Debate: Do people level up too quickly?

[Valdimyr]

My thoughts on this...........

I wouldn't put too much work into any type of system to stop twinks from power leveling. They benefit nothing at all from doing this, accept a hard reality that they are level 50 and have the skill level of a level 10. It would be rather embarrasing I think to look at my skill list once I was level 50 and still see apprentice stamped all over it. Twinks will be twinks and you shouldn't really prevent a system to stop them, but instead encourage them to slow it down and pace theirselves.

The way I level is basically like this........
I play for 10 hours (trying not to idle at all in this time so that I know I was actually playing) and gain a higher level of skill in at least 2 or more of my skills or spells before going to gain to the next level. It doesn't matter which skill or spells I succeed in getting better at, though at some levels I usually do try to practice a certain one that I know will payoff and benefit me more in the long run.

I enjoy escaping to an unknown world where I can be anything I want to be, and do almost anything I can imagine doing, why would I want to rush through it and it end before it even began?

With this system I use for myself, my scoresheet looks like this.......
I am level 38 and have played for 404 hours.
My skills list has only but a few that are still apprentice (less than 5) and the rest are adept and up with the occasional journeyman status on a few.

It has been the greatest 404 hours I believe I have ever spent on something, and I don't ever have to question myself with things like, "Am I going to fast?" Though, I still do ask myself, "Should I slow down" and enjoy it more and make it last that much longer. Remember, it's not a race, but an adventure. Live it, don't zoom past it.

[Alaudrien]

I agree in part with Valdimyr. It is easy to get experience but when your skills are still far far inferior in there ranks its kinda like. Hey im lvl 50 and a lvl 25 with a decent lvl in there skills acn prob beat the snot out of me! Skills I see seem to have more of an affect when fighting and other such rather than lvls. I think that lvls only seem to affect more like how much hp you got how much stamina you have and what skills you can go get at the trainers. While someone who sticks lvl 20 for a long while and have skills at journeyman or higher seem to be more successful in there battles and other endeavors. That and if someone didn't just go level and kept there levels on par with there ability in combat and what else they do would fit. Heck I could see someone who plays a char who doesnt go out and fight but rps a blacksmith or a jewelry smith who only has stock in his trade skills and kept there lvls on par. While not bothering with combat related stuff. It would be like they are lvl such and such as a tradesman.

[Japcil]

Im either missing the point or someone else did but isnt that just twinking skills instead of level?

[Alaudrien]

Hehe it could be. If that is all your doin. I can see people go out and train there skills. Especially if they sit and or run into people stop training and rp as well. That or putting those two things together. The goal isn't to just do one thing but either put them together do one when you have no rp. Or rp while doing 'training' ..My thoughts are getting mixed in my head now -pouts-

[Japcil]

Well if the case to increase skill levels is to RP the same can be said about levels. Players could then say hey im power levelin mr. immortal because I want to roleplay in those dangerous areas that a lower level player would die in. And thats just it. Level in anything shouldn't matter, if you or someone else dies thats great because it adds to the roleplay and gives a reason to keep a priest/ess around.

[Valdimyr]

I really wouldn't say that I am twinking skills. I mean, if roleplaying with your friends and going off into an adventure where you use the skills you have and take 10-14 hours just to raise one or two of them a notch I hardly see that as twinking.

I heard the other day someone saying that the average person in the realm, when taking their time, takes 300 hours of playing time to get to level 50. Well, I'm already at 404 hours and still 12 levels away from 50. I take my time and only use the skills where they are needed. I am not some twink that just sits there and types kick, kick, kick, kick, kick, kick, kick, kick,........etc..

Even when I am alone and by myself, I sit there and do smotes to explain my actions and act out the skill I am performing while fighting or whatever it is that is going on.

[Nicolya]

I've been finding it is really easy to level up. I've been trying to put a cap on my as how far I will raise my levels in a time frame, to try to reflect the new path my character has gained, as an initiate priestess of her faith.
Of also trying to help people, both PC's and mobs (quests). When I do get the chance to party with people or try to complete a quest that requires combat, I feel guilty that I am "stockpiling" xp.

I know xp is required to raise skills/spells, so that part is good. It's just to use that excess of xp I have I often need more coins than I have. And going from a general cleric with just a few spells every level to a full priest with lots and lots of spells per level it becomes overwhelming in which ones do I try to focus on, with training. (Not countin those spells that dont mesh with the ethos of the god, like animate dead and followers of lathander and kelemvor)

Or my character I try to engage in some combat to try to reflect her training with an off class weapon, that its going to take her time to learn how to properly use it.

I really dont have any solutions to offer, just my advice. I am 140+ hours old and sitting at 21 right now.

I do like where sometimes you are down to your last copper for somethings, like components and training. When in other games I have played at the copper is basically worthless. And getting 10 platinum is a big big deal, at least for me.

There is the teach command too which is nice, but not something I've ventured into as I am unsure of how to approach it IG with my character.

[Japcil]

In response to Val I want you to know I wasn't attacking you. I was just questioning that yes during RP that involve questing and fighting mobs you gain exp and who is to question that you should use it on spells/skills and not level. And I understand also you are more talking about gaining in the spell by using it not training it from a NPC.

[Valdimyr]

Yep, that sounds about right. Well, not about, but that sounds right.

And I know you weren't attacking me, because that wouldn't be wise now that I know dual wield (insert chuckle here).

[Lathander]

Can you twink levels? Of course.

Can you twink skills? Of course.

Can you get better at both with a decent rate of improvement while rping with others, escaping the grind of your real lives for a few hours? Yes, and that is what we try to provide at FK. It is not a place to come to lord your prowess at manipulating the system over others. I like what I read from Valdimyr. Make it fun for yourself, interact with others who also want to have fun, escape reality for a little while and let the code work as designed and not as you might want to manipulate it.

Thank you to all who do that. You make FK better for everyone and perhaps even attract others who have yet to discover what we are trying to do here.

Lathander

[Daediana]

I think you are just going to run into this with all games... but I dont think we really need a time per level sort of thing. Some people have characters that don't exactly spent 24/7 in public around the fountain waiting to converse with someone... it depends on the character, and some characters might devote every waking day to training because that's who they are, they strive for perfection and blah blah... but I know a lot of it is just twinking... which I think personally, they are missing out. But I also spend a lot of time training when either I, as the player, do not feel like I'm in the right frame of mind to play Daediana, or when I first start a new character, because I'm still figuring them out. I know the frame I want them to be in, and plus for some characters to be what we want them to be when they start their RP we need them to be at a certain level. Now I think something like you cannot pass level 30 until you have logged at least... lets say 200 hours on that character. But if they want to hurry and get to 30 so that they have a little bit of power behind them or something, I dont think that's necessarily a bad thing for RP. So putting a time limit at like 30, 40 and 50 would be alright but I dont think anything below that would be a good idea.

[Leohand]

My thoughts regarding the leveling system seem to be pretty much in line with the rest - warriors improve far too fast, mages are too slow, etc. My main comment I would like to add, however, deals with the spelllevels.

I've come to find more use using low-level spells than high-level spells. Why? Simply the cost of mana - but I know this may be changing soon with a revamped spell system. But currently lower-level spells are more effective and more damaging in the long run. Sure, I can take down two or three enemies quickly with my flame arrows, but by then I've already run out of mana and am helpless against more enemies. With the lower-level spells (my personal favorites are magic missile, chill touch, shocking grasp, and sound burst) I am able to still defeat the enemy in a routine process while preserving myself for future battles. The only time a high-level spell is useful is when I am fighting a single, powerful mob. Other than that, I perfer the lower levels.

I'm not sure whether or not this should be fixed - magic missile could be considered the 'bread and butter' spell for wizards. But if it was to be fixed I would suggest to target the higher-level spells. Make them cost much less mana, but take a considerably longer time to cast. Most of these spells take a couple rounds to cast. This could make the high level spells much more effective yet keeping them in good balance.

Personally, I very my leveling from character to character. For example, my dwarf fighter levels up quicker then my cleric. but that's not entirely true, because when I was leveling my fighter I was still learning my way around, and also I gave my cleric quick combat, so I could increase her spell repretoire. This particular cleric is going to seek out every spell that can be learned, and seek to Grandmaster them all, but without cure Critical and such high-level healing spells, my cleric just wouldn't last long even against the goblins on howling peaks. Heck, just yesterday the cleric nearly died because one of the sentries had a spear on it. That was unexpected.

[Dalvyn]

Personally, I very my leveling from character to character. For example, my dwarf fighter levels up quicker then my cleric. but that's not entirely true, because when I was leveling my fighter I was still learning my way around, and also I gave my cleric quick combat, so I could increase her spell repretoire. This particular cleric is going to seek out every spell that can be learned, and seek to Grandmaster them all, but without cure Critical and such high-level healing spells, my cleric just wouldn't last long even against the goblins on howling peaks. Heck, just yesterday the cleric nearly died because one of the sentries had a spear on it. That was unexpected.

So, basically, you are saying that you are levelling up... in order to be able to level up?

Note that, if you don't want to die, you can also group up.

[Leohand]

Personally, I very my leveling from character to character. For example, my dwarf fighter levels up quicker then my cleric. but that's not entirely true, because when I was leveling my fighter I was still learning my way around, and also I gave my cleric quick combat, so I could increase her spell repretoire. This particular cleric is going to seek out every spell that can be learned, and seek to Grandmaster them all, but without cure Critical and such high-level healing spells, my cleric just wouldn't last long even against the goblins on howling peaks. Heck, just yesterday the cleric nearly died because one of the sentries had a spear on it. That was unexpected.

So, basically, you are saying that you are levelling up... in order to be able to level up?

Note that, if you don't want to die, you can also group up.

There is truth to what you say, but a lot of hours I've been on Waterdeep's been pretty deserted. and it's hard to group when there's so few adventurers around, so I put my efforts into power-leveling a while, just to get to the point where my cleric can stand on it's own two feet and hold its own.

[Harroghty]

When I started FK I really had no concept of the game and leveled to about 30 in several days. When I returned to the game after about two years' time I discovered that, sure, being level thirty-something had its advantages but I had really handicapped myself in terms of skill levels. You pay for leveling too quickly already I think. I agree with Lathlain though, if there's no one to RP with then go for it.. power level, do what you want.. as long as you play when there's the chance to. Forgotten Kingdoms is still a game and games are designed for fun, I don't think you should penalize someone for having a different perception of fun unless it becomes a problem that disrupts others' gameplay.

People will realize the error of their ways in time and start to play differently, and if they don't then call a spade a spade deal with them on that level.

[Leohand]

When I started FK I really had no concept of the game and leveled to about 30 in several days. When I returned to the game after about two years' time I discovered that, sure, being level thirty-something had its advantages but I had really handicapped myself in terms of skill levels. You pay for leveling too quickly already I think. I agree with Lathlain though, if there's no one to RP with then go for it.. power level, do what you want.. as long as you play when there's the chance to. Forgotten Kingdoms is still a game and games are designed for fun, I don't think you should penalize someone for having a different perception of fun unless it becomes a problem that disrupts others' gameplay.

People will realize the error of their ways in time and start to play differently, and if they don't then call a spade a spade deal with them on that level.

Actually, I only leveled up to 29, to get my stats up to a point where I could handle my own most of the time. Before I go to 30 I am planning to train everything I can train, every single spell.

[Moradin]

Best not to quote verbatim an entire post when answering the points made, it soon fills the page up.

When answering a sequencial post just assume everyone has read the preceding one, or quote a line or two if you are responding to a specific point that was raised earlier.

[Ceara]

I think the levelling system is fine as it is. Granted I haven't levelled a warrior in over five years, and play wizards or clerics. But one point is, you do not have to advance your level if you do not wish to. It is your choice to train the level. I find it hard to level as it is, though I try to rp more than levelling. I also like to train alone for the most part.
For example my current character has 518 hours and she is only level 45. I'm finding it difficult to find mobs to train against that won't kill her and will give her experience. The time per level is perhaps a good idea except that people who don't have a lot of time to play will suffer for it.
I haven't read the entire thread, I stopped after Rhytania's suggestion of the last 10 levels only being granted by another player. That I think would be unfair, it gives players too much power over other players. Maybe player X doesn't like player Y so they refuse to give them levels they deserve. Or player X likes player Z and gives them levels they don't deserve. It is too open to abuse.

[Harroghty]

Plus there is always the trouble of coordinating your schedule with said player. You could have to wait who knows how long until that player logs again in order to level.

[Estrild]

This was five hundred thousand years ago - or about seven months, I suppose - but I very much liked Solaghar's idea to tie the detriment of power-levelling to one's kismet. It seems logical, as kismet is meant to be a reward for non-twinkish behavior, and really I always felt it was sort of sad that the kismet system wasn't really used as much as it has the potential of being.

Speaking as the owner of a character with 1500 hours but who has still not yet attained that prestigious, silver-coated level 50, my vote may be a bit biased, but I find how rapidly people level up to be a bit appalling. In "real life" terms, level fifty (and, while we're at it, grandmastered skills) is comparable to gold medal Olympic winners. They obsessively trained their whole lives and now they are like unto little mortal gods of their specialties, and everyone knows their names because of it. I have yet to hear of an Olympic gold medal winner who, after turning 16, left his small hometown of Darromar, travelled to Waterdeep, and grandmastered ice skating before his 17th birthday.

I also find it a little bit awkward on a strictly-RP level. It seems strange to me to meet characters that I have never encountered or heard of before who could disintegrate my character with an eyetwitch. Who were these characters, I find myself wondering, and in what hole were they hiding for the twenty years it took them to have such an amazing and complete grasp of the arcane marvel known only as flamestrike? Surely I ought to have heard of or seen them practicing - from their young, wee years as a tot, setting fire to the house cat's tail; to their budding angsty teenage years, trying to charm a girl into a date; to their more formidable adult stages of life, as their name grew in prestige and power.

While I'd love to say otherwise, I honestly don't feel that there should be an actual time limit imposed on levels - you're free to twink, as Harroghty suggested, as long as it doesn't drastically affect everyone's gameplay; perhaps you even have a background story to support your absurd power increases - but I like the idea of the kismet detractions. It puts a vaguely dampening effect on power-levelling, while still not limiting the system so completely.