Death in FK

[Acalanthis]

*reports Merriman to the Watch for outraging public decency*

[Zach]

*Lepor looks around seeming a bit sad* 'Has anyone seen Merriman?

[Isolrem]

Ever the devil's advocate... I am generally against the idea of enforcing "taking death seriously" by adding penalty or increasing the difficulty of resurrection.
1. Raising death penalty is tremendously painful if, as mentioned, death occured on an OOC basis, especially in cases where no imm is around to care or one is missing a scheduled RP event.
2. Some people (such as I), when they have short playing time left, tend to play more recklessly. And my intermmitent playing habits means that the next time I log on could be weeks in between. It is already bad to know that I have to sacrifice a lot RL matters in order to log on quickly and before my body could decay. If there is any added difficulty people with less playing time are bound to suffer more.
3. When death occurs in deep dungeons or dragon caves, it already takes often more than a day to organize a party to save you. Increased inconveniences makes it quiet unfeasible.
4. How long does it take in Mithral hall to find someone to preserve bodies and raise them?
5. Although an OOC subject, the game does restart often, a decayed body is pretty much equivalent to loss of all items.
6. People who suggested taking away raising dead in temples note that this takes away from any D&D aspect. Also, there is not nearly enough raise-dead materials in this game to accodomate the amount of deaths. (Not to mention those materials are expensive to the extreme if required to raise the death of every lvl 10 in Undermountain that met an Umber Hulk)
7. There are newbies in the game that may well be in their 30s, but that does not mean they have mastered the methods of roleplay yet, they should be given the chance to learn and not a heavy-handed slap.
8. What happens to every newbie that dies at lvl 11 (as they are almost certain to do), and finds that it takes them at least 3 hrs to get back to life? For them this new system might not be very welcome.
9. This is a game, in games characters die more frequently. It can already be safely said the FK's resurrection system is amongst the toughest of games.

In conclusion while these changes would be welcome to many veteran players (possibly myself, too) it occurs to me to be a turn-off to new comers - even those that are expecting a roleplay-enforced, AD&D oriented game.
There are people who (I pplaud that roleplaying accidentally walking into a water tile and lagging, by slipping into the river and drowning. But then there are people who don't know how to, people who don't have the time to, and people who are hurrying to his admission into his faith. For them the situation might not be so humurous. I do not like to see the attitude of inconveniencing ordinary players on too many occasions when it is, after all, a game for recreational purposes.
I just don't know how to introduce my friends to FK if "oh by the way, be careful not to die, 'cause if you don't have enough people greeted it'll take a few weeks for you to revive"

edit: Any form of increasement in cost of raising seems to defeat the concept of change. Because twinkers and gold-hoards that don't roleplay enough - those we are making these changes against - will always have an easier time paying the gold than an RPer. Personally I've never found the current raise cost a dismissive amount.

[Dalvyn]

1. The only OOC reason for a death is a code glitch, and that does not happen that often (or at least it does not happen often enough that we should base the system on it). Other deaths are IC.

2. Simple enough: if you don't have the time for a possible death, don't do anything dangerous. Stick to safe areas or adventure only with someone who can raise you.

3. Simple enough. Don't go into deep dungeons or dragon caves on your own, but only in a group large enough so that you are sure they will be able to bring you out of there or raise you.

4. If cleric mobs can preserve, or if items can be bought to produce that effect, then you would just need to have someone else online who can get to your corpse. In any case, to be raised by a mob, you also need someone who can get to your corpse and bring it to the mob. Therefore, replacing the mob raising with mob preserving does not hinder or help in any way here.

5. Corpses save over crashes and copyovers, so the fact that the game restarts often (an observation that I do not agree with) does not matter. And, once decayed, the items can disappear because of a crash or if someone stumble upon them. Plus, a system where mobs can preserve corpse (or an item allows that) would make corpses last longer.

6. That's fine. Raise dead and resurrection should not be cheap. And the PC option is still cheaper than the mob one.

[Isolrem]

On the contrary, it takes a lot of effort to organize a party. Even if you are playing at the time when everyone else is (so avg 20 people on line). And you want some help with the ogres in the east. Of these twenty people...
1. The ones you have greeted and can contact
2. The ones that are not busy (and how many just sit around waiting to be called?)
3. The ones that are around your level and would benefit from the adventure.
4. The ones that agree with you and your alignment.
5. The ones that have the time to expend.
All this means that it can take several days of trying to bring a party to any of the less visited spots (as in except Undermountain and some very common monster-bash areas)
No wonder most player that are not around Waterdeep are seen journey alone in the game.

And what about the heroic spirit of "I can take that monstrosity bringing terror to my beloved city", will that ever happen again?

Raising dead is not cheap. Not to give away IC information, but of the two components required for Raise Dead, one is very limited in stock and costs 15 platinums to purchase. The other is worse - as in my 300 hrs of playing my priest has never located a second, and none of my other chars have found any.

Also there are cases when you are in a dungeon without realizing it. I certainly remember my adventuring times when I entered the dragon cave north of Zhentil and died before I realized what happened.

PK situations will be a lot more rare, and there are just some cases when it doesn't make sense when you only stun your enemy, however nice that might be OOC.

Also of note is that the problem that started this discussion - that many people don't RP enough when resurrected - is often caused because people are already playing overtime on their gaming schedules when waiting to be resurrected, and hurry to be away (I know this is the case for me on multiple occasions, and I apologize again to those involved). Proposed changes will not fix that.
I do not think it is stretching it to
say that player base will almost NEVER increase if death penalty was added to so that a strenous roleplay is expected from every newbie that had been killed.

Maybe there are some cases when adding realism defeats some aspect of gameplay. Realistically, death of a charater is a serious matter. But realistically, faith members of the character will send out expeditions to search for him. People that died in wilderness may be recovered by merchants or adventurers and brougth back to town. The watch may look for missing characters, and friendly mobs that the character has helped (on quests perhaps) will help recover corpses.

[Telk]

I think there's one major fact we are missing: This is a game.

Honestly, what happens in a game? You go out have fun, and guess what? You inevitably get killed, tell me a game that you have played and NOT died on?

I disagree strongly with removing raise deads from mobs, first off what if this person plays at a time when very few people are around? Secondly, what if there aren't any priests around, or you don't know any? I think that this is strongly going against the evil characters because they do not have many contacts, however it also hurts good players.

Granted, some people do walk away from raisings like they're nothing. However I've raised quite a few people, and I've never once encountered someone that simply walked off or didn't RP (if they did I'd probably light 'em up ) Now while having MOBs being able to raise doesn't bring about good RP it is after all a game, and trust me, it makes the player of the dead character rest a lot more easy.

Stuff happens, lag happens, you drown, death is just a part of the game, you can't expect it not to happen.

I've lost all of my equipment on one of my characters, and it was by far the worst experience I have ever had on any game I've played. Now you can sit there and tell me that yeah we should remove the MOB's and stuff, but really sometimes you just can't find a priest, and things IRL are clicking together, and you won't be able to get on. So you're telling me that you'd nod your head yes, lose all of your character equipments just so that people can't raise at a mob?

I personally think characters do a very good job at monitoring themselves on abusing mobs, and that imms also do excellent jobs, so why is it a problem? I hope this thread didn't veer off too much from the original idea but yeah, this game isn't fun when you die and lose everything that you have put COUNTLESS hours of your life into so you can enjoy it. Just not fun.

I personally don't think there is a problem with people abusing raisings, if you see it IC, then what are you doing coming here to the forums and complaining about it? Take it to that player, RP with them ICly and deal with it that way, it's what I've always done.

FK doesn't filter through many players, many of the characters stick around. When I first came to FK I was COMPLETELY incompetent on how to RP, what was proper conduct for a MUD, heck when I first joined I didn't even know text based games like this even existed. Point I'm trying to make is that when I was new I made lots of mistakes, but people told me they were wrong and I caught on, so if you tell these people that are acting wrong what they are doing wrong most of the time they'll listen and fall into the groove.

Sorry if my thoughts got jumbled or went off course.

[Zach]

Well said Telk... well said

I would like to continue the fact that it IS a game... and in games... you die... then you come back...

In WoW... you die... loose NOTHING but some EQ dmg and some time... that is IT... unless you use the Ghost in the grave yard

In Diablo 2 LoD: When you die... you loose some Exp... THAT is IT; it goes down a fraction... a little more...

Only thing I know where you can complain is when playing Hardcore in Diablo... once you die... THAT is it... you are dead...

Here in FK... you loose some EQ that you MIGHT not be able to get back... so you won't be some uber cool EQ.... quest items lost... yeah... I know the feeling.... but there are SO many quests out there to be had...

So you lost an uberswordofdoom... get an uberdaggerofdeath...

It IS a game... take it light... have fun... so what if you die... RP it tragic and have fun!
Do something that would make you laugh out loud while having your char remain serious... When you are not enjoying yourself... It makes it harder for others to enjoy that you are RPing with
Yeah I have had my complaints... but it IS a game... so have fun... PLEASE!!!


(i apologize if some of it does not make any since... or even makes your brain hurt...)

[Gregal]

Well after reading all the thoughts I have decided to make a post. Death in FK is taken very lightly, yes it is a game but it is a RP game. After having a talk with another person in the game OOCly, I feel that FK has its great rp chances and other is the hack and slash ooc type. But here is the thing, If you are going to try to solo a area in a hack and slash way and not try to rp and get others to help you. You deserve to loose your stuff in my opinion. No offense but if your stupid enough to do it, then you don't deserve unique stuff. But if you and a group decide to take on a dungeon filled with trolls and undead and one happens to die...then there is always the RP to bring him back, by diety or by priest. Point made end of story....NEXT
Now as far as priests go, I feel that mob priests should be able to preserve the bodies until a PC priest comes along and can raise, or if a diety is feeling generous raise the pc. I also feel there should be rp behind this, a reason why the pc would be raised as to do a task and whatnot. I actually had a great time while on Sephany when I was asked to do a task, granted it was the hardest task in my mind but it was fun anyhow The Imms have great ideas and when they do inact rp it makes the game all that more enjoyable, so give a chance for rp to happen, don't just run to the nearest mob and raise your friend. Cause that is just like every game out there, lets make FK diffrent and set it as a president.

[Isolrem]

<Hardcore FK Character> You have bonus feat "Hero's Luck", when you die, you(r corpse) can not be affected by "Raise Dead"

[Forgoil]

Honestly I think death is fine the way it is. I mean, I play a hopeful of Tempus..what they do is battle..battle kills. And if a person RPing a Tempurian dies..in real life they would want to come back and gloriously serve Tempus again in battle and such.. This is why I take death lightly like I do on Vezain because it happens because of his choice of faith and he willingly comes back to life to serve his Lord all over again. I mean it's not liek we're around to run from a battle or anything so we die if we are overpwered.Thought I'd like to share my thoughts on that.

[Yonna]

I always liked the idea of appearing where you died as a ghost, in which you could walk around and haunt the people you knew in life

[Pascus]

Sorry to bring this thread back up, but I was wondering. When a character dies and gets brought back to life. They can recall all that happened in their death correct? I mean where is the secrecy in this? where is "those deeds done in darkness" or plots supposed to matter when a person can just get raised and be like OH! That character killed me! It kinda defeats the whole "secrecy act"

[Rhytania]

Death in FK has long been one of those things that people treat as minor annoyances. While rp'ed as a serious and grave matter, we all know in the back of minds that yes we will get raised and that yes our belongings will still be intact, ect ect. So death will always be nothing more then a speedbump in your RP, slowing you down for the time it takes to properly be raised and rp then bam back to grinding or camping the market square. So when another PC kills another PC its not that big a deal. You RP your hatred you trade PK's here and there, but in the long run nothing really comes of it. So knowing who your killer was isnt that big a deal. Maybe if death where a bit more costly people would take it more seriously. Alot of things where mentioned in this post, anywhere from loss of stat points, loss of limbs, to my favorite: an increasing chance of permadeath, where each death the chance to not come back grows greater and greater. Imagine how serious people would take death then if they knew that theres a chance my character may not come back to life.

[Kirkus]

I would just like to say that I have always been very afraid of dying. There have been times over past summers where I have meet my doom and there was no one on to help. Literally no one on. That was bone chilling. And a long time ago....

Now I actually think the idea of permadeath is a decent one, but now is not the time for it. I think first we need to develop the lands of the dead to where we can have 'dead adventurers' adventuring around in the afterlife. But we would need a lot of stuff like a dedicated area for each deity and so on.

Stuff like that would give dead pc's stuff to do till the live pc's come up with a reason and an rp to bring them back to life.

[Lathander]

I vote NO on perma-death.

[Pascus]

Perma-Death isn't something I always really liked, we have it on my other mud and when a character of mine dies I feel really bad because its like that is the end of that story. But what about if we make it WAY harder to bring someone back from the dead? I mean its so easy to do it now that maybe there should be different ways to bring them back, after a certain level.
What I would purpose as well is, that once you die you don't really know how you die but you know a location you were around and stuff, but events or people you dont remember. I just always liked the idea a dead man tells no secrets, but here on FK they have the whole scoop and more on your mom.
The second thing I think would be good is that PC's are the only able ones to raise, and the components are VERY RARE! This will make people think about dying and will give the whole "Well the gods gave him another chance to live he must be very lucky."

[Vibius]

Unlike common people in Faerun, adventurers are the kind of people that are more likely to return from the dead, because they are more likely to have things pending that an "average" person and most important, usually an adventurer (or his friends or allies) are likely to have the expensive components used to bring back someone from the dead.

So as long a character wants to return he should be able to do so, of course if there isn't corpse is difficult, but still possible, and if a character wants his death to be final, that is something that should be applied for.

[Telk]

I'd be against removing the raises from the mobs on the game. A long time ago mob priests never used to be able to raise, there was only priests and stuff, this made it almost impossible to get raised if you were an evil, or if you died when no one was online. I don't think people are abusing the mob priests at all, for me personally I've always seen people favor the PC priest over the mob priest to encourage RP. I'm also against making super rare components. I mean this is a game after a while and even though it's a roleplay MUD yea people die and they wanna come back and enjoy the game more.

Ever since I started playing this game I've always feared death tremendously, I mean you can lose all of your character's items, all that stuff you worked really hard for. I don't think death is as flippant as some people say, you still have to find someone you know, then they have to get a party together to find your body then find a priest or get the money to raise you.

[Horace]

I think you should be forced to buy favor with kelemvor. Sacrifice of coin/whatever, to get essentially life points. The higher level you are, and the more life points you have accumulated...the more expensive the next life point will be.

Or, it could be glory based - and we can remove the current glory buy system. And then glory would only be used for renames and junk, plus paying for rezz. That way there is a tangible cost for dieing, instead of just the coin needed to pay the priest.

[Larethiel]

Am I the only one that is okay with the current system? I fail to see most of the problems You die, you can get raised. Nice, all good. Raising is still expensive (component-like) and you suffer as well (experience-like). There are rules how to rp having been dead and been raised I guess, it's known to be a painful process etc. I think if the dead-raisings is propperly rped, it's a good experience for everyone involved. And the raising priest could even charge the raised one with a task to show his/her gratefulness to the raiser's deity. F.e. a priest of Corellon could give away a task that is connected with the elven view of death, a priest of Cyric could give away a task more suiting to his/her malicious views.

I don't know how to feel about having to buy favour/lifepoints or spend glory on something to get means to return to life if the character dies. A lot of new players die constantly when exploring the mud and older players die, too. It happens but I just think many will not have the glory/coin/biscuits to pay for those things. I believe it's frustrating to create a character with an idea in mind or just to have fun and then having to completely junk him/her due to lacking means to get back from the dead.

I second Lathander's no to perma-death. Just for the records

Thanks