Cheating - Asking for OOC/IC help with riddles

[Lathander]

Please give your thoughts on the reasonableness of the consequence associated with the following infraction. Be sure to read the "Preliminary Information" thread before posting.

Cheating:
Type 2 - Asking for OOC or IC help in solving riddle-type quests Strike

Some Background:
Builders spend a considerable amount of time designing and coding quests. Sometimes riddles are used to make them challenging. It is disrespectful to these builders to circumvent the intent of their quests. Imms have observed players using IC and OOC methods to complete the riddle portion of several quests. The degree of observed assistance varies widely. Examples of what imms have observed include the following:

• 1) PCs in the same room who have not completed the quest working together IC to solve the riddle.
  2) PCs in the same room who HAVE completed the quest giving vague hints in an IC manner toward the solving of the riddle.
  3) PCs in the same room openly using osay indicating "I know this one!"
  4) PCs in different rooms doing all of the above via TELL or OTELL

We do not linger on IM channels to see if riddle information is exchanged, though we suspect it has occurred from time to time.

[Lathander]

(Dalvyn)

+ failure of the quest

(Mask)

Why is there a problem with requesting IC help? And how would we police OOC requests for help ie, over IM or email?

(Dalvyn)

I don't see how you could realistically ask for IC help with a riddle quest.

Someone asks you a riddle and awaits for an answer. Don't you think he'll declare that you failed it if he sees you busy feverishly chatting to your amulet of communication and contacting all those you know to get the answer?

There's no perfect code-based solution to emulate that.

(Moloch)

Then how can you police the ones who are sitting at their computer screens truly thinking upon the riddle, attempting to come up with the answer on their own? When given the riddles, I do not think the riddlemaster ever gives a time restriction, so how would you know WHAT the player is doing behind their screen? Just thoughts.

(Dalvyn)

It will never be possible to control everything and make sure that everybody is playing in a fair way.

There are two possible reactions to that:
1) Let's not control anything then, since we cannot control everything.
2) Let's control/check on what we can then.

Note that riddle quests have been slowly removed from the game (or at least, their rewards have been), for that very reason.

(Mariela)

Personally,

I loathe riddle quests. I hate guessing games in real life. Psychological puzzles, sure. Character interactions, sure. Social dynamics, awesome. Discussing philosophy wicked cool.

I loathe riddles. You have no idea.
The first time I ran into that one riddle quest, there was no preparation for running into it. There was nothing in the pre end of the quest that said that the end would be a riddle quest. OOCly I will flat out admit that I looked out the door at the person who was with me while I was running around so we could RP while I was doing this "fetch" quest and telled them ICLY, "He wants me to answer some riddles. This is going to take awhile."

And then I proceeded to freak out oocly. I am bad at answering them. I have to spend a great deal fo time thinking of them and THEN on top of that, you gotta figure out how the MOB wants you to phrase them.

I am all for monitering cheating, but there is a point where the monitering is getting ridiculous. Timing riddles? Are you kidding me? And I agree with the one above, why wouldnt' with the instantaneous nature of the amulets someone "Call a friend" if they are stuck? I mean, heck, many of us tell one another when we are bored IC. If you know your buddy is a crazy man, he might understand the riddle better than you.

And on TOP of that, so many of us are super brain washed not to go off and do ANY quest without at least two friends. So are you saying now that we are not allowed to take others with us on quests cause it might be misinterpreted as "cheating?"

I think there are some who are abusing the quests. However, I think some are doing a WONDERFUL job of noting that some character may need a bit of help and going, "Hey. I know this place wher ethey need your help... you gotta go talk to them. I'll take you, but you gotta work your mojo on them to let them help you." And then offering some hints if you are flustered or irritated.

And would that mean that if someone went screaming into the Square, "HELP!" and you helped them with a quest you had no idea existed, would it be cheating if you went back later with your own posse and took care of it? That'd kinda suck. Cause what if it was a really fun quest? (Summerfield comes to mind. Come on. Who isnt staring at that thing going, "HOW DOES THIS WORK!!!")

Like I said, I am all for monitering of cheating/abuse of the quests. But timing things, and so forth, makes things so much harder to play with AND in a very basic sense, not all of us read particulary speedy or at the same speed. Sometimes even I, a professional reader *coughs* has to look back up and go, "Oh.. duh. Missed that. "

(Dalvyn)

If you do not like some kinds of quests... well, simply do not do them.

Many players (and I'm not singling you out here) think that quests are just minor inconveniences on the path to the reward and that they have to "win" and get the reward one way or another. This is not true... failing to complete a quest is as good as completing it, because both adds to the character's background and history.

If your character does not like riddles... then just do not have him/her do riddle-like quests.

Similarly, if you can't answer a riddle, then you simply fail the riddle quest. There is nothing inherently wrong with that.

Now, trying to find out the answers by discussing the riddles with people who are in the same room and have not done this riddle quest yet is fine. What is not fine is calling to other people, or worse to just try and get the answers from someone who has already completed the quest.

(Mariela)

My point was mostly that in some quests, you don't know what they are until you run into them.

At the end of that one, it's just there, bam!
So naturally I wanted to do it. I had already done All that other work.

(Grafghur)

As for riddles quest, I have to agree with Dalvyn. If you don't like them, no need to do them considering there are a million other quest around. My personal fav was a huge riddle/game quest that at the end had a reward that I couldn't use. But the really fun part for me was that quest (my fav by far). So it's only fair that they should be kept for those who do enjoy such things. Though I have to admin, it is nearly impossible to police.

(Rhytania)

Sorry for the late chiming in, just got back from a trip and wanted to make one suggestion to the riddle discussion. I hate riddles in real life as most of them can be ambiguous depending on a persons background and viewpoints. I can argue just about any answer to a riddle as being the right one as only a very few are worded well enough in the game to only have one single answer that is right. I am not in any means suggesting we get rid of them but perhaps tweaking them just a bit so as if you dont answer them correctly, you can work for some hints to help you along the way, and a wrong answer should not be the instakill of the quest. I know a person who failed a riddle for a very popular skill trainer because he accidently mispelled it and didnt catch it in time. Or the many times I have been racking my brain to figure out what "answer" the mob wants. Heres my justification, Just becuase my character has an intelligence score of 18 doesnt mean I do. Im all about blurring the line between roleplaying and roll playing, but there are some instances where there should be more than one right answer or path, especially to things that some people just do not have the background that others, their characters, or the builder who coded the riddles would have.

(Oghma)

Not to get sidetracked, but riddle quests vary as per how they are set and written by the creator. Some will have clues and options some will be very specific and rely on obscure knowledge or information gleaned from another source encountered icly. Some will allow you to try again or allow alternative answers, some will not, and end with failure. I reccomend taking it ic no matter how high int is, you do your best, it is not the end of the world, it is just a quest. Riddle help though in my opinion should be something well documented like a pk, I'm not adverse to asking someone 9or bribing them icly) to leave a room on my pc's when I am doing a quest, out of worry I will spoil it for them or they for me. It is up to perspective, how much you need something or how much you can accept as a life lesson icly if you fail.

(Shabanna)

Sometimes people really have to think about the answer to a riddle...and sometimes people answer the riddle quests quickly because it takes only 20 seconds to type in " What is the answer to x riddle?" and send it to all the buddies x player is chatting oocly with ( and then there is always google...)


I think there is no way to prove a person is cheating on something like a riddle quest cause their friends will never turn them in. We have that as an issue...If you turn people in for something like asking for the answer to a riddle...you suddenly become a social pariah and labled "narc." I believe that people tend to get quiet when they see an infraction... because in truth, it is almost more of a punishment for people to threaten not to play with you...than to take the chance and say nothing. it is afterall an RP mud. If people refuse to play with you... there is nothing left to do.

So what we get is a few people who will pass around answers easily... some people who follow the rules but... will not turn the cheaters in... and in truth... no punishment handed out for said...cheating. And there ARE those... who are very ugly and ooc about RP if they suspect someone of turning them in...

(Mariela)

Honestly, I am amused how much focus is being put on cheating and especially since we keep looking at the riddle quests as a point of "cheating"...


I really don't see or understand what the problem with getting extra help for that sort of thing is. What is the difference in asking your buddy via tells in Waterdeep about something you are doing in Zazzespur...

"Hey man.. I'm working on this project for this Rich Girl... is it a bad idea to say yes when she asks me to roll her hair for her before bed? I mean, I am thinking yes, but what do you think?"

And I really dont' get the problem if that person you are speaking to hints or flat out tells you the answer.

What is the difference between going on a riddle quest vs a quest where you round up everyone and your uncle from the market square and go kill something? This is a mental kill. Why not bring back up?

I know of a t least one quest where the "right" answer gets you jumped by the mob. So having back up on a mental quest is not such a bad idea. Heck, dont' go anywhere alone! You hear that you new players! Bring a friend! It's like the scouts!

I mean, I get rampant cheating. I do. I have seen people roam around looking for the greatest toy at the end of the day. However, I just... I jsut go out and run into quests randomly. React to them. And if they end up being a riddle, I sit there blankly and try to figure them out or dial a friend, so to speak. So what is wrong with that exactly?

[Raona]

I want to be clear that this answer applies only to the RIDDLE aspect of any quest. That should be done completely solo. 1,2,3, and 4 are all problematic. I think taking away the quest reward from the person doing the hinting/giving away (the hinter) would be most appropos for the first offense. Recidivism should offer a steep penalty curve, however.

[Scylere]

Look at it this way:

If I do a quest with one character, I will forever know how to complete the quest. Therefore, I can never do that quest again with other characters. This applies to every type of quest. There's no difference in me completing that same quest with a different character, than aiding someone else with the same quest.

We're encouraged to ask for help ICly with everything, and now it's said that we can't ask for help ICly with certain quests. I can only see this as being detrimental to the game. If it happens ICly and everyone enjoys the rp, then where's the problem? Are we supposed to be worried that someone else received a quest item?

[Tavik]

I have to agree with Scylere on this one. Before I even got to that post I was thinking about exactly what was brought up. One thing I would add to the arguement is that if a someone is asked for help on a riddle they've already encountered, it would not make sense ICly for that character to NOT know the answer.

One more thing I'd like to bring up is that by outlawing IC means to get help on these quests you outlaw ALL means for getting help. That means that more people will be inclined to seek out OOC help than just failing the quest. By keeping the IC option open, you can punish getting OOC help and offer them no arguement by simply reminding them that the IC option was available, as well as helping (in a sense) people stay IC.

Hopefully that made sense.

[Mariela]

Cheating:
Type 2 - Asking for OOC or IC help in solving riddle-type quests Strike

Some Background:
Builders spend a considerable amount of time designing and coding quests. Sometimes riddles are used to make them challenging. It is disrespectful to these builders to circumvent the intent of their quests. Imms have observed players using IC and OOC methods to complete the riddle portion of several quests. The degree of observed assistance varies widely. Examples of what imms have observed include the following:

I give GREAT respect for the buildings. THey do a marvelous job. The chat is so impressive and awesome. Everytime I run through a quest it's so much fun to read all the little descriptions.. pull on the objects, trying to figure out every little secret. And some of them are super hard and you just want to tear out your hair... but they are still awesome. I would NEVER not give the builders their kudos.

HOWEVER...

1) PCs in the same room who have not completed the quest working together IC to solve the riddle.

Why is this cheating? Why is having someone in the room with you, helping you come up with an answer IC cheating? We are beaten down into the dirt never to do quests alone. And yet, this is cheating? We want to RP while we are doing quests, spread the idea of RP and yet we are restricted from having IC help? So what, are we not allowed to even discuss quests period next?

2) PCs in the same room who HAVE completed the quest giving vague hints in an IC manner toward the solving of the riddle.

Again... and I agre with the above statements of the last two posts. This would mean basically we could only do a quest once per character. Where as this is an entertaining notion.. not really fun. I have the memory of a blonde gopher and I may remember wher eto start the quest but the actual things to do to finish it.. *LAUGH* I do not see how my presence in teh room, probably telling someone innocently "Try that door there.." is cheating when I did not remember that door was there in the first place. Wether I did the quest already or not. And keeping it all completely IC.

3) PCs in the same room openly using osay indicating "I know this one!"

OKay. That is just creepy and wrong. Why aren't you talking IC! Bad boys and girls. And smacks for going for the pretty toy at the end. It's different if you pick up someone IC and say, "Dude have you seen this twisted stairway" And take some new character IC to a quest to get them through it so they have a sense of accomplishment... letting them lead the way after starting it.. but dude.... saying I know this one... horrible. Keep it IC. Couch it in vagues and let the person who's never done the quest the freedom to figure i tout. Read the room descriptions, and enjoy it!

4) PCs in different rooms doing all of the above via TELL or OTELL
I think IC tells of, "Oh my Stars Frank.. does make sense to you.. give me a hint." Is cool.

OOC flat out answers, less cool and bad.

Honesty time. I've been so frustrated at a quest and had to ask someone oocly if it was broken or I was missing something. Things break on me. And sometimes I have recieved the "Duh" answer oocly.
"Moron Look under the rock."
"You can pick things up??"

Sometimes it is a completely brain glitch on the players part and sometimes it is just a player checking on a glitch. I don't think you should be punished for honestly asking if something is broken. It does happen. (Lord knows I have made some pretty awesome glitches on FK. My "s' description was a rather good one and completely accidental. And let's not go into handing quest objects back in the wrong order and crashing the quest. Sorry about that!)

I think if you can keep it IC and the IC is enough that the person working on the quest is getting hints and not the answer, it's not cheating. It's another brain working just as hard as the orginal one to come up with way to script out hints that will help but still ultimately leave it up to the first person to figure out. What's worse, is that it introduces the element that if you asked an evil person for help.. they could lie to you. Heck a good person could lie to you and send you teh wrong answer. That's the danger for asking for help. And that's a risk you run on any quest.. if you invite some people along, will they help you or hinder you. (A lot of times, I swear its hinderance. It's easier to just die at times. *grins*)

So I think the first two IC things are something you shouldn't be banned for. If you go too far in giving hints, maybe a warning for giving away too much. A slap on the wrist. If it's still blantant then maybe concider more extreme lessons in how to give hints. But super severe punishment.. nah. It's IC.

The ooc stuff... totally. Unless you are trying to verify with someone that quest is broken, totally not cool. I also think it's uncool if you do a quest with one character, and then in the next twenty four to fourty eight hours do the quest again with another character. You are obviously going after the good stuff.

So.. in that light...

Cheating IC Providing Too Much Information
Punishment 1 Warning
Punishment 2 Up to the IM's based upon the crime details. But is concidered a soft crime unless it's Waaaaay too rampant of warning to that individual.
Potential Harsh Punishments Auto failing on quests for both individuals


Cheating OOC Providing information on Quests to another
Punishment 1 Warning
Punishment 2 Removal of ill gotten gains, auto failure of quest for both characters in question.
Punishment 3 ?

I am not sure how extreme a punishment three should be. I mean.. it has so many levels of complexity cause it is coming oocly. It should be an account punishment and not a character specific one. I dunno.



I have no idea how to address the using outside means to solve riddles like riddle books and google. You can't really police it. You can time the quests, but is that really fair to someone who literally sits there and figures it out? And what about those people who step back from it and decide to thinka bout it and go do something else before going back? (I have many open quests JUST for that reason... what the heck am I supposed to do... nevermind. Screw it. Do it later. ) I think timing the quests would punish those of us who are just doing the quest a section at a time.

[Raona]

I understand where others are coming from on this, and I long felt the same way; that was not only my initial response, but it is also my gut instinct, until I remember a conversation I had that changed my mind: What I remembered was that, ICly, no robot MOB is going to give the same quest, over and over, asking the same riddle, over and over. It is an OOC limitation that the same quest riddle comes up again and again in the game (or even the same quest, for that matter). If it were possible to make a different riddle for each PC (or at least a battery of riddles, so there isn't great chance of duplication), I'd be all for IC help. But the OOC reality confines what's fair, in a sense. The closest we can get to IC realism is that the riddle should be novel to whomever deals with it. I'm only for outlawing (1) because then the player NOT doing the quest doesn't get that experience when they go back to do it themselves. I'd like to allow (1), but experience suggests that if the riddle is obvious to one player (or they just "get it" first), and blurt out the answer, then the other player(s) don't get the experience/chance to figure out the riddle. But that's an OOC consideration. Perhaps, ICly, (1) is fine. (Even if each player then goes back and does the quest.) But that's really the only spot that I think it doesn't ruin a key (intended) IC aspect of a riddle quest, the riddle. I just wanted to add that to my reply above, as I don't think I explained my rationale very well in light of what others have subsequently said.

[Lathander]

Quick clarification: The itemized list at the top of the page does not state that each of those instances is an example of cheating. It only indicates what behaviors we have observed. Please don't put words in our mouths. We are asking that YOU discuss and debate which examples, if any, should be considered cheating and what consequences should accompany those that are deemed to be so.

[Selveem]

Quick clarification: The itemized list at the top of the page does not state that each of those instances is an example of cheating. It only indicates what behaviors we have observed. Please don't put words in our mouths. We are asking that YOU discuss and debate which examples, if any, should be considered cheating and what consequences should accompany those that are deemed to be so.

Asking for help IC, no, I don't think should be considered cheating nor punishable with the exception that you are not asking for the answer.

Punishable offenses should not include asking OOC help as they can be as easily manufactured logs and not proven. Same with searching Google - I'm sorry. That's ridiculous. And, further, if a player needs that sort of help then the builder obviously did a _great_ job.

Now, as for the players who don't even _try_, I pity you. Why? Not because you're cheating the game. I could care less if you have to cheat to win. I pity you because you are cheating yourself of a real challenge. You are taking light of something that someone has taken hours upon hours and pouring their very own creativity into. Small slices of their very essence were placed into its design.

What is most important is that everyone does remember this is a game. This is something we do to enjoy and not feel as much stress as the lives we lead. What also is very important to remember is exactly what Rhytania explained. Yes, a wizard may have 18+ int/wis. The player may not. I think this is also something that should be taken into consideration as well. Perhaps, if you want to punish those who are cheating, maybe it would be possible to give hints to those who ICly would never fail a riddle. Perhaps some kind of echoat from the room after the riddle is spoken to give hints to a character of high intellect or of high wisdom (wisdom may simply flat-out know the answer).

I don't know, this is kind of a touchy subject because I used to build for years and I know what kind of labor is involved. It's hard for me, as a player, too to not try to sneak past guards and the like (or, in the case of my last mage, exploiting code to bypass a guard [I'm sorry! I was punished quite severely, though. Definately don't suggest it. ]) just to see the rest of the areas or what's behind that door! [I've learned my lesson. Don't want any other characters unwillingly deleted ]

I am getting off the subject - basically, I believe helping people is great. GIVING them the answer is not so great. Play to have fun, guys. That's all this is about. If you're not having fun, find more people to run around with!

[Lathander]

Selveem said ...

[I've learned my lesson. Don't want any other characters unwillingly deleted ]

See! Consequences CAN be a deterrant! Delete them, delete them ALL!!!! Muhahahaha!

*ahem* Now, back to your regularly scheduled debate.

[Selveem]

Selveem said ...

[I've learned my lesson. Don't want any other characters unwillingly deleted ]

See! Consequences CAN be a deterrant! Delete them, delete them ALL!!!! Muhahahaha!

*ahem* Now, back to your regularly scheduled debate.

Mean.

[Lathander]

I'm closing this particular discussion. Please do not post any more replies.

I am adding a poll with consequence options based on the discussion provided by those who chose to post. Please DO vote, once per player only.

The poll is for IC actions only. I will do another poll in a few days for OOC actions.

[Lathander]

As a consequence for IC sharing riddle quest information, the majority of voters chose....

2a. Warning (only if a direct answer to the riddle is given)

Please take the time to vote in the poll regarding the same issue on an OOC level.

[Lathander]

Locking this topic for the time being. We are considering an entirely different system that may/may not replace strikes. Once that is defined or discarded I'll reopen the rules discussions.