Magic Mirror/RP/PK

[Lerytha]

Right. Well, my character has had a long (and rather irritating) RP of using her magic mirror spell, to scry out any "baddies", to check up on them, and to see if they need to be guarded against.

Today, I did just this. I scried out a person who had once been extremely rude to my character IC. So, IC, that person immediately went on her list to be watched. She scried him out today, and saw him in a place which she considers herself to be a guardian of, and so teleported in.

At this point, OOC concerns were raised (after the person she had scried out had left, obviously), as to whether it is okay for me to teleport in after magic mirroring someone.

Now, teleporting is not the issue. My character has been in this place many times and knows it inside out and back to front.

What the issue is, and I am not sure what I think, is this: I am logged on, and there are say, 7 people online. One of them, is the person who was ICly rude and so ICly bears watching. The other five are people I have never met so cannot scry them.

OOCly, I look at the who list and realise the character is online. So I scry him ICly, see him doing something wrong, and then move to act.

Is this poor use of the who list? When I typed "who" it was merely to see who was online. Not to target anyone. Then when I saw that character, I thought "Hmm... my character hasn't heard from him for awhile... what's he up to?"

So she scried him. I think I acted ICly, and correctly, but I am having second thoughts as because yes, technically, it is only because of the who list that I sought out this character, which was OOC information.

What do people think of the situation? What do the imms say?

I would say here, that I think wizards doing this are fine. We have to use the who list, because there is no point scrying someone who isn't there. This isn't to say that I use the who list completely. If I see someone "evil" on the who list, I don't automatically think... ah... he's alone online, let's kill 'im. I magic mirror 'im, and see if there is potential for legitimate RP. That's my input to the discussion, if there is one.

~Ol

[Rennick]

I would say that you acted properly. If the MUD were "real"...then that person would always be around, so the "who" list wouldn't matter. So I think that it is acceptable to use the "who" list to see who is on, so that you can RP involving that person. As I said, the main reason I think it is alright is because if the Forgotten Kingdoms were a "real" place, this person would have never been logged out, so you could have scried him anyway. But before you could do that, you just needed to be sure he was online, because it is just a game and people do log in and out, making RP more difficult.

[Scylere]

Normally, I would think this sounds fine, but if you think about it...it's very unIC for a character to be scrying "baddies" every five seconds. Even if it's just a game and people log in and log out, it's hardly fun for a baddie when someone scries them, just because they log in.

Also, if you are looking for "rp" by scrying for a "baddie", that is no doubt looking for a fight.

In a sense, this "random scrying" becomes "purposeful, based on OOC info, scrying".

If the character had a person inform them of a baddie's present actions then decided to scry them, it would be completely IC. But seeing someone that's on the who list then scrying for them, in my opinion, is using OOC info for IC purposes. (No offence to Zach..at all.) It's almost like making your character omniscient.

[Zach]

good point scylere, but no offance was taken... STILL!

some baddies pose more of a direct harm to that character then others....

so you would hold some form of check on that person.

The who list is IC, it says so in the help file. What I would have done to begin with it tell that player OOC if they are willing to do a bit of RPing before teleporting... you don't know how long that player will be online, if he is just wasting a few minutes or whatever... it's OOC curticy or whatever...

Teleporting to him after MMing him is compleatly IC for you to do if you consider yourself a "gardian" of that place, to see what business they had there and all that jazz...

if seeing someone on the who list and decided to scry them would be OOC... then why have the spell to do it? because that is all it's going to be used for... if they are there and friendly and you saw them a few minutes ago... you would use mindspeak to ask where they are and stuff... *shrugs* my opin

[Lerytha]

Well, I would disagree there, Scylere. I very rarely look for PK. I despise it. But I do look for RP, and if it leads to PK in a feasible way, that's fine.

In this situation, I don't scry baddies every 5 seconds. But yes, I do it a lot. And is it bad that I do it, or unIC? I really don't think so, because that's what my character does. She watches. A lot of people.

The issue here, is my use of the who list. I freely admit I used the who list. How can you not? You can't scry someone who is not there, and so you wait for an evil to log on, and if you see them somewhere, doing something which your character hates, that's an opportunity for RP. So, bingo, I take it.

Also, I apologise if an evil character's player felt targetted. But then, there are places you can RP as an evil character, and my character would not have found you, or even gone there. Attacking a place that she holds dear might justify her teleporting there.

I think in hindsight, I could have used an otell, just to ask. But then, that would have felt to me more OOC, then just acting IC. I can say that in this situation, no OOC considerations happened, at all. I didn't think, "Oh, he's on his own" or "Oh, an evil, he must be doing something bad". I saw a character on the who list. I scried. I RPed.

In future, should we use otells, then, so the player can say if they are okay with RP coming their way?

EDIT: to make the final question make more sense.

[Dalvyn]

It looks perfectly fine to me.

[Scylere]

I think magic mirror should be adjusted or something.

It doesn't really make sense that a character would be scrying all the baddies to "watch" them. How many baddies does that character know? Does that character scry them all every day? That's a lot of scrying.


As a side note, I thought the titles on the who list were IC info, not the fact that those people are "online". How can "onlineness" be IC info?

[Gwain]

I don't think she is scrying all the "baddies", just scrying those she has interacted with and judges to be hostile enemies. I believe that the information on the who list was made ic a while back, just knowing names through the who list might be un ic.

[Scylere]

Today, I did just this. I scried out a person who had once been extremely rude to my character IC. So, IC, that person immediately went on her list to be watched. She scried him out today, and saw him in a place which she considers herself to be a guardian of, and so teleported in.

That's just scrying the hostile enemies?

I just think that using magic mirror like that just doesn't make sense.

Character thinks.."hmm..I think I'll scry this person today." You honestly think that's how it would go?

[Gwain]

Sounds like it, she chose to scry someone that had been rude or hostile to her and see what they are doing currently. That does not sound like she is scrying once again all the baddies that are online, just the ones she knows in an attempt to keep track of her detractors and such. Do you think there is a problem with a pc icly keeping tabs on their enemies through magic?

[Scylere]

First of all, there was no hostilities between them, just a dislike to each other.

Second, Miriel said that she scries all the baddies when she comes online.

I wouldn't have a problem if the two characters were mortal enemies, but they had only met once. That's reason to scry a person every day?

[Gwain]

This sounds like something you might want to send to complaints@forgottenkingdoms.com, without naming names or ic situations here in the forums. If you feel you were treated unfairly oocly in an ic situation then it is best to send a log of the event to complaints and wait for a response from the admin team. Though it has already been stated on this forum that the method used in the game by the player was thoroughtly ic.

[Scylere]

No, this his nothing to do with that player or any player. I have no complaint against the player.

I just think that magic mirror, in general, is poorly used in the game. So much so that it seems really dumb that a character would choose a specific baddie on a specific day, or all the days and of all the hundreds of thousands of people in the world. Kind of a ridiculous concept.

[Rhytania]

It doesn't really make sense that a character would be scrying all the baddies to "watch" them. How many baddies does that character know? Does that character scry them all every day? That's a lot of scrying.

It doesnt matter how many she knows, all that matters is that she knew you, scryed you and saw you picking off elves or something. How is that not IC? Not IC would have been her just teleporting to you then unleashing a couple of magic missiles. Would there have been any argument if there where 100 baddies on? Not really, you where just the unlucky one. And its not like a good vs evil thing where the goodies get all the good stuff, no evils can scry just as good. There is a reason why evils cost kismet to make and thats becuase the play is a bit harder than that of a goodie.

Ok Now to my favourite part: The Shameless Plug
In DND chars who pump skills into scry have the ability upon succes to know who is scribing them. Maybe we can do something similiar in the mud? An actual scry skill that wil echo something to the effect of so and so is attempting to scry you. Or you sense So and So watching from a distance, or no echo at all if the pc failed its skillcheck?

[Scylere]

This isn't a whine because my character was "caught".

This is me suggesting that magic mirror is sort of misused in the game. It's like teleport. There are guidelines on teleport. Shouldn't there be on magic mirror too?

But I guess I'm the only one who thinks so.

[Mariela]

I personally loatht he magic mirror scrying thing.

I have had people spy upon Mariela before and in the case both characters involved were GOOD but they interrupted manythings by their scrying. And then wouldn't RP the consequences of being found out to be spying upon other people.

It's just ugh!
It's one thing for someone to ask you to find out where this person is at, or watch this event with scry. I have done that with another character during the Ardeep thign to make sure our friends did not die running in there. But it's something else to scry upon people for fun and it chafs me everytime. I think it's mostly cause you don't know when someone is scrying. There is no bell sounding or your hair standing up on end, nothing. Which I will grant is not very reasonable, but we should have a reasonable ability to know we are being scryed upon....

*coughs* Imanamerican! *coughs*

So take what I say with a grain of salt.

[Rhytania]

How can you put a guideline on Magic Mirror? So far you can only scry people you know of ICly and have/had spent enough time around to know that person. Would you restrict it to those who arent on the who list or only make mobs scryable? That makes no sense. ICly your character would be around 24/7 and opened to be scryable. Looking on the who list should still makes no difference.

[Lerytha]

I hesitate to get re-involved in this post, because now anything I say will be seen as obviously biased, and perhaps targetted towards one person. This is not the case.

I have been the "victim" of a magic mirror spell. And personally, I really enjoy it. Recently, I have been part of RP where I am actually paranoid about who might be watching, or listening. This is good, imo. When there is magic, we should always be wary of being watched.

If we put drawbacks or limitations to the spell, then it reduces the sheer enjoyment of being nervous in your character. Does your character meet with tieflings, at the risk of being spotter? Your call. Does your character attack a priest of Tyr, at the risk of being scried -just- at that moment? Your call.

Making it easier for the scryee to avoid that, cheapens the spell. Also, the spell is now fourth level, and has a component cost that does actually mount up. So its not inexhaustible, any more. Maybe a -spell- could be added, such as "detect scrying", which is fair enough.

But an automatic, extremely OOC protection against it? Nooo.

I would agree to having some guidelines put on it. But to what purpose? And what would those guidelines be?

Oooooh.... the mystery.

[Raona]

To the extent that over-scrying is a problem, it is certainly a blade that cuts both ways. I can only assume the baddies watch the goodies as much as, if not more, than vice-versa.

As a non-magic user, I sometimes get pretty steamed at how public even my morning ablutions have become of late. But if people memorize the spell, I think they've as much right to use it as magic missile. If they can do so too easily, then up the component cost or somesuch, but it seems a low-percentage spell. (Most of the time when you scry someone, they are doing something boring.)

Despite always being on the receiving end of these type of spells, I do think it only reasonable to use the WHO list to decide when to attempt to scry upon another. Even then, most of the time, you should find them doing something boring, like walking around. If you happen to spot them doing something exciting (well, provided it's not lude!) by all means I think you can pay them a visit. It'd be nice to react with an offer to pick up again another time if the other party has to go for OOC reasons.

[Dugald]

If it's used that way, a good character targeting rude/evil/abhominal characters to protect areas that adhere to his alignment - then it should also be acceptable for evil characters to target disgustingly cute/lovable/innocent characters who are doing things that evil characters dispise....like reading peaceably in a library, picking flowers, saving citizens from goblins, or defending anybody against any evil (all good training areas where you kill living or unliving things).

In my opinion, that gets a little too confrontational. I'm sure complaints would be made if flying evil wizards teleported into good/neutral aligned training zones and started buffing all the mobs or blinding the PC's forcing them to talk instead of fight - with the clear case of just roleplaying.

Everyonce in a while, to pop in just to let the other know folks know what he/she is up to and have a back and forth...that's cool to me. But if it gets to the point where a character can't go train because there are watchdog good aligned characters who shoot off scry spells on solely evil/rude PC's (which really makes a pretty good chance of an evil character getting caught training)...that's where it becomes a nuisance.

Think of all the evil npc's in the game. Then the evil PC's who regularly log (maybe a dozen?)...it gets a little silly when it's put into statistical perspective. But as Dalvyn said, by the rules, there is nothing wrong with it.

In my opinion, though, that doesn't necessarily mean it should be done.