Stats

[Scylere]

Having to rest and sleep every 4 rooms sucks, I agree. I'd be all fine with modifying the evolution of move points.

That is, if currently, the evolution is:

10 move points per level (level 1: 10 mp, level 50: 500 mp),

I'd be all fine with turning it into

200 + 6 move points per level (level 1: 206 mp, level 50: 500 mp).

Edit. I just talked with Mask about this possible change, and he's fine wtih it. So, if the opinions are mostly positive, Todd, can you Bugzilla it please?

I'm not sure about what Dalvyn was suggesting for a change in movement, because I don't know a lot of the code stuff.

I'm just wondering why stamina is related to level at all. Shouldn't it be completely dependent on Constitution? In dnd, any version, you could be level 50 and still not be able to walk very far according to your Constitution, or you could be level 1 and be able to walk or fight forever according to your Constitution.



In a different direction....

The stats in character creation were changed, so that you could not drop a stat below average and there were caps on how high a stat could go in character creation.

I was disappointed that I couldn't make my stats go below average. The cap makes perfect sense, but it would be nice to be able to make characters with below average stats, for rp purposes.

I realize that this was to keep people from maxing the "good stats" and lowering the "stat dump" (aka Charisma), then not rping a low charisma or whichever stat it was. At least, that was my impression. I am sure it was more complicated than that.

This is just my opinion. I don't know if anyone else has the same, though it would be nice to hear if some did. I'd be fine with losing stats that couldn't be placed, if that's what it came to. Personally, I enjoy rping low stats sometimes.

[Leohand]

That would have been nice. for rp reasons of course. In the case of most of my characters, I was happy having at leat average, but there was one I would have reduce charisma on, no more then two points though. and ptobably would have put those points on dexterity. But all the same, I am happy with the system they came up with, because you nailed the hammer on the head, people would abuse it. In a perfect world, everyone would role-play their stats, but it doesn't work that way sometimes.

[Dalvyn]

I realize that this was to keep people from maxing the "good stats" and lowering the "stat dump" (aka Charisma), then not rping a low charisma or whichever stat it was. At least, that was my impression. I am sure it was more complicated than that.

Guess what?

The day after we put in the new system, that allowed players to take off points from some stats and put them into other stats (with the goal in mind to allow people to roleplay weaknesses), we got a bunch of characters with the following stat:

Str: 18 (because it's important to be able to carry many things)
Dex: 8 (because the AC system is completely wrong and having a metal armour is enough)
Con: 18 (hit points, people, hit points aplenty!)
Int: 18 (sure, it's not really IC... but people "in the know" know that high Intelligence is/was very useful to increase skills faster)
Wis: 8 (who cares? The code does not use this stat!)
Cha: 8 (who cares? The code does not use this stat!)

[Mariela]

That does not surprise me at all Dalvyn.

If people actually thought that no one would abuse a system that lets you "slide" your stats around, I am shocked at you.

Actually, this is the first I've ever really heard about this sliding stat thing. I am sure there is a link on here somewhere. However, here's my thing..

What is so important about your character that you have to hav ethe ability to slide your stats yourself? If you are going to change your start stats, you should have to apply for it like everything else with reasons why the change should go into effect.

Now, if we are talking about trading in Glory for stats, that's different. It's stacking already on those base numbers which at least one is probably crap.

I personally don't think you should be able topick those base numbers. I think the game should generate them randomly basedupon what sort of character you want to play. S o if you are a fighter, you get higher strength, or Dex if you pickedt hat ranger type mix. And so forth. Those base stats, because we do not "roll dice" for them, but they are use in simular ways to a character sheet, should not be under our direct control.

It makes the game more random and makes the game more... diverse in personality.

And there is nothing saying that someone can't apply for a certain set of numbers. But you should have to apply for them.

Anyways...

[Leohand]

As I said, people abused it. Now, I have a little idea. Suppose you could only reduce one stat by no more then two and keep the requirment for no more then 6 points to each skill? Then if they want to put 6, 6, and 6 into three stats they can take two points away from one stat and put on each on the two remaining stats, or two points on one of the remaining stats. It's just an idea.

Also, making this change would open up the possibility of one stat being slightly lower then usual, but the others receiving four points each.

[Kregor]

Str: 18 (because it's important to be able to carry many things)
Dex: 8 (because the AC system is completely wrong and having a metal armour is enough)
Con: 18 (hit points, people, hit points aplenty!)
Int: 18 (sure, it's not really IC... but people "in the know" know that high Intelligence is/was very useful to increase skills faster)
Wis: 8 (who cares? The code does not use this stat!)
Cha: 8 (who cares? The code does not use this stat!)

I seem to recall discussion that there were some threes in there. They used to be able to reduce them all the way to 3.

And as far as the random stat method, that's what we used to have pre-new char gen system. I raised the issue about random vs. point buy when the issue of min/maxing was getting to be an issue, even suggested a fusion to have random stats + small point shifts between the stats. Point buy system won still, they just lowered the ceiling and eliminated reduction.

[Dalvyn]

You are correct, they were 3s and not 8s.

[Leohand]

Wowsers, yeah, they really did take advantage if that's true! I still like my idea though. Being able to drop one stat by two points seems a fine way to have a weakness to me. It also would be harder to take such blatant advantage of it.

[Zach]

or... keep it the way it is.. but if they want to lower their stats below "average" (whatever number that is) then they don't get an extra stat point to put somewhere else... that way... if they want to RP a lower stat point... it is purly for RP reasons and not for "tweeking" reasons

[Leohand]

You know Zach, that's an acceptable idea to me. I wanted to lower my dwarf charasma, my first dwarf, not my second, at generation. I'm fine with it now, but I would have reduced my charisma at the time, even if I didn't get the points back, but I figure average equals ugly any more, lol. (Shrugs)

It is an interesting idea though.

[Zach]

yes leo... what i do, i treat "average" as being as low as stats can go and in my description i put it being much lower and uglier... i'll put in my description that they get distracted and looks around...

just little stuff like that, not too much detail but just enough to get peoples attention

[Leohand]

Aye, that sounds fine to me, and that's kinda the way I've been treating it, charisma at least, everything else I treat as average at average, because a lot of other stats can be reduced by sellecting a certain race. Like gold-elves get a minus 2 to constitution at generation, and if you don't put more points into it you are below average.

[Zach]

correct... forgot about that

[Lukon]

What exactly is the purpose of treating average charisma as ugly? Not only does chargen start you out at tactless, it further deflates the value of a stat that's marginally valuable as is.

Average charisma is average. Your aunt's not a model, but she's nice enough, even if she thinks you need socks for every holiday. That's average. The guy you don't quite care about, the girl you'd ask out a couple times, but you don't get that hot feeling in your face. Average. NOT ugly.

If average is ugly, then friendly is baseline (trust me, not true.) and charismatic is 'above average', when it's supposed to represent the baseline of what a PALADIN represents in panache. Think on that.

EDIT: I'd like to add a counter to the argument of "everyone and their mother is gorgeous, though!" This is a fantasy setting. You don't get so-sos as illustrations for the game books and novels for a reason. People like reading about attractive people, heroes are often charismatic and alluring to the eye. Villains have that undeniable but terrible appeal. It's a story. If you want realism, play GURPS...and figure out GURPS first.

[Leohand]

There's probably also a race that lowers charisma, maybe orcs, but for the most part that seems to be untouched by racial modifiers, at least as far as I've seen to date on the mud. So basically every other stat I consider average to be average, except charisma, and I think that is probably the best way of role-playing it too. In my opinion.

[Zach]

hey, calm down Lukon, i was stating, if you want to be ugly, and you can't change your cha stat... then treat it as ugly as you can go... just because you can't do it code wise... doesn't mean you can't RP it because of tweeking reasons...

I was not applying that all average is the lowest stat

as for all the girls i turned down... i wasn't going to take that chance... i took what I could take... because my cha is quite low

[Lukon]

Sorry, didn't mean to come off as angry (though my loathing for GURPS is quite legendary. Too much Exalted in my blood...). I see what you were trying to say. But I just don't like the idea of downplaying the value of an already tertiary stat. However, I agree that it's more than all right to play uglier for RP purposes.

[Leohand]

Lukon, you know how I said that if I could have lowered my dwarfs charisma at generation, I would have? Well, the dwarf in question is designed to be like, a member of the Gutbuster Brigade, that's the closest thing I can compare it too. He loves fighting, very much, and for rp purposes he's the largest, most redneck ugly dwarf you ever can meet, lol. That's the way I want to rp him. In his physical appearance anyway, he's actually quite wise, intelligent, and dexterous. Basically Charisma is his only really low stat, because it's useless for killing, that's the way he thinks. So, yeah, I think it's alright to play down your stats, but not to play up your stats.

[Ceara]

(Disclaimer, do not take offense, it isn't intended as such, I'm cranky because it's my only day off and the mud is down amoung other things.)

I like the stats the way they are and there is enough to have to apply for let alone applying for starting stats. I had to lower stats I could have really used in the beginning in order to raise my charisma because it was tactless or worse, It was really bad and I put 8 stats into it just to bring it to average because of the character I play. Not everyone takes advantage of it, and what if they do? They will be lacking in other areas and if it's really bad i'm sure the imms will call them on it.
Which would be far less work than wading through applications for everyones new character.
My character doesn't need a whole lot of intelligence but has it because she is intelligent rpwise. She studies a lot, and tries to know a lot.
Also I saw it mentioned bards need Charisma, So do priests and Paladins, they are leaders and should be charismatic.
I also don't think people should lose a stat because they change their mind about putting one into something.

[Charissa]

I have to completely agree with Ceara.

I like the stats the way they are and there is enough to have to apply for let alone applying for starting stats.

Mariela said,

I personally don't think you should be able topick those base numbers. I think the game should generate them randomly basedupon what sort of character you want to play. S o if you are a fighter, you get higher strength, or Dex if you pickedt hat ranger type mix. And so forth. Those base stats, because we do not "roll dice" for them, but they are use in simular ways to a character sheet, should not be under our direct control.

I really do not agree with the game randomly generating based on what sort of character you want to play. Some people, me often being one of them, think a basic outline of what they want their character to essentially be like before making them. Maybe you want a fighter that is strong and has a lot of intelligence or wisdom- not just to be a big piece of hearty meat without a brain, (Which if random, the generator could do.) Some people go into the creation with an idea of what Deity they would like their character to follow, so I think that sort of has an impact on what someone wants their character to be like. If that sounds confusing, I think what I am trying to say is, with a random generator it is not as personalized as it is now. I like the over all system now and I also liked before the new system was put in, how it had the questions for you to answer.

Though back to the original topic....

I do not see a problem with lowering a stat to below average at all, as long as you still could not go above the high cap.