Sex - IC discussions of rape

[Lathander]

Please give your thoughts on the reasonableness of the consequence associated with the following infraction. Be sure to read the "Preliminary Information" thread before posting.

Sex:
Type 1 - IC discussions of rape Punish and Verbal Warning

Declaration:
Please read HELP RAPE before posting to this thread. Our policy on roleplaying rape is not up for discussion. Roleplaying the act of rape is not allowed on FK and applications for such roleplay will be denied. This is not the topic under discussion in this thread.

Some Background:
There have been instances where rape rp did occur, and other instances where it was "said" to have occured. There have been times when rape has been considered part of a player's history though it never took place as an actual rp in the game. Some races have an inherent disposition toward having such backgrounds (half-drow, half-orc). Some players are uncomfortable with discussing this topic or overhearing others discussing the topic. It is current FK policy to disallow the discussion of rape within the game, with the listed consequence being excercised. Your thoughts on the continuation, removal and/or modification of this policy is requested.

[Lathander]

(Dalvyn)

This one does not make much sense to me. Forcing a rape roleplay on someone might be punishable, but I see no reason to ban rape as a discussion topic.

(Jaenoic)

I disagree, Dalvyn. Rape is a very sensitive issue for some, if not many, and we have younger players who play too. I imagine talking about it makes many players uncomfortable, so I feel that it's better to just avoid it all together.

(Dalvyn)

Some players might also consider torture a very sensitive issue. Or what about murder? Oh... and what about ceremonies during which followers of evil god sacrifice a corpse? Or ... simply, what about just killing someone to get his/her belongings?

I think all players should be given a chance to get out of a roleplay involving a rape, just as I think that all players should be given a chance to get out of a pkill roleplay. But I do not think that rape should be branded a taboo topic, just the other possibly delicate subjects cited above should not be branded taboo. Everyone should still be free to leave a roleplay or a discussion involving them though.

(Shabanna)

I was going to just sit out of this thread but I felt like after reading this I needed to comment on the topic of rape. As an adult who was assaulted as a young woman... I feel I am more sensitive to this topic than some but I have to agree with Dalvyn that it perhaps should not be a taboo subject. But, for reasons perhaps different than his.

Let me first say, I do not think... that having a game filled with rapists is Dalvyn's intent. But...I think allowing it as a possibility ( perhaps by special app?) might be good. My reason is simple... I have been at the receiving end of an RP that for the char ICLY would have been called "date" rape. OOC it was a frustrating situation... RPing late... no Imms noone on question...and trusting another player...not to break that rule. in reality it did not turn out that way and I wound up logging off really angry and disturbed just a few months after I had begun playing and made the character. With no way to log and no proof... the other player could not be turned in ( though a complaint was filed.) As a result, ICLy I had to find a way to RP the future choices of my character in a way that did not break the rules and it was a sad situation.

Where am I going with this? I believe that if a character does this to another... there need to be IC consequences other than...the victim having to justify their behavior around the other player of course ideally if it is against the rules the person violating the rules should be punished accordingly but... the reality is that does not always happen :p because its hard to turn someone in without a witness or a log. It is one players word against anothers.

that said...

I feel like if I had had the choice to apply to deal with this person ICly would have!! (Even if I had to apply and lay my plans out on the line.) Also, I feel that if the "help sex" regulations were REALLY well defined and detailed the RP of Rape might not end up as being as graphic an RP as one thinks? ...and indeed with those regulations more detailed and more strictly enforced it might be less of a risk that some character would overstep their bounds with another and it "turn into " a rape RP ( if that makes sense) And as Dalvyn said someone should be able to walk away from that RP ( even if it is someone just hearing about it.. who choses not to... they can simply walk away from the RP and have that choice!)

Personally, I feel if it is allowed it should be CLOSELY regulated by application... so that we didn't have an onslaught of serial rapists or something And I agree that a player should be able to say STOP IT... period. When that RP happend to me it was incredibly unsettling, as I did not expect it because it is not allowed and trusted that the other player would obey the rules. If had been a possibility I might have been more prepared for the RP and stopped it before it happened.

I agree with Dalvyn that the game in general has a lot of topics that can be found unsettling, torture, death, killing , stealing, alternative lifestyles, all of these things might not be the best subject matter for a young kid... but then I am a parent who would no more allow my 15 year old on this game than I would fly lol >.< (I have 3 kids...and I monitor their internet like a hawk... lol) I think simply making it an app only RP would restrict the possiblity of it becoming epidemic? (much like the reason for alt lifestye apps) Also... perhaps the age of the player would be part of determining approval or not?

(Enig)

I realise that these posts are about the nature of punishments for various infractions, and not really about whether or not x or y should be considered breaches of the rules, but all the same I'd like to say a few words on the subject; I'll try to be brief, however.

Whether we agree with the distinction or not, there is definitely a difference in the perceived 'wrongness' of a plain old physical attack, even to the degree of torture, than there is with any sort of a sexual assault; the latter is generally considered more heinous and 'evil' in the grand scheme of things, or at least the more taboo of the two. We needn't look any further than the posting to see the evidence of this fact; if it wasn't true to at least some degree, we wouldn't probably be having this discussion now.

In a world where magical healing is as close as the nearest cleric with a holy symbol, physical damage is almost trivial; not entirely, but the trauma associated with injuries like broken bones and mangled flesh is somewhat mitigated when these things can be washed away with a prayer and a hope. On the other hand, sexual assault is something that can affect a character and influence their behaviour and decisions years into their future, and herein lies the heart of the problem. Any RP involving this subject tends to either be such a serious thing that the character cannot help but be heavily influenced by it, or else it's brushed aside and the gravity of the crime (in an IC and OOC sense, as it were) is sort of lightened in an unpleasant way (you could make the same argument for IC torture in this case, and I'd probably agree, mind you).

That being said, and assuming for the sake of argument that the RPed assault is not brushed over, the victim character will tend to be altered strongly by it, and as a result, the people they interact with will be altered and affected by it, too. It's a nice enough idea to say, "If you don't want to become involved in an RP about rape, just don't.", but once you've got one victim, others will naturally become involved via innocent interaction. Once it starts, it's impossible to contain, as it were, and the more instances of it taking place ICly, the greater the chance of having just the wrong person/people involved and the entire situation turning into a great big OOC mess.

Anyways, as things stand, the help file states that it's categorically against the rules to RP any scenes involving rape, and frankly, I don't think there's any reason to argue against that. Considering the wide range of alternative avenues for RP, I honestly cannot think of any situation that would demand this form of RP and leave no other viable options open. That said, why even leave the option open, when there's such potential for nastiness and hard feelings because of it?

(Scylere)

Sorry, if I don't understand, but are we seriously considering making the option of RAPE rp available?

My opinion is that we shouldn't be describing anything of the sort, whether it be self-mutilation, torture, rape, sexual encounters, etc. Even battles shouldn't be too explicit. There's just no reason for such detail.

I question the person's mind that feels they have to role play that kind of sickness into a game. It's a game and a game supposed to be available to kids - descriptions of any of the things I mentioned above can be highly disturbing, traumatizing, mental scarring, twisting, and completely detrimental to a child's developement and social life.

Forgive me if I've misunderstood the intention here.

(Balek)

I'd like to point out that Dalvyn never advocated rape roleplay. He did say that IC discussion of rape should not be a punishable without regard to circumstance. Threat of rape or forcing a rape RP on someone should be punished. In all honesty, rape is a topic I would rather stay away from completely. I do recognize however that there are people who would apply for this kind of thing. From a moral standpoint I don't mind if two people agree that they want to participate in a rape roleplay. As far as I'm concerned if it occurs between two consenting adults of legal age then we are not obliged to prevent the roleplay from going forward. However I strongly feel that there would need to be very well thought out and exceptionally well justified applications from all parties involved and there would need to be absolute certainty that no one involved had any reservations at all.

All this aside, I feel like we might want to ban rape roleplays in general strictly from a practical legal point of view. Take in mind that I am not an attorney and at no time should this be construed as sound legal advice. If we get into the business of approving rapes it seems to me that someone could return at a later date with accusations that we in fact facilitated and approved sexual harassment. I'm not sure of the legal climate in other countries but in America our society has grown to be exceptionally litigious. I would hate to see the game's admins endangered by this kind of threat. I like to think that anyone who applies for a roleplay of this kind would be secure in his or her choice, but there are invariably people who change their minds. Even worse, there are people (certainly here in America and likely everywhere else) who would do this kind of thing just to sue and make some money. We've got some great people playing here, but we don't know everyone and we can't predict the future.

I apologize if this has gotten a bit long winded, somewhat weighty and maybe a little depressing. I just want to make sure we're taking everything into account with a topic as delicate as this one.

(Kregor)

The point that was being gotten to was there should be leeway... not to feel free to RP rape and rape someone... but not to ban the discussion ICly of the offense. The case in point, dealt with a player who crossed the line and forced themself ICly upon another char. The character who was the recipient of this wasn't a willing party in it, but, fact of the matter, it happened, and since the victim uses a mac, she can't log the text, so... it becomes a he said, she said situation (though for the record, it was my wife who was forced into the RP, and I saw it, over her shoulder on her telnet screen)

Anyway... so in the end... she of course, wants nothing to do, OOCly OR ICly with said character/player, and she can't even ICly explain why?

1) He should have been punished, not because you need a special rule, but because it amounts to harassment to force someone into a sexual RP they didn't consent to.

2) She should be able to have an IC reason to shun said character, and said character should have the IC consequence of being branded with the crime he committed.

End of story.

As is stands, the total taboo of discussing rape means she has to just ignore him, (which could be accused as avoiding RP) and cannot tell anyone WHY she won't ICly associate with him.

(Enaria)

Also, I forgot who said it, but I agree if we can do all this 'evil' stuff, like just killing, murder, torture, sacraficing, someone couldn't bring up the topic of rape? I mean people like anything, can avoid it... Though that sort of, contradicts the avoiding RP rule, which I think people should be allowed to avoid any RP that makes them uncomfortable, for any reason. Even if it's ridiculous, I know I don't want anyone to be uncomfortable for any reason.

(Enig)

I think I can understand your position, Kregor, but at the same time I'm not sure that allowing for the IC discussion of this kind of RP is the best way to solve this. It just seems to me that it would legitimize the implied sort of RP that lead to the situation with Shabanna's player, and that wouldn't make things better so much as worse.

On the other hand, I think we can all pretty much agree that the situation above indicates a certain problem; however, maybe it could be handled differently than suggested. So, if I can offer an alternative, maybe the rule that needs a bit of laxing isn't so much the one about rape as it is the one about avoiding RP. It seems to me that Shabanna's player should have felt free to either turn the other player around with osays, or failing that, push on the quit button at any point during the scene. I can only assume that she didn't feel this way because she didn't want to be accused of avoiding RP, and when it gets to that point, it seems there's a problem; after all, where's the line drawn? Torture and explicitly violent RP would evoke the same sort of response, and demand the same, and this would seem to help out in that avenue, too.

Anyways, it's just a suggestion, so take of it what you will, but it seems to me that a few extra cases of 'He said/She said' relating to RP dodging are preferable to a few extra cases of the same relating to darker subjects.

(Lerytha)

On the rape issue. I think applying for a rape situation is really rather redundant. I don't think many people wake up one day and think "I'm going to roleplay a rape, today". Nor do I think that our MUD should be one where characters (male or female) should be afraid of being attacked sexually by another character. So I think the only sensible way to approach this is with Dalvyn's suggestion. Let any person who is uncomfortable with a sex-based RP be given the right to "osay Can we stop this, if that's okay? I don't feel comfortable with this". The person who is asked to stop should not feel victimised there. They were just pushing the limits of something and as long as they listen to the OOC NO, everyone can continue to be friends and RP together. Its when the OOC NO is ignored, that the rules should come into play.

Maybe in that case, a use of the "punish" command and an OOC warning.
If the player involved continues to ignore another OOC NO request, perhaps a strike. If the player a third time ignores another OOC NO request (thereby bringing something similar to sexual harrasment), then I say ban them.

To sum up that part: allow most sexual encounters, but tie in a OOC NO clause as outlined above.

[Lathander]

Reposting Lerytha's last thoughts here to keep all comments in correct order:

Hmm... what about the following?

1. Mention of "neccessary" rape in background - PERMISSABLE?

i.e, halfdrow or halforc say, "I was raped", or even characters say "It was as good as rape" or even just use the word "rape"?

2. Mention "unneccessary" rape?/intimate descriptions of rape? - VERBAL WARNING?

i.e, RPing that rape occurred during downtimes. Basically, not on the MUD, but you leave the Square one day, long on three days later and roleplay a rape that happened to you? Or graphic descriptions of rape? Justification behind this being that there doesn't need to be intimate descriptions of rape. Some may say "Well, there are in-depth descriptions of torture", but to be honest, there are, and I'd say keep them. Rape is something MANY people can experience/be affected by in real life. Quite often we do not encounter orcs and are not tortured by them.

3. ... I think there should be a level here where there is VERBAL WARNING and PUNISH.

4. Actual ROLEPLAY of a rape - PUNISH/STRIKE/BAN depending on severity and the affect it had on the other person? Also about their response, etc? i.e, the other person wasn't that bothered by it, and was willing to go along with it before they realised it was going "that way" and aren't worried/sickened... that means PUNISH. Other person tried to stop it but was actively code-wise trapped in the room (hold spell, etc) so they could not leave and is affected, disturbed and sickened by it - BAN.

My thoughts.
(Lerytha)

[Lathander]

I'd like to keep these discussions very narrow, focusing on the specific topic at hand. I know that this one seems to overlap but it doesn't. Roleplaying of rape is punishable and that will be another thread to discuss the specific punishment. This one needs to center only on in-game conversations of rape.

[Raona]

Given that the person on the other side of the screen may be a rape survivor, I would favor keeping the policy as I currently understand it: the word or concept of rape is simply not to be used in the game, in any capacity. Those old enough to understand can deduce for themselves how a half-orc or half-drow comes about. Infractions should be treated with consideration, of course, but they should nonetheless be infractions. I'd rather not gag free speech, but I also think that very simple, very clear rules work best, and on this issue I don't think much is lost to the game or freedom by making the topic completely taboo.

[Lukon]

I would like to offer the counter-point that discussion of rape should be allowed for a simple reason. It is a terrible, terrible thing, in real life and in game. But so is theft, murder, torture, corruption of the soul, disease.

I am an advocate of speaking about rape, because it goes too quiet, too often. There is a taboo that casts victims into a shadow world that can make them afraid to speak up about their experiences. Bombarded with 'you can't prove it' and pity and shame and 'just put it behind you', people end up suffering in silence, and I find that shameful to society as a whole.

I may be wrong, and I apologize if I offend, but I think the matters NEEDS discussion...lest it keep happening, with no investigation, no justice, and no explanations.

But that's an issue that's bigger than FK. If it needs to be put aside for the sake of fun, I also understand. I just don't like it.

[Talos]

It is a terrible, terrible thing, in real life and in game. But so is theft, murder, torture, corruption of the soul, disease.

Yes, but these things come with the territory in almost every Roleplaying Game on the market. Yet, at the same time, how many RPGs have you played that use or mention rape? (Example: Final Fantasy Series) Many staple series have been around for years and have never used the idea of rape to try and 'enrich' their plot. I feel we have no need of it, either. As the helpfile states, bringing rape onto a game that is supposed to be fun is trivializing the issue far too much.

Bombarded with 'you can't prove it' and pity and shame and 'just put it behind you', people end up suffering in silence, and I find that shameful to society as a whole.

FK is not real life, we are not here to act as an awareness group, but we also make very clear that we don't condone many of the acts performed on the game. This is why we originally, and I still do, feel that it is senseless to bring something so horrible into a game that has had no need for it, and still does not.

Finally, I would like to make a point on eloquence. As was mentioned earlier, people can oft time assume where half-drow/half-orcs came from; therefore, if this has already been RPed, it is safe to assume that people have found a more eloquent way to explain that their mother and father were not a 'loving couple', rather than simply, and crudely, blurt, "Yes, my mother was raped."

Simply my thoughts.

[Mele]

When is the last time you went out and bought a video game for a console that asked you to go out and rape six women? If you can name for me three games that do this, then I will say hey, let's allow rape to be rp'able. Yes. Violence, theft, murder, torture etc are all things most people find immoral irl. But is that going to stop people from shooting aliens/fantasy creatures/people etc on their console games.. no. But do you see rape in these every day games? No...

What I'm REALLY dying to know here, is how does someone RP rape. Smote smashes you over the head so that everything fades to black ?


I'm honestly a bit astounded this is even a discussion. People can't even handle a pk without getting in a huff ooc about it, you think that people are going to roleplay RAPE properly? Pardon me if I'm coming off rude, but I am seriously shocked by this entire discussion.

[Tavik]

My opinion: Rape is 110% non-permissable RP. That isn't the topic here though. I bring it up because if it doesn't happen, it cannot be discussed. If someone absolutely must explain how a half-orc/drow comes about, then I see no problem with breifly mentioning that it was a result of rape, but it really doesn't need to go any further than that. If you need reason to avoid someone because of a rape, simply say that your character was raped and leave it at that. If you need an IC reason to not continue the discussion, simply claim that it is too tramatic to speak further on it.

I've made this arguement before in other threads and I'll make it here again. This is a game. It is meant to be fun. Most people don't find rape or discussion of it fun. Then why do it? If you absolutely must discuss a rape, then I would suggest that it be manditory that you ask all involved parties OOC for permission to do so.

[Jaenoic]

Mele, as Lathander said, the RP and act of rape is completely, without discussion not allowed. He wanted this thread to be about the simple discussion and mentioning of the fact.

I am still of the opinion that it should not be allowed. Rape is set apart from theft and murder in this game in that theft is a rather relative thing(lawful versus chaotic, it's not always a "bad" thing) and murder is rarely, if ever, graphicly described.(The worst is a fantasy "your slash tears a goblin's heart out" which I highly doubt could happen in real life). Torture is different, I think, and in fact I don't believe it has a place in FK either. But that's not for this discussion. Disease is a commonday occurance, in fact it's quite natural and it is argued that disease it nature's way of keeping populations in check.(As coldly objective as that is) As for corruption of the soul, when was the last time you saw a person irl be turned into a lich because of his thirst for power... It's a fantasy game, and those kind of redemption/corruption themes are fun, it's about living the lives of epic, heroic characters because working 9-5 everyday just ain't the same.

But rape is different. It changes, ruins lives. It's *not* fun. While I see the merit in Lukon's points, I still feel that we lose nothing by just getting rid of it all together.

[Mariela]

I think Lukon's point is vaild however.
Socially when you close doors against topics, you are basically pretending they do not exist in thef irst place, and thus, by denying they exist you allow them to go on and on and on.

However, that being said, it is a rated what PG-13 game site? If the discussion of rape occurs in a disney channel teen story or in a PG-13 movie, I would say, go for it. If it is relevant to the story.

The story. Not your sicko desire for attention, drama queens.

The idea of a half whatever trying to decide if they side with what side of their make up, and maybe having 1 discussion on how they feel about the idea of their parents not having that loving relationship... I have no problem with that. It is not graphic, it's about how they feel with the -idea- of the rape. Why would they know details? And it's the only legit way I can see the conversation coming up really without having details that do not need to be discussed in a site that is rated pg -13.

Do I think in that instance that they should be banned? No. It was for a story reason and in theory there will be forward progession and they will never mention it in that sort of harsh gritty reality again. If it keeps coming up like a drama queen... "My mommy never loved me cause my daddy bleh.... insert grossness here." then ban their socks off. That is just too much.

And in that vein if someone is threatening to do explict things to another character in general as "pusishment" I think that is also one of those on the borderline of pg 13 ness.

I think appropriate punishments are:
Punishment 1: Da Verbal Warning. (Excuse me, uh.. you are being gross.)
And if that warning doesn't work...

Punishment 2: A banishment of that particular character. Maybe for a temporary length of time, maybe permanately. I think it would depend on the severity of the crime after the warning goes down. Or if anyone submits a complaint about that character. I also say that it depends on the nature of the second offense that you might step completely over this step and go to Punishment three without Punishment two. In this case, the scale should be severly slidable.

Punishment 3: Down with the flames of your account. Cause if you are up on this level, obviously you should know better and understand what PG 13 means.

I really think that if we are using a "strike" to moniter the punishments, that in this case, because so many seem to not want to even -think- about rape that it's an unappealable thing. It's one of those situations that if it comes up, and you are warned, you don't neccisarily get a second warning. That's up to the IMM's to the nature of your first offence.

And if you even -think- your character might want to address rape in any fashion, you are to apply for it before you speak. It could be a super dramatic thing, but cover your ideas with the IMM's first before they come up. No exceptions.

I am almost of the opinion that you sign off on something with the IM's before playing a half breed of races that are obviously the product of rape saying your intentions of explaining your racial profile if it comes up. Just a simple application saying, "I am playing a half drow.. and I do not plan on bringing it up." or "I am playing a half drow and at some point I want him to get into a thought provoking conversation with soneoen about his heritage which MIGHT cover him giving his opinion about his own existance... not details of a rape. Just what he feels about the subject."

And if the IM's say no.. you don't get to mention squat.

[Shabanna]

*sigh*

1. I do not think we should encourage or "allow" Rape RP...
2. Just like all the other rules that are broken on this game... So is this one.
3. how does ot happen???
LIKE THIS...
player A & player B have an IC relationship.
Player A ICLY breaks it off with player B
Player B decides they want to continure to RP with player A
Player A goes along and RPs with player B rather than IC "avoidance"
player A ends up in a room where there is noone else but player B
Player B RPs some big emotional plea to player A...
Player A is ICly underwhelmed...
Player B in ONE LOOONG, very descriptive, very obscene smote details an act which in REAL LIFE would have player B tossed in jail.
Player A reads said smote and is like O.O and frantically tries to get an answer on the question channel... but, it is late and there is clearly no one there.. or no one paying attention...
Player B continues to RP ... while Player A is continuing to attempt to get someone to answer on Q...
the sceen scrolls... because player A is on telnet... there is no proof... no one answers...
Player A has been raped folks...
Sorry Mele.. you asked ...I answered.

How do I know this??? cause it happened to ME 2 years ago or so after I had just begun playing regularly. IF it had not been for Oghma...agreeing to speak with me in my incredible frustration... I would have told FK to bite me long ago...because I had to continue to RP with this person without ANY recourse. (Incidentally... said Player B has since recieved a strike for Sexual RP AFTER that happened ... So clearly a repeat offender.)

I feel that a person who is victimized this way IC should have the chance to use it as an IC reason not to associate so that we do not get people saying " that player refuses to rp...." ( Which I was also accused of)

Just because you can not personally fathom someone doing this.. does not mean it does not happen. I could not PROVE it happened. and no one answered when I tried to get help through the appropriate means Could I have just logged off ? YEP... and I did when I saw that I was not going to get help... and that player B would not be punished for their actions.

I agree with Raona in that there ARE rape survivors who play ( I am one of them IRL) It was incredibly upsetting to me to have to deal with it on the game with no recourse for punishment either ICly or OOCLy!! I also agree with Lukon that ignoring the problem will not make it go away.

NO... we should not allow people to ICLY rape someone!! but...I am sorry... it happens... and I think... to just say we cant even mention it...might not be the best plan. Which is why I originally mentioned an application... NOT for the IC RAPIST ( who shoud be punshed for breaking the rules) but the person who is the IC VICTIM. ( doesn't matter if it is on a game or IRL... your a victim!)

I think we can not police everything everyone does The imms are already overworked and understaffed so... to be honest, I'm not sure of the solution other than to say this : Why is it we have to set up someone who is a victim of and IC CRIME to end up being further victimized? Punish the heck out of people who overstep that line ICly ( of course.. then we have to prove it and .. im sorry... sadly... not everyone has the ability to save a log!!!) and allow the people who complain of said crime to submit an app to RP IC consequences...and have the logs pulled etc. before anything is done.

It upsets me a little that people are naive about some of the rules that are being broken... I think it is time we all stopped thinking that every player on this game obeys the rules it will make it much easier to determine the kind of punishment to be given if we all understand that the punishments are being set up because... people BREAK the rules!!! Just cause *you* would not rape someone does not mean that Joe Wackadoo will not (sorry... i dont care if I offend Joe Wackadoo >.< )as much as I like a lot of the players here...I have bumped into some who DO break the rules not everyone is Mr. niceguy

sorry if I am winded and not following the topic as set forth. I will refrain from further posting as I have managed to say what I feel.

Regards,
Shabanna

[Apillini]

I don't think that asking that rape not be discussed in game is asking to turn a blind eye to the actual event, and it certainly isn't fair to point fingers at the people suggesting it and say "you just don't want to think about it". I don't think anyone wants to pretend the topic doesn't exist; it seems to me that this isn't what is going on here. Let me quote the helpfile a second:

The game adminstrators feel that
such RP may be harmful to the players as well as being
a gross and senseless trivilization of such a horrific crime.

That is the problem here. It is not ignoring the topic. It is keeping it out of a place where it certainly does not belong - A GAME, where people enact these things for AMUSEMENT. It's, as the helpfile says, a trivialisation of a crime that can destroy a person's life utterly. Jaenoic stated in previous posts something else I agree with: the other components in the game that are traumatising out of game are, well, different, I suppose, as most of them are unrealistic. Some diseases I would not expect to see RPed in FK, either, and I would be upset to see them trivialised so. I expect others would be, also, and perhaps that the person RPing such even be banned, if it came to that.

I agree, further, with Lukon in that it should not be a taboo topic . . . but, ugh. This is hard for me to tackle without seeming contradictory. I don't think we're making it taboo if we're asking people not to bring it into the game. The fact that there's such discussion of it outside of the game shows that it isn't taboo, and that no one is ignoring the existence of the crime, and it's good to see this kind of discussion being had with no hard feelings toward anyone. The fact that there is even a 'help rape' at all shows that it isn't taboo. But . . . I think that it should be left out of the game. Simply put. (Another but here) But, I do think that if someone has been ICly wronged, as in Shabanna's instance, there should be a certain amount of justice. I realise I probably just contradicted myself, so let me explain. I don't think it should be DEALT with awkwardly. Not all people will follow the rules, like Shabanna said, so when a rule like this is broken it does need to be dealt with. There should be absolutely no need for that to be tolerated ICly or OOCly.

I don't think that players should have to send in an application for every half drow or orc in existence. If it is assumed, then it can be left at that, I think. From an OOC perspective, I do have to wonder how the PC would know the mother/father was raped. But then, that is an entire issue altogether. In a roundabout way, I think I'm touching the "eloquence" bit that Talos mentioned a few posts earlier.

[Rhytania]

player A & player B have an IC relationship.
Player A ICLY breaks it off with player B
Player B decides they want to continure to RP with player A
Player A goes along and RPs with player B rather than IC "avoidance"
player A ends up in a room where there is noone else but player B
Player B RPs some big emotional plea to player A...
Player A is ICly underwhelmed...
Player B in ONE LOOONG, very descriptive, very obscene smote details an act which in REAL LIFE would have player B tossed in jail.
Player A reads said smote and is like O.O and frantically tries to get an answer on the question channel... but, it is late and there is clearly no one there.. or no one paying attention...
Player B continues to RP ... while Player A is continuing to attempt to get someone to answer on Q...
the sceen scrolls... because player A is on telnet... there is no proof... no one answers...
Player A has been raped folks...

Not to empower or sympathize with Player B by any means but the log should have looked like this:

player A & player B have an IC relationship.
Player A ICLY breaks it off with player B
Player B decides they want to continure to RP with player A
Player A goes along and RPs with player B rather than IC "avoidance"
player A ends up in a room where there is noone else but player B
Player B RPs some big emotional plea to player A...
Player A is ICly underwhelmed...
Player B in ONE LOOONG, very descriptive, very obscene smote details an act which in REAL LIFE would have player B tossed in jail.
Player A reads said smote and is like O.O and frantically tries to get an answer on the question channel... but, it is late and there is clearly no one there.. or no one paying attention...
Player A copies or makes a screenshot (which can still be done in those abominations known as macs)
Player A QUITS.

Problem solved until an Imm does come online and you can discuss it and make arrangements to show him the screenshot. Honestly why would you sit there and accept that sort of abuse for the sake of being "IC"? As soon as the act was commited the ball is now in your court. Its not like in real life where you are faced with life or death.

[Mele]

I'm sorry, but this is NOT real life. This is TEXT. And if you have enough gusto to argue these points here, you sure have enough gusto to argue if that scenario happens IC. To type north. To type quit. To type osay Hey I don't like where this is going. Here is the big difference between real life rape and text rape. You are not helpless on FK. You have the ability to quit, to osay, to leave to press your power button. There is never, ever a need to frantically answer something on question if something serious is happening to you in your rp. People are very capable of hearing and understanding "Hi there! I'm sorry no one else is available right now, but I'm kind of stuck in something can you give me just a quick moment?" No one will ever tell you no.

Believe me, I understand your feeling of this situation. When I was brand new here, someone smoted fading to black with me. I osaid asking what it was. They told me to read help sex. I logged off, and never rp'ed with the person again. To me that never equated to IC rape. It was, in my opinion, ooc disgustingness. Had I not been so new, I would have emailed complaints. But this was all new to me still then. If they player had complained about it, tough sh--cough.. Seriously. People do not have the RIGHT to be rp'ed with here. They have the opportunity. No one has any right to complain that people don't rp with them. If you make a character people dislike, expect that people won't want to be around you since they can't enjoy it. Plain and simple.

Because of surviors like you, Shabanna, is why I feel this way. It is so disrespectful to replay something like that. Never should you ever have to be inclined to remember those actions while playing a game that is supposed to be fun, stress free, and for most people a 'take away' from rl. It bothers me so that anyone would ever feel like because some jerk smoted something disgusting that THEY were the ones stuck. The jerk is the only person who should be stuck in that situation. And frankly in my opinion they should be stuck with a big fat strike.

It angers me to think people would be allowed to take such advantage of someone in text because they are such a kind person. This should never happen, and this is why no player should be forced to rp rape because some jerk took advantage of their kindness.

[Lukon]

I would like to add, again, that actual rape RP is NOT what I'm defending. The game has a rating for a reason, and that is NOT an appropriate RP for this type of game.

However, the discussion of the event, as it relates to a character's backstory, or as an implied consequence of certain species relations, I think is a valid RP if delicately handled with the right PCs. If someone's just making a boo-hoo pity RP, then that's not just inappropriate: it's poor RP. But if that discussion is deeply IC and a character motivator, it kind of bothers me that the RP would be locked away.

Application only seems fine to me. Keeping discussion TASTEFUL seems fine to me. But making it a punishable offense to even discuss rape seems wrong to me.

And, once again, actually RPing a rape...no. no. A hundred times, no! If this were a game that was specifically DISTURBING in some content, I could understand. But FK is a happier place than that.

[Talos]

I understand where you're coming from, Lukon, but the key flaw in your plan is the point on "valid RP if delicately handled with the right PCs." Yes, I agree that if you were able to find two people mature enough, they may both be able to effectively converse about it and not be affected. Here is the problem: while in the midst of this conversation, the PC of a 11-year old player (very possible) walks into the bar you're in and catches a piece of the conversation that deeply bothers them, if for no other reason than that that one piece is all they've heard (or care to hear). They then leave, upset by what they've seen. Or, a much more practical situation: A rogue PC sees two people walk into a bar or what have you and tails them, hidden, for some innocent spying, until they see the conversation.

Now yes, some might say "Well, you should just leave/quit" but here is my beef: in years of playing, I've never once had to quit as a direct effect because of another player's action(s), why then should anyone ELSE have to?

In Shabanna's case, one can't blame her for her decision to wait: it is perfectly natural to try and get ahold of an Imm to stop something like that, and when panicked, sometimes we simply keep a one track mind, and keep hope for the first solution we think of.

No one in Forgotten Kingdoms should have to -leave the game- because of the actions of another player, nor should they have to worry about walking in on a conversation that will emotionally bother them. Privacy is something that simply cannot be controlled or ensured, and that is why I do not believe it is safe to allow such discussion to take place. As much as you might take measures to control the environment to make it "private", you have absolutely no guarantee that it is.

[Mele]

No, no one should HAVE to leave the game. But I would much rather see someone log off and send in a complaint if they cannot reach an imm/ are too timid to osay/are too timid to walk off then say they were raped IC.

[Enaria]

I know you really wanted us to stick to the topic, but... This ties in, as well to other things. What if there was a command that you could use (and it would be logged) that would tell the person whoever it was directed to, that their RP is making you feel very uncomfortable? It wouldn't be a room social, but something like a tell, without personalized text. Unless you could add an extra command at the end if you wanted to be specific about something, so they didn't think the whole RP... Just a random idea. Probably not even a good one, but it's all I can think of to add.

[Mariela]

Enaria--
Do not sell your idea short. It is a wonderful idea. How practical of an implimentation it would be, is a different matter all together.