Infractions and Consequences

Tavik · Post by **Tavik** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 9:46 am

One thing I would like to suggest here is, perhaps, a type of jury system. I got thinking about how different the perspectives between Lathander and Mask were and figured that maybe it would be better to have a vote among different people on what is done.

Furthermore, the many of the IMMs have been here a lot longer than most players and as such, have a better knowlege of how things are and should be. I think a jury of players that DON'T know the workings of the system and such might offer a perspective such as "Huh, actually...I would have made the same mistake just because I didn't know any better." or ""I've seen this player RP and I really doubt they would intentionally do such and such." or "I've heard this player bragging about doing this before."

Basically, what I'm getting at is that the average player sees things too and may be useful in determining suitable punishments. Also, by chosing random players (though I would suggest it not be manditory) you also gain unbiased input from those who have never interacted with the player.

I know this sound a lot like a trial, and in some senses that is what I am suggestiong. However, this need not take the time a regular trial would. Basically, and issue would be brought up. An IMM contacts maybe five or six players completely at random (which can easily be done by bringing up a list of all players on at the moment and rolling a dice or two and counting that many names down). Those players are temporarily brought elsewhere and presented with the circumstances of the infraction. The the players discuss briefly and vote on a punishment. Seems easy enough to me.

I would also make note that a jury type decision will not always be needed e.g. Multiplying infractions, OOC harrasment, minor slap-on-the-wrist infractions, etc. Also, I think the list being developed here be used as a semi-rigid guideline as to options for punishments being voted on. This would avoid a too lenient punishment being bestowed upon a major, first time infraction. While the player may have made an honest mistake, at the same time you would not want them or others thinking they can get away with major infractions just because it was their "first mistake."

Again, this is just a suggestion and nothing more. Lathander did say he wanted other's ideas on the subject and this allows for that input beyond just this forum.

There's my two cents.

Lathander · Post by **Lathander** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 3:43 pm

I am against a jury system, frankly it would take too long to coordinate for each thing. As for voting, we do vote on things that have PC deletion or account destruction as a consequence. Sometimes we do it for strikes as well. The logs of what an imm observed along with any conversations between imm and player are posted for imms to see and a vote is taken.

As for the school IP thing...We had an instance where a player was banned (his home IP) but he continued to play from school. The school had seveal players and accounts. When we discovered this, we destroyed his account. He continued to play by simply creating new accounts because there were so many coming in from the school IP. We eventually just banned the whole school IP, sadly losing many players who had done nothing wrong. We have had successful school-use programs in the past, but those were directly monitored by a teacher in the schools' computer labs.

Grafghur · Post by **Grafghur** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 5:22 pm

For the university thing and for the case you mentioned, would it not be possible to block all expect those who already have a verified account?

Basically, not allowing any new account to be created from that IP range unless they apply for it and the account is pre-created for them.

I realise some coding is necessary for this, but it would be a good solution. I'd hate to lose players due to one person's action.

Tavik · Post by **Tavik** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 7:04 pm

I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that what you mentioned, Grafghur, can already be done. A similar instance occurred at my school about 5 years ago. The school IP was banned, and I sent in an app to get it unbanned. The IMMs okay'd it, but said that there would be a new player ban which didn't allow for any new players to be created. Now, this was before the account system was put in, so things may have changed.

Please correct me if anything I've said above is wrong. If not, then what Grafghur brings up, might be a good way to deal with school IPs.

Lathander · Post by **Lathander** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 7:50 pm

You are correct Tavik, we can place what is called a newbie ban. It allows existing accounts to be played but does not allow new accounts to be created. That too is an option.

I know I've contributed to the discussion myself and want to back off of any more talk of HOW consequences are decided upon or infractions investigated. I respectfully ask, to myself included, that we get back to discussing the specific consequences of the infractions.

I know that the first offense consequences seem severe. They may be, and we may change them. However, except under special circumstances (e.g. it is a new player just learning) I'd rather not have a "first offense" consequence, a "second offense consequence" and so on. To me, if the rules and the consequences for breaking those rules are cleary stated and someone chooses to break a rule, that person has also chosen to accept the consequence. By posting and making it official, we can most eliminate the "I didn't know I couldn't do THAT excuse." I understand that some of you look at the list and think that you may have committed one or more of the offenses and not know that it was wrong. By posting the list officially that can't happen - well, it can't happen if people READ it.

I've kind of rethought my position and it is less "verbal warning the first time and more severe later on." I think if the rules are clearly stated and you choose to break them, you did it on purpose. [All encompassing 'you' here, not pointing any fingers]. Now we might need subcategories of intent, which become MUCH harder to prove/classify. You shove a mob out of the way so you can fight a different mob - not good but not terrible. You shove a mob out of the way so you can access trainers and merchants that your PC shouldn't be able to access - worse in my opinion and deserving of harsher punishment.

BUT!!! I am not the only one on the mud. If our community comes to the consensus that it is better to "warn" the first time and increase the severity of consequence with repeat infractions, I'll honor it.

Soooo, let's go from there. Would it be more efficient for me to break this thread into a bunch of different ones where each infraction gets its own discussion and narrow the consequense from there? After a time or reasonable debate I could post a poll on each, we all vote, and then I close the thread. Once all threads are closed, I'll post a complete list based on the poll results. Thoughts?

Mariela · Post by **Mariela** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 7:34 am

I woudn't put up all the rules in different threads at once.

I'd only put up one or two at a time, let discussion reign, and then take them down and complile the results.

it will be easier on the compiler and easier on the rset of our brains to not be staying at twenty new threads nad having to come up with a reason for all of them.

Ceara · Post by **Ceara** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 1:28 pm

I think one thing the is very important, once everything is decided on and written up, that a link be put in both the motd and perhaps the newbie school, with a note that urges them to read these infractions and consequences and a warning that if they break them, not knowing won't be an excuse.
That way they know where exactly to find them, if they don't read them it's their own fault and can't say they weren't warned. It really needs to be someplace visable and all of the rules etc.. should be on the same pages. If a new rule is made it should be added to that page.
Players especially new ones, shouldn't need to look through hundreds of posts to find out if something new was decided on or not, they should be able to look at the rules. Perhaps also something letting people know a new one was added.

Lerytha · Post by **Lerytha** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 1:46 pm

From the point of view of letting people be updated, as long as there is a link to the correct helpfile, the large team of people responsible for keeping the helpfiles up-to-date and relevant can make sure that any changes to the rules are put in the helpfile. So making sure new developments can be seen won't be an issue, I think.

I agree as well that having a link to the helpfile in the newbie school would be good. Like a mob saying, "OOCly, we STRONGLY recommend you read 'help rules'" as Ceara suggested.

Lathander · Post by **Lathander** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 3:25 pm

Posting them as a sticky in the "Game Policies" is the plan as well as having them in a required read type format in the newbie temple.

Rhytania · Post by **Rhytania** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 5:09 pm

Sorry for the late chiming in, just got back from a trip and wanted to make one suggestion to the riddle discussion. I hate riddles in real life as most of them can be ambiguous depending on a persons background and viewpoints. I can argue just about any answer to a riddle as being the right one as only a very few are worded well enough in the game to only have one single answer that is right. I am not in any means suggesting we get rid of them but perhaps tweaking them just a bit so as if you dont answer them correctly, you can work for some hints to help you along the way, and a wrong answer should not be the instakill of the quest. I know a person who failed a riddle for a very popular skill trainer because he accidently mispelled it and didnt catch it in time. Or the many times I have been racking my brain to figure out what "answer" the mob wants. Heres my justification, Just becuase my character has an intelligence score of 18 doesnt mean I do. Im all about blurring the line between roleplaying and roll playing, but there are some instances where there should be more than one right answer or path, especially to things that some people just do not have the background that others, their characters, or the builder who coded the riddles would have.

Oghma · Post by **Oghma** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 5:19 pm

Not to get sidetracked, but riddle quests vary as per how they are set and written by the creator. Some will have clues and options some will be very specific and rely on obscure knowledge or information gleaned from another source encountered icly. Some will allow you to try again or allow alternative answers, some will not, and end with failure. I reccomend taking it ic no matter how high int is, you do your best, it is not the end of the world, it is just a quest. Riddle help though in my opinion should be something well documented like a pk, I'm not adverse to asking someone 9or bribing them icly) to leave a room on my pc's when I am doing a quest, out of worry I will spoil it for them or they for me. It is up to perspective, how much you need something or how much you can accept as a life lesson icly if you fail.

Shabanna · Post by **Shabanna** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 11:04 pm

Sometimes people really have to think about the answer to a riddle...and sometimes people answer the riddle quests quickly because it takes only 20 seconds to type in " What is the answer to x riddle?" and send it to all the buddies x player is chatting oocly with

( and then there is always google...)

I think there is no way to prove a person is cheating on something like a riddle quest cause their friends will never turn them in. We have that as an issue...If you turn people in for something like asking for the answer to a riddle...you suddenly become a social pariah and labled "narc." I believe that people tend to get quiet when they see an infraction... because in truth, it is almost more of a punishment for people to threaten not to play with you...than to take the chance and say nothing. it is afterall an RP mud. If people refuse to play with you... there is nothing left to do.

So what we get is a few people who will pass around answers easily... some people who follow the rules but... will not turn the cheaters in... and in truth... no punishment handed out for said...cheating. And there ARE those... who are very ugly and ooc about RP if they suspect someone of turning them in...

"The Banna"

Mariela · Post by **Mariela** » Sat Jan 13, 2007 5:08 am

Honestly, I am amused how much focus is being put on cheating and especially since we keep looking at the riddle quests as a point of "cheating"...

I really don't see or understand what the problem with getting extra help for that sort of thing is. What is the difference in asking your buddy via tells in Waterdeep about something you are doing in Zazzespur...

"Hey man.. I'm working on this project for this Rich Girl... is it a bad idea to say yes when she asks me to roll her hair for her before bed? I mean, I am thinking yes, but what do you think?"

And I really dont' get the problem if that person you are speaking to hints or flat out tells you the answer.

What is the difference between going on a riddle quest vs a quest where you round up everyone and your uncle from the market square and go kill something? This is a mental kill. Why not bring back up?

I know of a t least one quest where the "right" answer gets you jumped by the mob. So having back up on a mental quest is not such a bad idea.

Heck, dont' go anywhere alone! You hear that you new players! Bring a friend! It's like the scouts!

I mean, I get rampant cheating. I do. I have seen people roam around looking for the greatest toy at the end of the day. However, I just... I jsut go out and run into quests randomly. React to them. And if they end up being a riddle, I sit there blankly and try to figure them out or dial a friend, so to speak. So what is wrong with that exactly?

Lathander · Post by **Lathander** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:09 pm

I'm locking this topic but opening different ones focusin on each, individual infraction. I'll copy over any discussion relevant to the individual topic threads so they do not have to be repeated. We'll do them in batches of three. I agree that doing them all at once might be overwhelming, but doing them one at a time will take forever.