Sex - IC discussions of rape

[Dalvyn]

It might just be cultural differences, but I do not get it. I really try though.

What is so hard in osay-ing that the roleplay is going too far for you and that you would like it stopped?

I remember a few years ago, when there were all those letters filled with white powder (some of which were poison, others being jokes of poor taste). I forgot what led to it really, but I started a roleplay about a pox spreading around Waterdeep. A player o-said that the roleplay was making him (or her, I forgot) uncomfortable and I simply put a quick end to it (the roleplay). That's it.

Should we consider all roleplays related to poisoning powders and pox and other delicate matters as taboo because some might take offense at it? Should imms be told that no, it is not fine to run this kind of roleplay because some might not want to have anything to do?

What some suggest above is this: forbid anyone to talk ICly about rape. From my end, that means that rape could not be part of the backstory of any roleplay. That means that, if I want a mobile to have a background that might make it look like a real person, I cannot use rape anywhere in the story. That means that, if I want to make a bad guy look really cruel and completely oblivious of other people's feelings, I cannot use rape as part of his story anymore. Add to that that torture might offuscate some too, and we remove it too from the list of options. I, for one, do not like to see the imms' (or the players') creativity restricted like that.

Do I want to create some sort of rape roleplay where all traumatic details are smoted in long? Heck no. Do I want to be able to mention rape (and torture and all the other events that might be part of the backstory of a roleplay) openly? Yes. Just as much as I want to be able to mention friendship, betrayal, love, murder, thefts, and all the other life events that can make mobiles realistic personae. That is why I am opposed to any rule that would ban "rape" as a theme from discussions.

Now that the question/ask channel is well manned, isn't it sufficient to suggest to people that, if they are offended by a roleplay, they should (a) osay it and, if it does not work, (b) question/ask to report the problem?

[Alaudrien]

I totally agree on this. To ban it altogether would stifle and limit roleplays. Some people I think just have trouble saying they feel uncomfortable because emotions are tricky things. I think showing when it comes up in an rp and someone feels uncomfortable with it..show them it is not a problem to osay and say please stop it. Perhaps ask others if any rp's go down what most would call taboo roads to ask in an osay are you okay with this type of rp before we carry on? So they might alter it to another path that is okay with all parties involved?

[Enaria]

What is so hard in osay-ing that the roleplay is going too far for you and that you would like it stopped?

I guess I was just thinking it would kind of be telling them privatley, if in a case there were others in the room. I know I would feel bad embarssing someone if they just didn't know they would make someone feel akward and/or uncomfortable saying something. And what you said also could refer to any of these situations. Maybe just a cultural difference. And it sounded a little more official than an otell, because it would be logged, or something. Plus, I was referring to more serious things than... the person having a bad phobia something the other person was talking about, which is why it would be logged I was thinking. So people don't abuse it?

[Rhytania]

Just to bounce off of Enaria, but what about an in game function that when activated will take a log for like 15 - 20 mins and record it for the imms, so any player interactions, smotes, and says can be seen by the imms when they return. Of course the basis of activating this function should be only in the direst of needs and if we stress the importtance of not using lightly, then it may be a good thing to have in game. Imms cant be everywhere all of the time, but this will allow them to at least see whats going on when they are needed the most.

[Kelemvor]

I have no strong opinion either way on this debate, as with most things it will most often come down to an individual's personal feelings on the matter as to how they react. Culture, religion, age, upbringing... too many points of view to accomodate in a single ruling.

My only concern comes from an admin point of view. Sanctions after the fact for rule-breaking are most easily dealt with if there is a very clear rule in place.

The notion that a player can leave a roleplay they are uncomfortable with implies that any roleplay is acceptable up to the point where someone says they are unhapppy or uncomfortable.

For this particular subject, I'd ask that any Help File or rule put in place has very clearly worded guidance. This should detail exactly what we expect from anyone incorporating an instance of rape in their background or in an IC discussion.

I have seen too many examples of players using 'shock tactics' to dramatise their characters to be confident that allowing free expression of these topics won't lead to concerns or complaints in the future.

[Talos]

So the issue then, if people cannot simply be eloquent about the topic, becomes a simple question of: Will this topic do more harm than good in FK? Personally, I say it will do more harm, because I see this as being an instance where an inch will be given and a mile will be taken. That is not to say that all will do such, not at all; however, how many times, if this topic were allowed, should we have to crush some bombastic story about how so-and-so PC or so-and-so PC's mother was raped to call it "too many times", before the subject simply comes up again in debate?

[Lathander]

Thank you all for your input on this delicate topic. While we can't possibly all agree 100% on these things, we can discuss them in a way that benefits us all. It appears to me that all of the major points have been made and discussed, so I am closing this thread. Though I recognize that opinions on this particular subject are heartfelt and strong, I ask that no further discussions be posted here.

As with other threads in this category, I may need to run more than one poll and am unable to do that all at once. After the first poll has been up long enough for reasonable voting, and depending on the result, I will decide whether a second poll is needed.

Please only vote once per PLAYER.

[Aliatris]

I would like to see this aspect inm controlled to avoid it's abuse.

This aspect although real will no give nothing to the RP if it is not roleplayed adequately. I also would let handle this aspect to people that I know that he or she can handle such serious aspect.

[Lathander]

Thank you for your votes. The vast majority of you chose...

2. Allow the discussion/conversation with limits: No description of the act; an "eloquent" backstory or other reasonable cause for the discussion; discussion MUST cease if a witness declares him/herself to be OOC offended.

I am now posting a second poll asking for a vote on what the first time infraction consequence should be for violating this rule.

Please remember, none of these are set in stone, even after the votes are concluded. We imms need to review all of the results and make sure that we think they are both reasonable and enforceable.

[Rhianon]

This subject should not have even been brought up. There is NO room on this game in my opinion for such a thing. If this is to become an adult RP game then it should be noted as such. And no one under the age of 21 should be allowed to play. How this whole thing got started is beyond me. What were you all thinking!!!

[Mariela]

The issue came up because no matter how much we do not like it, some things do come up wether they are unintentional or not in the game. And to be perfectly honest, sometimes it comes from people who are under the age of 21. I have seen some strange ideas come flying out of people who's players are known to me to be 14 years old!

That's the kind of world we live in. The fact it comes up for discussion and what we should do when it DOES come up is on the table because it HAS come up in game and the IMMs have had to deal with it.

I do not like it any more than you, concidering the rating of the game. But again, that is the world in which we live. One would think that this discussion and the setting down of soild rules about the subject such as rape, murder, violence, and so forth will solidify that it is a fantasy game good for those 13 and up and secure the PG-13 rating of the mud. It's a technicality and something that is good to go through with everyone and hear everyone's thoughts no matter how scewed they are in one hand or another.

That way everyone is on the same page.

Don't be offended. Take a deep breath and rest easy in the fact that once the rule and the law has been laid down.. it's down. You won't have to meander though another discussion like this again. (In theory!)

[Oghma]

This subject should not have even been brought up. There is NO room on this game in my opinion for such a thing. If this is to become an adult RP game then it should be noted as such. And no one under the age of 21 should be allowed to play. How this whole thing got started is beyond me. What were you all thinking!!!

The reason this subject was brought up, as Mariella explains was to discuss how it can be approached and dealt with, it was brought out to the general users of this mud to ask how they felt it should be approached and they were given the chance to state their opinions, fears and ideas. Then the playerbase was given the chance to vote on it. This way a decision can be reached and judged appropriately. In my opinion, this will never, ever be an adult rp game, instead steps are being taken to aid us in situations that would be quagmire otherwise.

[Mele]

I'm a little upset here that someone who posted her opinion (what I got from what she posted was, why is this even being brought up, it should stay how it is and rape should not be in the game) was kind of just patted on the head and told to breathe and move on.. She is someone who has been with FK for a very long time, and I personally value her opinion just as much as anyone else who has stated their opinion in this four page thread. I know it's a bit hard to understand people in text sometimes and you may not have gotten what she meant there, but generally if you tell someone not to be offended, and to take a deep breath, that could make for a bit of friction.

Also, FK is very much so NOT the world we live in. Thank god. Then I would have no escape from the true world we live in. Not every aspect of this game needs to be like RL. I'd very much like to keep to hearing about very unhappy things like rape, terrorism, serial killings, bombings, suicides etc in my real world. You want to see this things, the news is always a convience store away.

[Mariela]

Obviously you misinterpreted my point, Mele. Shame but it happens.

It wasn't about bouncing Rhianon for her not wanting to talk about this period. I -got- her point. It was filed and labelled in the back of my mind and I agree with her point. It's a kid friendly zone, why the snot are we talking about this on a board where they obviously can read it here.

I was explaining a -reason- to wanting to discuss it. So if some idiot comes running through FK being a jerk, we all know what is going to be done about it. It had nothing to do with Rhianon personally. I personally find her opinion very to the point and facinating.

And the ONLY reason why I gave the explaination was this:

It is called an emoticon for a reason. -EMOTE-
She was obviously angry/pissy about the entire topic and I wanted to reassure her that the topic wasn't about DOING it. It was about what happens SHOULD it come up.

I apologise to Rhianon if it seemed like I was singling her out or disreguarding her opinion. I did not. Trust me.

[Grafghur]

In my opinion, mentioning rape in game should not be banned, but the player using the word (or act) should really consider his actions.

What if an orc was to threaten a females during a rp: 'Me will take ouz back to da village ta make da little ones" and left it at that. How would you consider this action? Appropriate, too much but okay, or just okay?

Saying this, I've witness torture acts of taking burning someone's skin off, description of the smell, welts etc. That alone can give someone nightmares.

My thoughts on all of this, is respect the opinion of the other player, no matter what the 'action' might be. If they feel uncomfortable, then stop.

My other opinion, is to only let mature players to play evil characters. Since most of these 'acts' are from evil RP's.

[Lathander]

The reason this topic, and every other one to come in this particular forum, is being discussed is that we imms are trying very hard to eliminate any Us vs Them mentality. We want the FK community to play the game as a group of people playing by the same rules. By inlvolving both players and imms alike in the rules-making process, we can arrive at a collection of commonly accepted parameters of play. It would be quite easy for the imms to create the rules and lay down the law. I do not think that is a productive approach. We expect there will be FEWER transgressions, LESS offensive rp and MORE fun by everyone if everyone has at least a say in the creation of the system.

[Tavik]

Voted 7 for warning with too graphic (first offense probably means they don't know they are going overboard imho)being a warning and strike for continuing after being asked to stop OOC.

[Lathander]

Locking this topic for the time being. We are considering an entirely different system that may/may not replace strikes. Once that is defined or discarded I'll reopen the rules discussions.