willing to gather together!) Operative word: together.

simply put...I think if everything generated some amount of coin, then people would be more willing to move around and explore!

I also agree with Dalvyn about the healing situation... if people did not heal by sitting on their bums and waiting... fighters might be more inclined to ask a healer or two to come along and they would not gripe so much about the wait time to meditate etc.

side note: I actually saw a fellow with a mangled abdomen...just recently and ICLy asked if he needed to see a healer( because I was going to pay for him to be healed) and he said no he was fine!!!! o.O Well of course he SEEMED fine, he had sat and "healed" cause his HPs said he was better BLEH!!!! I mean not a few bruises here...we all have had some of those we forgot about. But... You can literally lose a limb and sit and heal to "full"( just armless) Meh... I say...make it HURT... until its healed!!!!! and then healers will be USEFUL as will the potions they brew and people will PAY for them.

and on a final note ... just my 2 cents here...

I have a level 50 char... who cant do anything for coin.. pretty much... cause she is preggo. I can not go kill things, steal, or even sneak around hoarding dropped items to blow the economy ( as Glim so aptly described ) because I stand the chance of being harmed and think that is a poor RP for a pregnant character But I have learned ALLLL the areas you can get food for free. and I wanna huggle the imms for coding in the fresh food to *pluck* If your character is starving... take a hike He hehe you might just find a bush filled with berries or kiwis or an apple tree. *yumm*

Pleae forgive my stream-of-conscious posting...it all made sense to me in my very lubed-up state of mind. If it does not make sense tomorrow I promise I will edit it! lol


"The Banna"

[Dalvyn]

(just a side thought.... our Dragon has no hoarde why do we have a indigent dragon??? It takes a handful of characters to kill it... indeed this is one of the FEW things I ever see people make PARTIES to kill! people LOOOVe to get together in groups and kill it.... it could easily be meaner... and have a hoarde... of gems and coins which could be determined by the number of PCs that kill it... to be divided amoungst the band of brave souls willing to gather together!) Operative word: together.

If the dragons were only fight-able in a group, I'd be more than happy to give them a very nice hoard. Yet, I have seen people go and fight them alone. And win. And boast about it. If those dragons were given a big hoard, I can readily see those people just hanging in that area, waiting for a repop, or visiting the same dragon every week.

That is once again the same problem. Perhaps I should make the initial question more precise. It's not really "How to make people richer?" but rather "How to make people who currently do not have coins richer?" Some are rich now, most likely because they found an area with mobs that dropped an incredible amount of coins (e.g., some level 10 mobs in the Frozen Wastes used to drop a handful of platinum). They are not those who need to be cared about here... I'm more concerned about those who currently do not have enough coins to "exist" on the mud.

[Lerytha]

Grants

In Britain, "poor" people get grants from the government to go to university with. Just a bit of money to help them out. What about some form of organisation which gives money to those who need it, run by the imms? Or administered by the imms? Or run by players, but with platinum given in large amounts to that organisation by imms?

Waterdhavian Adventurer's Strongbox Help (WASH)

Lord Piergeiron has decided to set up a charity, within Waterdeep. The city will provide funds of platinum, which will be administered by chosen adventurers, to the most needy of warriors. In exchange, these adventurers aided through grants by the city of Waterdeep will swear a solemn vow not to harm the city, and will be beholden to answer the call for aid made by any citizen of the city, and obey the commands of any figure in authority, therein.

Forest's Adventuring Retainer (FAR)

The Council of Rangers, aided in gaining funds through tolls, farm produce and other such trades in which is holds a monopoly, has decided to set up a charity, to enable young forest-allies (druids, rangers and a few other forest-faiths) to help the forest more easily, by enabling them to repair armours, gain new blades, practice skills that are neccessary. In exchange, the recipient must be solely loyal to the Council, and must take on an area of responsibility, to protect and live up to the forest faiths.

Apprentice Retainer for Teaching (ART)

The Churches of Mystra and Azuth have set up a fund for wizards who wish to take on young apprentices. Wizards who speak with a member of ART, can qualify for a grant of platinum required for feeding, teaching and keeping an apprentice. In exchange, the wizard must offer regular lessons, adhere to apprentice health-and-safety law, and must act responsibly when using the Weave.

Zhentil's Industry Trust (ZIT)

Zhentil Keep does not like losing in wars, and matters of adventuring, to Waterdeep. Gods, no. So, in order to encourage more adventurers to come to Zhentil Keep and to serve the dark lords of the Zhentarim, even indirectly, the high figures of the organisation have decided to offer a sum of platinum, similar to the WASH fund of Waterdeep. In exchange for charity, the recipient swears to aid any citizen of Zhentil Keep, and to obey the commands of a Zhentarim or Cyricist soldier.

Mechanics

Anyway, enough of the ideas for the grants: how would they work? Well, I see an imm providing each of the above (and other) organisations, with gold/platinum. They would provide it to one person, who would then (with others), be ready to give aid to those who need it. IC requirements are there, so it is not just a free handout. The impoverished adventurer must decide if they want to adhere to the stipulations for a grant.

It doesn't need that much imm work. Basically, it involves giving a once-monthly (IRL) deposit to the casual volunteers for each "organisation", (maybe 500 platinum). Those volunteers would then give it to those who speak with them, explain their urgent need, and have it approved.

Maybe limit as well, so that you have to wait at least two months IRL before claiming another grant.

This enables money to be given to those who really need it.

[Eltsac]

I don't know the situation exactly. what level tend to be the poor characters?

if they are lower level ones who fight their way to try to buy a decent armor to go further adventuring and food to survive : things like the deliveries are so great to me. it allows to make money even if you don't have a decent armor for fight. It would be great if there could be such simple repeatable quests in all starting area so the character don't have to move to a big city if he wants to make money

if they are high level that simply don't want to make some money bashing alone because they don't like it, who only gather money when they really need some. Well the deliveries are still good, also improving the way to make money with trades would help.

An idea would be to have short middle / high level repeatable quest for money that could only be done in group, or maybe make that dragons and such group monster drops nearly nothing but loot increases a lot with the more people around (limiting it for exemple to 5 PC), and limiting it so you will only have a big loot from the creature once a day or such.
It could make people group for a big fun fight instead of solo bashing, and could include the players that hate the solo money gathering.

Eltsac

[Kregor]

If the dragons were only fight-able in a group, I'd be more than happy to give them a very nice hoard. Yet, I have seen people go and fight them alone. And win. And boast about it. If those dragons were given a big hoard, I can readily see those people just hanging in that area, waiting for a repop, or visiting the same dragon every week.

Easy solution for this. Much like a group quest I wrote, where the size of the drop on certain mobs and the strength of the opponent depends on the size of the party.

A death prog on the dragon, such that it looks at the group size, and depending on that generates X number of goodies (coin, gems, jewels, maybe even a small chance for a piece of equipment) So that when the dragon dies, the hoard beneath him reflects it. If it's a large group, then the reward will be sizeable, if someone tries to solo it, then, it's a very young dragon, with not much valuable to speak of. Again, group-based rewards, in my theory, will lead to group-based partying.

Other thoughts to make it more difficult to just saunter in to meet the dragon could be:

1) a greet_prog on him, so that if a single adventurer comes in, he just says "You're not worth my time" waves his hand and sends said adventurer back out of the cave. Such a treatment would also be beneficial by avoiding the common newbie-wondering-into-the-dragon-cave situation.

2) greet_progs could pump the dragon up in strength depending on the group size, or better, let's say the dragon is female, and for every X number of players over N number, there is a hatchling dragon that fights also.

3) Also, we could rework the race file a little to make the dragons cast. It should be able to, per D&D, as well as it's breath weapon. A better challenge for the hoard.

[Zach]

I don't know the situation exactly. what level tend to be the poor characters?

it ranges from around 13 tooo.. hmmm... 50...

I have a level 50 char who is POOR!... don't play her much (anymore)
I have a level 48 char who has 15 platinum to her name (and i'm about to log on and spend it)


The poor range can be anyone who doesn't know the "sweet spots" of the game... but is that right? Not in my book

[Dalvyn]

The poor range can be anyone who doesn't know the "sweet spots" of the game... but is that right? Not in my book

EXACTLY! There shouldn't be any major advantage to be "in the know". There shouldn't be any special spots to get a lot of money easily (more easily than in other spots), that people who know about keep a secret.

[Dugald]

I think it's entirely less to do with "sweet spots" and more to do with not wanting to put the time into trying to make platinum...because, obviously, it's not as fun as PC interaction.

If you know where there are mobs who drop items, pretty much any items, you can make plenty of platinum. You just have to be willing to dink around trying to find merchants to buy your stuff, which can become a problem which most find too frustrating to continue trying to do.

Even if people knew the "sweet spots", which most already do and just don't realize how quickly it adds up, it takes a lot of player time to figure out how to get the items sold. That's what is actually the "in the know" part. The most valuable knowledge in FK is figuring out how to get your loot sold...which is kind of silly - and not something that can be explained IC to be passed on to others.

I think adding one mob merchant, with nearly infinite coin, in every city to buy items less than 5 platinum - would solve all the problems with low and high level characters not having coin. He can just buy and junk - IC wise selling the product over in Maztica or some crazy place. I don't see the problem with it.

You'd still have the characters with 2000 plus platinum, but if the goal is getting the less experienced characters to be able to have enough coin to not beg for coin in the market square - then this would do it.

[Jaenoic]

You'd still have the characters with 2000 plus platinum, but if the goal is getting the less experienced characters to be able to have enough coin to not beg for coin in the market square - then this would do it.

We can set up an FK version of the IRS, taking "taxes" from these rich people and redistributing it amongst the poorer folk.

[Lukon]

You mean the IRS gives money TO people? I thought they just took it...but yes, let's throw that in, just to watch the Waukeenar declare war.

[Telk]

I'd hate to have taxes. A lot of people go away on chars for a while, and if these people are taxed all of their stash will dwindle down. Plus, I don't see why people should be punished for working hard for their coin, while the people that don't want to make coin don't get taxed. Not to mention taxes would be typically for citizens living in the city, and most people on FK are adventurers and the game can't decide who should be taxed who shouldn't etc.

[Lerytha]

Before we get sidetracked by taxes, and perhaps by debates on social conscience vs independence... I think Jaenoic meant it as a joke. So... we could think of different things, rather than get hung up on "IRS" (whatever that is).

[Brar]

I think, first we should come with a definition of poor.
What is a poor character?
1: Someone poor enough that he can't buy food and rent a room at the inn?
2: Poor enough that he can't buy equipment/components?
3: Poor enough that he can't train?
4: Poor enough that he can't buy a dwelling?

What are the poor that we speak about?

[Glim]

1: Someone poor enough that he can't buy food and rent a room at the inn?
2: Poor enough that he can't buy equipment/components?
3: Poor enough that he can't train?
4: Poor enough that he can't buy a dwelling?

Hmm, I would say:

No
Yes
Yes
No


Respectively

Cant talk much because at work, but id like to say that I really think those grant ideas sound very interesting.

Thanks,

[Lerytha]

Hmm... my character struggles for money, but I would not say she is poor. There comes a point, when money -will- come to you. It just... happens.

I think, Brar, poor means everything in your list, except the dwelling.

But... I do think that we should actually be looking at not just POOR, but people without sustainable income. i.e, those who cannot go out and gain gold, every day. Or those who cannot make money through selling their trades. But then, maybe people without much money, who do not adventure, should just adventure? But then I don't like that idea, which is why I proposed above, a few ideas for other ways to gain cash.

I don't think anyone liked them, though.

EDIT: posted at same time as Glim. Thanks, Glim, for liking the idea, at least. Also, to change the post slightly, to make it actually answer Brar's post.

[Rhytania]

Rhytania is poor. Dirt Poor. But she likes it like that for the most part. If I cant find my components naturaly then its very rare I actually have them. Most of her money goes to newbs and helping others get started. The other half of my money is going to the poor saps Ive been raising, who still have yet to at least give me back a gem which is all that I ask (Wrevas you know who you are!) in return. Anyway Not all Level 50 old school characters are rich. When I need coin I usually hop along for quests or whatnot or help newbs in tough areas, but for the most part just causually playing without "farming" for money is nigh impossible to get any with the shop keepers refusing to buy the crap that junks off of the mobs. I like the idea of the infinite coin shop keeper very much, becuase whats the point of even having mobs junk gear if all you can make out of it is maybe a couple of gold if your lucky.