Interactions between good and evil characters

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 1:49 am

Another one of those "give your opinion" threads.

Now, I know that the background of the Forgotten Realms, and even the subpart of it we use in the Forgotten Kingdoms is much more precise than a simplistic good vs evil manicheism, but we still have roughly two main groups of opposed ethos.

So, do you think that the interactions between the "good" and the "evil" are sufficient? Do they happen often enough? Do the rules (e.g., pkill rules) limit them too much? Or maybe not enough? What could be done to make them more interesting?

(By the way, this discussion is mostly about PC-to-PC interactions, not PC-kil-mob-of-opposed-ethos interactions.)

Scylere · Post by **Scylere** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:55 am

I think people tend to slip too much of a North American, postmodern view of good and evil. As in, "evil is a perspective", "it's all grey", too much reality. Good vs evil is an epic idea. It's exciting! It's surreal. It's fun! (Aran of Torm is a good example of this. A paladin fighting to triumph over evil. Does his mind seem realistic? No, but it's exciting and fun!) If you are evil, you are evil. It you are good, you are good. It's black and white. There is no grey.

In my opinion, I don't think there is enough good rp between evils and goods. I think there are awesome evil characters out there! And I think there are awesome good characters out there! I really do, but most of the time you just find a pkill between a couple people. What is the value of a pkill if there is no good rp behind?

I'd like to see more larger scale good vs evil rps. I'll write some myself, if there are imms interested in running them. Umberlites vs Selunites. Elves and orcs warring against each other. Rangers battling Malarites. Followers of the Dark Sun extending their arms to conquer villages, towns, cities. Lathanderites striking down undead armies with lich generals. Waterdeep or other towns and cities beseiged by goblin armies, ogres, dragons, evil beyond mention. I don't know what's in the Underdark, but drow expansion to Mithril Hall borders or other "good" aligned places (deep gnomes, dark dwarves, kuotoa). Maybe even a drow raid of a USEFUL and PROSPEROUS town or temple. Cult of the Dragon vs Zhentil Keep (good evil vs evil there:D). Zhentil Keep warring against the Dalelands. Sembia vs Cormyr. Grand assassinations of lords, kings, HIGH PRIESTS even. Where's Mask? Mask is behind every major upset in Toril, every god's fall, every major change. Where are you Mask? Paladins and goodly soldiers hunting down evil. Great expeditions for fabled magics and power by Mystrans - a race against the evil followers of Cyric. Chances for old heroes to show their quality (stupid Faramir). Chances for new heroes to arise. High Priests and Generals to gather their own. There is so much more. I know everyone must have some awesome ideas.

Three cheers to those who started the Demons in Ardeep rp! Awesome rp of epic proportions! This is what I'd love to see in FK. The markets of cities grow quiet when no stories of heroes, battles, wars, good overcoming evil, and sorrow beyond comprehension can be gossiped about.

Pkill rules are there to invite fun rp of battles. I don't think they limit rps in the slightest. Will there be pkills in epic rps? Yes, but the players and rp the exciting battle out! This is what a gamer lives for. This is what roleplay is all about: stories of epic fiction and fantasy, unrealistic (Who in the real world can comprehend the ideologies of good and evil?) battles of good vs evil! These are pkills worth rping out, worth fighting, fun whether you lose or win.

Hmm...I guess I got a little carried away, but this is why I play dnd and fk and everything roleplay related. A story of epic excitement...not another drab day in the market listening to people dis other people's faiths. People of similar faiths coming together to fight their enemies, not another day in the market listening to people backstab each other to get ahead in the faith. People of good coming together to fight EVIL!!! EVIL!!!:D which makes their stomachs turn at the thought of it, not another day in the market listening to people take potshots at others for trying to play their character.

This is my opinion and I'm willing to stand by it and write, lead, whatever anyone needs to make these things happen; things that I believe most of us are on here to experience.

FK is fun. The imms do a great job adding to the fun. I'd like to see us players come together in epic proportions...with a little imm magic;)

Kirkus · Post by **Kirkus** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:36 am

I think there are a decent ammount of one on one, good vs. evil interactions. Those on a small scale. But I would love to see more big plot good vs. evil stuff. It would give the world a sence of this is where we are and this is where we are going feel. A sence of plot direction. But the problem I see with that is, wait for it... not enough characters. In my mind what I picture is something like this. Every player having lots of good characters and lots of evil characters. This would give weight to organizations like the Harpers and the Zhents, Waterdeep and the Faiths. It would allow for things like large scale rp that would involve lots of people.

The problem I see right now is that we have some nice fairly large rp but it dosn't, as far as I can tell, affect the whole world. Yes the ones that are going on are good, but they only affect a small portion of the mud as far as I can tell. I want a newbie to come into the game and feel like he or she has just steped into a dynamic realm. I hate to say it but much of the mud has been exactily as is for quite some time.

I will even go so far as to suggest something like a schedule. We write out for every month what groups are going to have some big rp. So something like January Mystra, Feb. Selune, march Tempus, April Talos, May Zhents, June Waterdeep, July Shar, August Harpers.... etc. And of course each month wouldn't be limited to one faith or organization. I can't see a large Talos rp going down with out some interaction from those Chauntean goodie goodies and others.

My point is this, sometimes I am gone for a month or two, or more. But every time I come back I pray that something big has happened or is happening. Like orcs laying seige to waterdeep and making it over the walls. Or open war with the Zhents, or just something large. That is what I am looking for. Rp's that make me dream of the mud while at class, or at least in between class.

Anway, I have babbled on long enough... Hope this helps.

Zach · Post by **Zach** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:20 am

I tried to play evil characters... my mind mentality is just not "evil" maybe neutral, but I can't get myself to RP a CE character...

I do not think there are enough Evil vs Good characters and it might be because some people just CAN'T be evil... like me

I have to give it up to those evils out there who RP and RP very well... really. l love it when Good and Evil can RP and NOT get into a PK situation

Stunning them, holding them hostage, make a battel royal out of it... it would be awesome!

There need to be more evil vs good ratio and interaction...

maybe some IM runned interactions.... maybe not

Tortus · Post by **Tortus** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:43 am

Zach wrote:Stunning them, holding them hostage, make a battel royal out of it... it would be awesome!

Have you been spying on me..?

Mele · Post by **Mele** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:51 am

Tortus wrote:
Zach wrote:Stunning them, holding them hostage, make a battel royal out of it... it would be awesome!
Have you been spying on me..?

He didn't mean IRL... :o

Tortus · Post by **Tortus** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:52 am

NEVER MIND.

Lerytha · Post by **Lerytha** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:08 am

Personally, I love the "grey" sort of evil RP. Normally, "evil" characters have provided some of the most exciting RP out there. Every so often some great villain arrives, gets everyone all jittery (because lets face it, the heroes of the Realms are dying for a villain), but then leaves or gives up.

Recently, several rather worrying, and actually quite intelligent, "evils" have arrived (and old ones returned). I know my good character is terrified! Oh no!

That is the kind of good/evil interaction I love. I even like PK sometimes, as long as both good and evil characters are given a chance to enjoy even their own death. Sometimes PK interactions are just so unsatisfying. You meet someone who does a compulsory certain amount of smotes before just hitting murder, ignoring any atmospheric smotes or whatever in favour of killing you as quickly as possibly. This is true for both evils and goods so I am not placing the blame on any one group or any one person. However, when PK is decent I love it.

So I don't think we need to reduce the amount of PK (one of the questions raised by Dalvyn); nor do I think it neccessarily needs to be increased.

Do the interactions happen often enough? Yes, and no. We often see the evil characters, which is good. But these interactions are generally just the occasional sighting and glaring. Good for suspensed, but sometimes you really just want to growl/accuse/something. Not neccessarily PK, but there we are.

Anyway, as I always do at the end of my convoluted posts, I thought I would suggest something.

One thing that I think would be extremely valuable for the MUD, is the wider role organisations can play. There was a while back I saw a certain key-placed individual of a certain evil organisation online and somehow my character got involved in the plot of that organisation. It was brilliant! There was no PK, but at the same time I felt like I had stumbled across something very important. Now, I know that the organisations in question are still (to some extent) active. And in time, I think we might start seeing more of them. But I've got an idea to improve organisations.

If someone is a member of the Harpers/Zhentarim/Knights of Myth Drannor/Shadow Thieves, use Scylere's idea of regular imm-guided meetings. Like, once every two months there could be a Harper meeting in Berdusk. Maybe the evil characters are spying on the Harper hold in Berdusk to see who is a member of the illustrious organisation? Maybe they see someone leaving the hold and between then and the next meeting they kidnap them trying to gain information about the meeting.

The next meeting rolls along, and the Harpers gather. They know (because they are Harpers - they know everything

) their ally has been captured. So they assemble an adventuring party to rescue someone from the Keep. Guided by an imm maybe, they could sneak into the Keep and free her.

This would on the surface need a lot of imm involvement, but (though I'm not sure how far ahead in development is) as I see it, there is an RP Council coming up, which will most probably be able to help in the wider issue of more organisation-based RP.

One thing which might be worth considering... the idea that any good person who enters Zhentil Keep must automatically want a fight, etc. Personally, my good character would rather like to be able to visit the city and interact with evil characters. And I hate the idea that I am automatically deemed (OOC and IC) to be making a grave error. Zhentil Keep is still a city which still makes a lot of money from trade. If it enacted some of the rules of "no goods" as it seems to have enacted in the MUD, it would make no profit whatsoever.

One concrete suggestion above all other ramblings here: allow goods access to Zhentil Keep. Waterdeep once had a nice RP policy which sort of weakened the RP there. Now, Zhentil Keep has (almost) got a compulsory "kill goods RP". I am not saying that if a good goes there they can't be killed. Far from it. The goods are entering the Keep? Stupid fools had better not anger anyone whilst they're there... At the moment however if my character ever enters the Keep she almost feels like she is in another world. It is not after all, Menzoberranzan. Its still a human city and it still has to function through trade.

That's my suggestion for more and varied RP, then. Open the Keep!

Thanks for listening/reading.

~Ol

PS: Evil RPers are amazing - join them!

Edit: Final suggestion. In Waterdeep they have the adventurers' protection award or whatever. Why not have a "best evil villain" award. This might be sort of OOC - maybe even a monthly post on a board here. It encourages that evil player to stay online (and to stay evil!) and lets people know who the current big bad wolf is. Just a thought!

Yzelle · Post by **Yzelle** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:13 am

Scylere wrote:Where's Mask? Mask is behind every major upset in Toril, every god's fall, every major change. Where are you Mask?

There are soooo many webs of intrigue that are being and have been woven by those devoted to the Shadow Lord. You just don't see them coming. If you did, they wouldn't be intrigue, now would they?

Yzelle · Post by **Yzelle** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:14 am

grrr.. stupid double post

Layna · Post by **Layna** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:28 pm

I would absolutely love to see more interaction between goods and evils on a grander scale. I can, of course, only speak for myself – but I am all to aware that much of my own interaction is with my fellow evils in the Keep, and while the bickering and one-upmanship (oh the dubious joys of having a character with a 'god given' superiority complex) are certainly fun, I'm mindful of the fact that the people I should really be causing strife to are over there in that there 'Deep.

Playing as a 'covert' evil I've had some great run-ins and near misses, that could have and may still develop. But as of now they appear to have fallen by the wayside and I can only surmise that this is because they're far too busy with unicorns and demons and all that milarky (and may I just say that it's great to have these plots going on, even if they don't seem to be having an impact on everyone) to really follow-through. I'd like to see the imm-run roleplays using evils as antagonists where viable - or setting both goods and evils after the same goal and having them duke it out.

I would, as has already been stated, love to see the organisations rallying once again – though I'm aware that members of said organisations might be a little thin on the ground at present. I would like to see more 'holy war' with opposing faiths actually crusading against one another. Or, in the case of those sensible enough to follow the One True God, crushing all infidels beneath the heel of their natty spiked boots.

I'm aware that not all goods want to interact with evils, and part of me wonders if that's not because they are in some part worried that we're just going to PK them and then run laughing into the night. I don't know what the case was with evils in the past, but the ones I've seen round and about strike me as responsible players who recognise that RP has to be fun for ALL involved and would much rather bandy insults, threats, political double-talk and whatnot than draw swords. I don't think any of us would be so naïve or conceited to think that we should always win. Even the Cyricists. But we don't want to be good's whipping boys and girls either. Even the Lovites.

I agree that the Keep should not have a 'no goods' policy. I would welcome them, their coin and the opportunity to interact with them – so long as they remember that the respectful tongue is the one that stays in their head and that things in ZK don't work in quite the same way as they do in Waterdeep. ^_^

Would it perhaps be useful to try and shift the focus of evil RP to an more 'neutral' city? I know it'd be hard to prise the Cyricists away from their stronghold but as ZK is, in my understanding, rather dominated by the faith I can see how goodlies and especially those particularly concerned with opposing them, might find the idea of visiting rather unsavoury.

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:05 pm

The guards in ZK will no longer attack good priests and paladins on sight. (after next copyover/crash)

Layna · Post by **Layna** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:14 pm

Just a random thought - would it be possible to get them to issue a warning echo to them - something along the lines of the guards keeping an eye on them while they're in the city?

Daediana · Post by **Daediana** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:28 pm

I personally love the interaction between good and evils... but it tends to be on a one-on-one scale... I started playing Rictinta because she offered me a little bit more creativity... plus I could only sit there and play a goodie for so long... But I think honestly, I don't think we need Imm ran rp's... I think if you guys want big RP's... start gathering forces, announce what's going on a couple weeks in advance so people can get situated and ready, so there is no *bleep*ing about PKs being unfair... I mean I'm slowly working on a huge rp with my evil, and its a lot of fun... I think people need to really just take Rp into their own hands. I was rping in World of Warcraft for a long time, and you didn't find a lot of rpers... just people who were idiots... until I came across a big group of people who created an evil cult, and a false god to worship that didn't follow the Lore, because none of the God's suited us... I'm not saying that you should go out and just pick up an RP with some false God, but create a tribe or something... you don't need a guild house... but a tribe that has a deep hatred for a certain faith or something but is not faithful... just work on something as individuals... because the Imm's cant be there to babysit every rp, I am sure they have lives too... but I also think the Imm's should be a little more open to that sort of thing and not have to put in an application every time you want to get a group of people together to start something... and just as myself... I have heard of a lot of Rp's being put together in game to start battles that will involve a lot of people... so I think there is TONS of evil and good Rp out there I just dont think people are opening themselves to it, because they are afraid of getting killed or something... and another thing that bugs me with people when it comes to good and evil rp is that you see something on someone or a certain way they behave and its automatically assumed they are from the Keep... Its not that I cant defend myself, I mean I have tons of fun picking on Taeron... (sorry hun but you're character is just so entertaining to mess with!) but I think that when you are in the Deep and an evil comes in to sit around and RP a bit, you should welcome it as an Rp and not just lift an eyebrow, mention the Keep and shiver, before returning to your happy little conversations... On Daediana, I mean I have been involved in TONS of evil contact RP... so much that it was getting stressful to keep up with some of it... so I mean... if you want it... its out there... you just have to find it. Sorry if it sounded like I was PMSing... long night

see you all in FK land... *purrs*

Rictinta and Daediana

Tortus · Post by **Tortus** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:31 pm

If there is a warning, I'd suggest it be an OOC one and only visible to the player himself, for various reasons.

One might be that a perfectly good cover could be potentially blown.

Another would be that a regular guard would have no way of determining your alignment, unless of course they have a perpetual detect good spell cast on them.

Layna · Post by **Layna** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:47 pm

@Tortus: Should have clarified - I meant in relation to goodly priests and paladins, who are currently expelled from the Keep in much the same way that undesirable races and Zhents are removed from Waterdeep. ^_^

So the same argument could be said to apply there... But yes - perhaps if it could be linked to the visibility of a holy symbol or something. And I just meant the guards at the gate - not the mobile guards. That wouldn't make it too hard to avoid getting spotted I think.

Actually, on a tangent, would it be viable for a set of 'laws' to be drawn up for the Keep in a similar way to the laws now in place (well... they've ALWAYS been in place, but are now written up) for Waterdeep?

@Daediana: I think the problem there stems from the number of people playing - and with the number of faiths available it would make it unlikely for there to be more than perhaps two of any given faith around. Factor in the fact that plenty of the evils don't like each other, let alone those pesky goods, and it can be quite difficult.

And sometimes (not always of course, we can't expect the imms to be watching our every move - that would be completely unreasonable) imm intervention might be needed to back up something that's IC. But yes, we can certainly drum up some more off our own backs.

(And yes, I've had people accuse me of all sorts! Even following a mad god! Pfft... I ask you!

)

Lathlain · Post by **Lathlain** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:35 pm

Ooh! Good topic! One I hold quite dear, in fact.

I'm definitely of the 'there's not enough Good/Evil roleplay!' camp, and would absolutely LOVE to see some more! There have been a few good examples of player-run initiatives recently, and some of the characters I have encountered with it have been fantastic, both good and evil.

While what Daediana says is true, in that Imm-run roleplay is not necessary to further this, I would dearly love to see some more, to facilitate plots and dynamic alignment-based happenings *steeples fingers* There is an entire Keep-shaped hat of villains to pick from for any storyline, most of whom would jump at the chance to be involved!

Regarding city restrictions, I believe it should work both ways. I'm quite happy for Waterdhavian guardsmen to throw Zhentarim out of the city if that's deemed best, but on the flip-side I see no issue with goodly priests and paladins being warned when they enter Zhentil Keep. In all honesty though, I'd much rather not see either party blocked from either city entirely. Provided everyone's happy to accept the IC implications of their actions, and are willing to accept that they don't stand a chance if it comes to single-handedly battling their way through a city of guardsmen as a result of abusing the hospitality.

What I *would* like to see is a banishment system, a little like the one in Waterdeep, but more actively used/updated for Zhentil Keep, Westgate and Waterdeep. That at least would help sort the unsavoury characters from the flock, and give people a reason not to be allowed in a city!

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:48 pm

Lathlain wrote:Regarding city restrictions, I believe it should work both ways. I'm quite happy for Waterdhavian guardsmen to throw Zhentarim out of the city if that's deemed best, but on the flip-side I see no issue with goodly priests and paladins being warned when they enter Zhentil Keep. In all honesty though, I'd much rather not see either party blocked from either city entirely.

There is actually a big difference between the two.

WD guards throw away people who wear visible symbols of Zhentil Keep.

ZK guards used to throw away people according to their alignment and faiths, two things that are hardly noticeable at a glance.

Nicolya · Post by **Nicolya** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:56 pm

I am always up for more rping, especially between the good and evil. It can only help to flesh out characters, if done correctly. I am not trying to open up any old wounds here, but the first PK I had in FK was rather ... lackluster. There was such a great build up, and you knew that you might die, but then poof. Everyone is eliminated. Steps have been taken to resolve that though.

I say as long as the people are up for the rping, and the consequences, go for it. In the end it helps to create enemies, arch-enemies, and all that fun stuff.

Layna · Post by **Layna** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:15 pm

Dalvyn wrote:
Lathlain wrote:Regarding city restrictions, I believe it should work both ways. I'm quite happy for Waterdhavian guardsmen to throw Zhentarim out of the city if that's deemed best, but on the flip-side I see no issue with goodly priests and paladins being warned when they enter Zhentil Keep. In all honesty though, I'd much rather not see either party blocked from either city entirely.
There is actually a big difference between the two.

WD guards throw away people who wear visible symbols of Zhentil Keep.

ZK guards used to throw away people according to their alignment and faiths, two things that are hardly noticeable at a glance.

Playing devil's advocate here - but if Waterdeep guards can see people who are invis, surely the Keep's guards can detect alignment?

Editing to add: In either case it's a moot point so long as everyone knows what would ICly be expected of them in whatever city they're currently going in. Perhaps this would be something useful to add to the help files, perhaps linking to some basic 'laws' that are in place in each of the major cities in game?