Default grouping - why are they joined at the hip anyway?

[Raona]

I may be an extreme case in the opposite of that considered here, but my experience may be relevant all the same:

I have introduced several folks to the MUD (Hi Sis! Hi Friends!), but do not RP much with of any of them, as much as I might like to, mostly because of my odd schedule and limited chances to play. I certainly don't have "regulars" that I RP with, and I try not to learn of people's alts: echoing what others have said, I don't want to know! My spouse dislikes RP and so I truly play, OOC, as a loner. There are times when (like when my hard drive crashed and I lost tons of quest info) that's truly frustrating, but for the most part, I like it.

In fact, I don't like it when I log, and suddenly people seek me out...it's been the biggest drawback to the otherwise fun RP of joining the Watch. (Well, that and the endless reports one has to file...but saluting and trying to talk people into behaving properly, that's fun, especially with chaotics!) I enjoy meeting new people, especially truly new players, and grow frustrated when the tells come so fast and furious that I can't meet the new people in the square; its rare that I have time enough to do so as it is. So it comes as something of a surprise to me that others would *choose* to hang out with those they know, rather than meet new folks. But hey, I'm an odd duck: I know that already, you probably do too.

Using Kelemvor's terminology, I think that both "cliques" and "pairs" certainly exist, and some of them exhibit some of the negative traits ascribed to them in this discussion. But I also agree that each can be nifty, provided they aren't moved to exclusivity or slide down the other slippery slopes; in a word, the negative traits can be avoided. I mean, for example, if you can avoid sharing info between your *own* alts, you should be capable of doing the same between members of your pair or clique. So what it all boils down to is that just as having an alt (I don't, at least not yet) opens a whole new realm of possible badness, which you have to avoid (or you shouldn't create an alt!), so too does forming or having OOC relationships with other players. If you do the things Kelemvor listed, it's bad. You have more ways to get in trouble if you have OOC connections to other players. It's your job to be cognizant of that, and avoid them; and I think many people do. But not all, of course.

It can be hard to know when you are using your OOC relationships for good, or ill. If you have this great expedition all set, but desperately need a theif, and none you know are logged in...you can either disband the party and say "oh well," or you can IM your friend and viola, the expedition can proceed. Is that OK? I'm not sure I know. Maybe there really isn't a theif logged in at all...then again, maybe that shadowy stranger in the square IS a theif, and really keen to get in on some RP! If you HAD to go looking for someone, you would find them, and that would be a far better situation, to my eyes, than IMing in your friend. (Then again, maybe this theif turns out to exaggerate his skills, and be a liability for the party, or a real pain to RP with; then the expedition is worse than disbanded, it's ruined...yeah, I understand why people stick with the people they know! Part of keeping people willing to give newcomers a chance is to recruit *good* new players to the MUD!)

So, to answer Lord Death's questions to us for myself:

Am I imagining these pitfalls?

No - they are very real - I think every one you mentioned does actually occur.

Is it fine for off-game partnerships to dictate play? Is it okay to ignore IC reality in favour of them?

No, but it's not that simple. Because there *is* an OOC reality behind the MUD, it can cause a lot of OOC frustration, and even IC unreality (there's not a theif/priest of garl/ etc. to be found in the realms right now...) to studiously *avoid* taking advantage of off-game partnerships and friendships. Like any tool, they can be used appropriately, or inappropriately...and like a wrench or a hammer, it can even be hard to know if a use is appropriate until after you've done it. (Was it a good idea to try to fix my car? Not if I make it worse... Was it a good idea to IM my friend who has a theif? Not if we later learn that one was sitting in the square, lonely.)

Let me conclude with two words of hope:
1) The more people your PC gets to know IC, the less most of these problems are likely to arise. Meet people! Greet people! Even if its by intimidation (Hi Grafgur! Hi Blue!), get your name out there. Interact! That's what leads to fun RP!

2) You *can* be a loner and get pulled into major RP's. Like I said, I am a OOC loner, and a relative noob. If you play actively, thoughtfully, and have a little bit of luck, it'll happen. It might even be the result of Immly intervention: they watch us RP far more than you probably think! (I only know this because of all the recent code updates, and all the...um...extra people that materialize out of the shadows afterward. Hey, I'm OOC observant!)

I hope that people appreciate the magic of FK enough to want to share it with new players, even if some of them don't turn out to be FK material. Something this fun is too good to greedily keep to yourself, or even your immediate circle. At least, it certainly has been for me. (Though some of the folks I've told curse me for getting them hooked!)

[Shabanna]

Thankfully this hasn’t yet filtered through onto the boards, imagine what would happen if friends or partners began posting to support each other when arguing a point or requesting a change to the game.

Oh my Kel...
But it HAS!!! lol I have thumb screws that I use on Kregor to get him to post in my favour when I come here and stir up the pile!!! lol You know how that works when you are married?? the WOMAN is always right. ROFLMAO!!!!!!! well .. she is right... or the man sleeps on the COUCH!

*smirks and awaits Kregors reply*

Actually I want to say... that I have cackled at The death of one of Kregor's Characters more than once... hearing explicatives from the other room I run in and look over his shoulder... and then smirk as I pat him on the shoulder and recommend that he PRAY... go back to watching Miami ink...

As a married couple who both build together and play the game together
(as IC married, IC friends, IC enemys, or even.. *gasp* IC rivals... dont ask...) we probably try HARDER to keep information IC since, not only does it ruin the fun... There are plenty of people who ASSUME that cause you are under the same roof that you will always share IC info and the like.

Maybe we have a unique relationship... I dunno... but it is the best flattery when we have people assume we have shared info... when in fact.. our Characters were simply sneaking around ICly without a word OOC and noone noticed!!!!!!! ROFLMAO ( I cant give specifics... but we laugh about it frequently)

I have very dear friends on the game... and I know many others do as well. I will never say I have not made a character in order to play with a friend or my husband .. that is absurd. But I also play with people I do not know... and I go OUT of my way... to help when I see someone stumbling along searching for a place to fit in. Noone likes to be left out and I would never shun playing with a new person HOWEVER... I do not cross the IC reasoning boundary. I think there is no crime in playing with friends and family.. so long as you keep it all IC and you dont use it to your advantage.

I think people would think Todd ( Kregor) and I were crazy if they looked in and saw us both sitting next to one another... with our laptops... silent while we played! lol IN truth... I talk to him more when he is playing a character I have no interaction with lol

I dunno.. maybe Im rambling. YES...Cliques can be hurtful if *used* to exclude or gain advantage...but I also know that when you have a friend you play with... or a hubby or other family member... it is a lot of Fun!! Just keep it IC and fair. *shrug*

*forces Kregor to post in agreement with her....* lol

"The Banna"

[Selveem]

I know this is an old post, but I just read it:

Regarding cliques, pairs, and the like:

I admit I am party to many of those _IC._

I do happen to know, however, that most of the characters involved in one of my character's 'cliques' or the other half of his 'pair' does not translate to another character's IC company.

Do I ignore a newbie (or, for that matter, any other character) because I am with a character's other half of a pair? Or, because I am on a character who is with his IC clique?

These are the questions that should be asked.

To me, the answer is no. I personally enjoy meeting new people.

Now, I realize some of these characters will not prefer the characters of mine they meet all the time. Selveem, my 'main,' is often quite difficult to understand. He has his scars - physical, as well as emotional. He is not proud, nor humble, but believes heavily on honor.

Admittedly, when I know a character is new I bend my IC role a little to help out. If that is bad, I'm sorry. I refuse to change that. I remember when I was new. I was a Dwarf starting in Mithril Hall - now, that is a hard place to start as a newb. REAL hard. I spent many, many hours down there myself trying to learn the game.

Because of how hard it was for me to start out, I am probably much more understanding than most in regards to how hard it is to start out. I am very happy that code has been changed to basically only allow starting out in Waterdeep for new characters. With the meager 3 copper you earn (or whatever the exact amount is) for killing in the Mithril Hall newbie area, it is extremely hard to even afford your food as a newbie.

Now, getting back to the topic long since passed:

I do not think _IC_ cliques/pairs are bad. In fact, I feel they are as natural as in real life. The only shame is that there are currently so few players. If you honestly feel pairs are bad, think if we had about 50 people on at one time at all times? Would pairs be bad then? Would small groups be so horrible? I think the bastardization of such a thing is actually a little absurd.

The comments mentioned are of problem players, not of 'cliques/pairs' as a generalization. Problem players are dealt with, eventually. Thus far, I have seen nothing that convinces me that IC Cliques/Pairs are bad. I am more than open to listening to more reasons, however. But thus far, I have only seen that the problem is the player base being low.